Can FFB wheels cheat the physics engine?

[occasionalracer]

I'd like to ask about what you guys think of this subject, in particular relating to of the 2 newer wheels, the T500RS and the CSRe.

I've read several times that both of these wheels have given some people an immediate improvement in lap times versus their old setup.
What my main question is, could there be a possibility that one wheel gives an unfair advantage, by essentially "stabalizing" the physics engine instantly internally before relaying the "core" of the force feedback/(physics) to the player?

For instance, the initial reviews coming in from CSRe reviewers is that FFB is much more smooth and refined than the more rugged and raw feeling of the T500. Could this mean that wheel manufacturers have the ability to program their wheels driver software, in a manner that does SOME of the physics balancing in real time, giving the player an easier time to drive the same car as with a different wheel, obviously giving a better FFB feel which less "jerky" perhaps?

I know that PC sims allow for a bunch of wheel adjustments that GT5 and other console games don't, but when we're talking about GT5, with no options available, how does this work?

Obviously we know most people who have learned how to use wheels have a clear advantage over pad users, but if you think about it, pad input gets alot of "stabalizing assistance" immediatly, otherwise it would be impossible to drive.
Now when GT detects a wheel, it switches to a setting that bypasses this "stabalizing assistance" but therefore uses FFB system which I believe could be taken slight advantage of (not for the better of course).

What are the guidelines for wheel manufactures for reading the FFB information (of any game) to make it work with their hardware/software? Are there special limits or even "protection" against manipulating the FFB data through software?

I don't know if there have been debates over this subject in the past, especially between the G25/GT2 over the less FFB advanced DFGT, all I can say is going from a G25 to T500 has not resulted in noticeable time gains for me, only more fun gameplay by having a better perception of the balance of the car, resulting in better times through my own driving input... I think.

So, am I thinking about this correctly, or is there NO way wheels could "help" the player by removing some of the game developer's intended physics FFB right inside the wheel??.. I hope I'm making sense...

 

[tikm]

I would believe no, the core physics dont change just the perception given to you of the physics through the whee

Generally better wheel =l better feel = faster lap times

 

[mykem]

I would have to disagree with the "an immediate improvement in lap times versus their old setup." Especially if you like a stronger FFB setup.

About 4 days ago I received my T500RS replacing my aging G25. I kept the FFB at 10 (in GT5) like I did with the G25. I could have lowered the FFB but to me the T500RS FFB doesn't feel that much stronger then the G25- well, it does by the fact that the FFB kept its strength and felt more uniform throughout the steering range.

Because of that it took me a while to adjust to the strength. I can understand people who are moving from a T500RS to a CSR-E and see that their times either drop or remain the same although you can't dismiss the possibility that was more pedal dependant (T500RS pedal vs Fanatec's CS) or that CSR-E's FFB isn't quite as powerful as the T500RS (at least in GT5). But for me moving from a weaker (FFB) G25 to the T500RS made me slower for the first few days.

Now my opinion is that if everything is equal- moving from a lesser wheel to a better wheel- stronger motor and FFB- should make your time slower because it requires more effort from you to steer and counter the FFB. Of course, over time your muscle will adjust but if your time dropped on the first try, something isn't quite right.

 

[occasionalracer]

Generally better wheel =l better feel = faster lap times

I do agree with that, but is "better feel" resulting from

better management of the ffb by the software?

or

better engineering/management of hardware components?

Probably a bit of both...

 

[VWMasteR]

I agree with tikm, with an addition. The wheel doesn't read force feedback from the game. A better way to look at this is that the game outputs the data to the wheel and the wheel "interprets" and relays it to it's outputs for you to interpret. The more accurately your wheel conveys the game developers intentions, the better chance you have of controlling your vehicle. So yes I believe that a wheel can improve your lap times in the long run assuming you understand what it's trying to tell you.

As for whether a driver can correct the physics, would not be passed the information necessary to start correcting your inputs or balance the physics. These drivers are a part of the link though, not all wheel software, hardware and firmware is created equal.

A small comment on the sticks vs controller. One of my fastest friends races sticks instead of a wheel.

 

[occasionalracer]

The more accurately your wheel conveys the game developers intentions, the better chance you have of controlling your vehicle. So yes I believe that a wheel can improve your lap times in the long run assuming you understand what it's trying to tell you.

Well this is exactly how I wish for it to be, but like you say not all driver software is created equal and that's what I'm interested in knowing how "far" these drivers are able to change the FFB that you physically end up feeling.

 

[VWMasteR]

I'm not sure this question can be answered to your satisfaction. It can be complete garbage or amazing. Each wheel mfg will strive to create the best driver they can so that you get the best experience from their product (assuming they care). On consoles however it's a different story as the game developer has more control over this. So you technically could have a dev spend more time and focus with some hardware than others creating a better experience for that product. As far as I know on PC though the hardware developer just uses the games API so each piece of hardware is treated equally from a game perspective. This may not be the case for all games of course.

 

[occasionalracer]

I'm not sure this question can be answered to your satisfaction. It can be complete garbage or amazing. Each wheel mfg will strive to create the best driver they can so that you get the best experience from their product (assuming they care). On consoles however it's a different story as the game developer has more control over this. So you technically could have a dev spend more time and focus with some hardware than others creating a better experience for that product. As far as I know on PC though the hardware developer just uses the games API so each piece of hardware is treated equally from a game perspective. This may not be the case for all games of course.

Lol, I know this is almost impossible to verify and explain without someone chiming in with industry knowledge.. Thomas possibly..

It is perhaps mostly in the hands of the game developer to make everything feel at it's best, and I believe our dear Kazanori is keeping this at the top of his priority list, but still, when wheels start feeling noticebly different, not in strenghth but smoothness, it leads me to believe the software is also "counter calculating" very slightly (and perhaps very intelligently) to achieve this feel.

 

[Troysloth]

I think the 2 of the main factors contributing to the faster times with CSR E wheels are the precision and smoothness.

The precision comes from the sensor being mounted directly to the wheel shaft. Most wheels have the sensor on the FFB motor. No matter how tight your manufacturing tolerances are, there is going to be some play or slop between the steering shaft and FFB motor whether you are using gears or belts. Having the sensor on the steering shaft eliminates all forms of play or slop.

The smoothness comes from having grooved belts instead of toothed belts for the FFB motors. As you turn the wheel on the elite, it is incredibly smooth which has nothing to do with the software or firmware. It is a function of the belts being able to ride smoothly around the pulleys without the notchiness you can feel in toothed belts.

I upgraded from a Turbo S to CSR Elite wheel and those were the biggest things I noticed. It just made it that much easier to run a smooth line through the corners which allowed me to carry more speed onto the straights. All my lap times have improved and I don't think it has anything to do with software.

 

[GTP_Plato]

There are people using older wheels that are a lot faster than other fast people.

Using GT and Forza as an example, You have people like Timppaq on GT who uses a G25, you just have to look at his WRS qualifier lap and compare it to someone like Dan Holland who uses a newer wheel (pretty sure he uses a G27)

As for Forza you have V12 Backone ABS who uses a Fanatec, but there are people just as fast as him using a controller (Daveyskills, GSR Dark Speed and a couple of the TPR guys).

A wheel in my opinion is for people who want a better driving experience, with practice as shown by the names I have listed using controllers you can become just as fast as others that are using the wheel.

Edit: Sorry didn't really answer your question but my answer is obvious. No you can't cheat the physics engine.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

There are people using older wheels that are a lot faster than other fast people.

Using GT and Forza as an example, You have people like Timppaq on GT who uses a G25, you just have to look at his WRS qualifier lap and compare it to someone like Dan Holland who uses a newer wheel (pretty sure he uses a G27)

As for Forza you have V12 Backone ABS who uses a Fanatec, but there are people just as fast as him using a controller (Daveyskills, GSR Dark Speed and a couple of the TPR guys).

A wheel in my opinion is for people who want a better driving experience, with practice as shown by the names I have listed using controllers you can become just as fast as others that are using the wheel.

Dan probably set the time with a DFGT as he used that for many years. He uses a G27 now though, I have recently got a G27 and so far find it a step down in terms of feedback over the DFGT. The WRS qualifier lap is not really a good indication though of speed of the people in the divisions.

There are people who are really fast with a pad in GT too but I think it is generally a lot easier to be faster with a wheel than it is with a pad. For example I was racing Dan and he was using a pad, and I won 4 races in a row against him but to be fair he did hand me one / two victories and was struggling with the pad settings he chose. I never beat him when he used a wheel and in total we have raced 7 times so really only raced 3 times with him using a wheel. I have probably raced only 15 times in total in GT5 so my experience of racing online is not really that great.

A better wheel might add better senses and improve maybe consistency but with most 900 degree wheels, top times attainable should be the same. You have to have amazing pad control to come close to a wheel time or beat one. In FM4 demo with the Zonda R rivals I think I got in the top 800 and that was without clutch use and using a pad but immediately felt that if I had a wheel I would have been much faster as in certain situations I could not do what I wanted that I know I could have done with a wheel due to lack of skill on the pad.

 

[occasionalracer]

There are people using older wheels that are a lot faster than other fast people.

Using GT and Forza as an example, You have people like Timppaq on GT who uses a G25, you just have to look at his WRS qualifier lap and compare it to someone like Dan Holland who uses a newer wheel (pretty sure he uses a G27)

As for Forza you have V12 Backone ABS who uses a Fanatec, but there are people just as fast as him using a controller (Daveyskills, GSR Dark Speed and a couple of the TPR guys).

A wheel in my opinion is for people who want a better driving experience, with practice as shown by the names I have listed using controllers you can become just as fast as others that are using the wheel.

Yes indeed there are people who have mastered pad physics, but at the end of the day they have just understood how to get the best out of the "controller physics".. ie. without feeling the road surface, which to me is questionable and also boring. Do you think these pad masters would be lacking to reach their own times on wheels? Because to me, the easiest way to "cheat" the physics engine is clearly controller use as there is so much stabalizing/equalizing calculations going on.

Talking wheels though, I have no problem with getting a slight advantage through hardware, if indeed the drivers is doing all the work, but it almost sounds as if cars become easier to control with certain wheels.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yes indeed there are people who have mastered pad physics, but at the end of the day they have just understood how to get the best out of the "controller physics".. ie. without feeling the road surface, which to me is questionable and also boring. Do you think these pad masters would be lacking to reach their own times on wheels? Because to me, the easiest way to "cheat" the physics engine is clearly controller use as there is so much stabalizing/equalizing calculations going on.

Talking wheels though, I have no problem with getting a slight advantage through hardware, if indeed the drivers is doing all the work, but it almost sounds as if cars become easier to control with certain wheels.

I have heard of top pad players transition to wheel and found the wheel faster for them.

The only advantage I can think of is in GT5, there could be an advantage of using less steering lock for Formula cars with wheels like DFP and Fanatec. That shortens time to turn the wheel which could result to improved speed. Apart from that, most of going faster with a better wheel goes down to the user itself being better in-tune with the FFB. A faster wheel will help people drifting with a wheel and that is only the other noticable difference I would say and maybe make countersteering a bit easier.

 

[GTP_Plato]

Yes indeed there are people who have mastered pad physics, but at the end of the day they have just understood how to get the best out of the "controller physics".. ie. without feeling the road surface, which to me is questionable and also boring. Do you think these pad masters would be lacking to reach their own times on wheels? Because to me, the easiest way to "cheat" the physics engine is clearly controller use as there is so much stabalizing/equalizing calculations going on.

Talking wheels though, I have no problem with getting a slight advantage through hardware, if indeed the drivers is doing all the work, but it almost sounds as if cars become easier to control with certain wheels.

Depends on what game you are using the wheel on, if it's Forza there are posts from a lot of fast wheel users suggesting that FM4 has become very pad friendly:tup:

 

[occasionalracer]

There are people who are really fast with a pad in GT too but I think it is generally a lot easier to be faster with a wheel than it is with a pad. For example I was racing Dan and he was using a pad, and I won 4 races in a row against him but to be fair he did hand me one / two victories and was struggling with the pad settings he chose. I never beat him when he used a wheel and in total we have raced 7 times so really only raced 3 times with him using a wheel. I have probably raced only 15 times in total in GT5 so my experience of racing online is not really that great.

Totally agree, it's insane how well developed some of these pad user thumbs must be to hang in there with wheel users. I 've completely lost my pad skill and probably wouldn't even care about racing simulations if we didn't have the wheels we have now.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Depends on what game you are using the wheel on, if it's Forza they're are posts from a lot of fast wheel users suggesting that FM4 has become very pad friendly:tup:

I thought Forza has been always pad friendly? The problem I find with pad is how committed you have to be on corner entry and the ability to adjust mid-corner that easily which makes me about a second or two off my wheel times on short circuits. It is more of a problem with faster cars for me though, less of a difference driving slower cars on a pad. Wheel in general though is fastest way to go for most sim racing games.

 

[VWMasteR]

@GTP_Plato
I'm glad you brought controllers up. Soooo many think that if they get a wheel they'll finally be top 100. This is soooo not true.

 

[GTP_Plato]

I thought Forza has been always pad friendly? The problem I find with pad is how committed you have to be on corner entry and the ability to adjust mid-corner that easily which makes me about a second or two off my wheel times on short circuits. It is more of a problem with faster cars for me though, less of a difference driving slower cars on a pad. Wheel in general though is fastest way to go for most sim racing .

Sim steering is a lot easier on the controller compared to the wheel, this feature has helped pad users more than wheel users to go faster. When the demo first came out I experimented with the normal and sim steering features using the pad as I didn't have a wheel at the time, I was nearly half a second faster using sim steering, this was on the Star in a reasonably priced car event.

To me, this feature has helped pad users more than wheel users tremendously as the cars are a lot easier to control on the pad (this was before the game update though). I still here it is very difficult to catch a slide by others, I never really had a problem with this though.

@ VWMaster

Glad you agree, it's down to talent which also brings smoothness and correct racing lines

 

[OlderRacer 1944]

I've said this before in different ways but I convinced that pad users are given an unfair advantage over wheels users. This conclusion is based on watching numerous replays of very fast pad users. First, they are generally all over the track. They can take lines thru corners that are impossible and must be the result of increased tire traction thru the turn. Fast wheel drivers have to be actually good drivers while pad users have to be good at using the advantages the game has built into pad use.

From my observations in replays, I say that pad users outnumber wheel users by something like 20 to 1 or more.

 

[GTP_Plato]

I've said this before in different ways but I convinced that pad users are given an unfair advantage over wheels users. This conclusion is based on watching numerous replays of very fast pad users. First, they are generally all over the track. They can take lines thru corners that are impossible and must be the result of increased tire traction thru the turn. Fast wheel drivers have to be actually good drivers while pad users have to be good at using the advantages the game has built into pad use.

I agree with this but wheel users have an advantage of their own. Using a wheel on tracks with a lot of sweepers will always benefit the wheel, it is far easier to hold a smooth line and have faster cornering speeds.

A good way to test this is by doing laps with the wheel and controller on ovals, the wheel will always be faster in this instance.👍

 

[Saidur_Ali]

@GTP_Plato
I'm glad you brought controllers up. Soooo many think that if they get a wheel they'll finally be top 100. This is soooo not true.

Depends if the pad player is within a second or two of the top wheel users. I got a wheel and found myself in the top 100 more easily while getting in top 400 was hard for me with a pad with a lot more experience.

Sim steering is a lot easier on the controller compared to the wheel, this feature has helped pad users more than wheel users to go faster. When the demo first came out I experimented with the normal and sim steering features using the pad as I didn't have a wheel at the time, I was nearly half a second faster using sim steering, this was on the Star in a reasonably priced car event.

To me, this feature has helped pad users more than wheel users tremendously as the cars are a lot easier to control on the pad (this was before the game update though). I still here it is very difficult to catch a slide by others, I never really had a problem with this though.

@ VWMaster

Glad you agree, it's down to talent which also brings smoothness and correct racing lines

If you turn the steering to 270 degrees on your Fanatec, sim steering is probably just as easy with a wheel. Try it. I have never tried normal steering as I only spent a few hours on the FM4 demo.

I've said this before in different ways but I convinced that pad users are given an unfair advantage over wheels users. This conclusion is based on watching numerous replays of very fast pad users. First, they are generally all over the track. They can take lines thru corners that are impossible and must be the result of increased tire traction thru the turn. Fast wheel drivers have to be actually good drivers while pad users have to be good at using the advantages the game has built into pad use.

From my observations in replays, I say that pad users outnumber wheel users by something like 20 to 1 or more.

Depends on what game, if it is GT then wheel users definately have an advantage to drive faster with ease.

 

[skazz]

I think it's worth adding the whole "immersion versus pure speed" element into this discussion: There are plenty of PC simracers who deliberately play with FFB disabled (just a bit of center spring) since they feel that the FFB just gets in the way of optimal laptimes. Often they are types who are used to running without decent FFB having been simracing since long before FFB wheels were available. Heck there are even some very expensive high end wheels without FFB still purchaseable today.
Of course, there are many other simracers who hate not having FFB since the immersion factor and the feedback helps them in keeping the car under control. And these days FFB quality is getting so good that most of the "old fogies" are coming over to use FFB I think

Personally I've owned various different FFB wheels so far, and I'd say that there are two types of "progression" when moving up to a new wheel. Sometimes the change is more of a sidegrade, where you get some improvements but also lose some things. Sometimes the change is purely an upgrade, where you get only improvements. This is logical when you think about it: Each wheel uses a different drive system, has different firmware optimized for different things, has different support in software (either within the sim on the console or in the PC drivers).

Only when you make a big jump "up the food chain" do you get a situation that you are not swapping one set of compromises for another. And only in that case should you really find yourself getting lap time improvements purely as a result of the wheel.