Choosing a car for PP limit

[JKgo]

..........Well, I mostly use road cars in GT6. Racecars, I only dust them off my Stockyard once seasonals roll in.

The recent Nurburgring seasonal got me thinking though - is it better to use a car with a lower PP, which is then tuned to achieve the max pp level, or grab a high pp car then reduce its pp level to match the race limit???

To see what's what, I used a Z4 GT3, which has 600pp after oil change. Was tougher than I expected, but passed lead car right before the final chicane to grab a narrow win. Next, I went with F1 base model - its pp lowered to 600 - traffic interferred but had a noticeably quicker time.
I tried various other cars - Lister, Honda HSV, Gillet....and got a mixed bag of cookies.

So, my question is, I repeat: Is it better to use a car that's been "tuned up" to meet the pp limit, or is it more sensible to drive one that's been "tuned down"??

 

[FerrariFXX 07]

Tuned down is best for me
(Ex : 2J (always a winner at 600pp), R18, Toyota Ts030 hybrid etc)

 

[JayOTT]

There is no correct answer. There's a lot more to whether or not a car is fast for it's PP rating than tuning up vs tuning down;

- Whilst actual downforce was removed from the PP calculations in GT6, potential downforce still seems to have an effect on the PP rating. Mechanical grip by contrast seems to have little effect on PP. An example of this is that the Chaparral 2J is amazing for 600-700PP racing, because it gets all of it's grip from a suction fan rather than through conventional downforce, whereas the DeltaWing's by contrast are absymal for their PP rating due to having a lot of potential downforce but little mechanical grip. Similarly, the Super GT cars are slightly faster than GT3 cars when both are stock, but have a lower PP rating, because GT3 cars have higher potential downforce, whilst Super GT cars are fast due to superior mechanical grip.

- Horsepower has a large effect in the PP formula, but weight seems to have a relatively small effect. As such, cars that are powerful but also heavy, such as NASCARS and the Bugatti Veyron, tend to have bloated PP ratings, whilst a lighter car, for example the 95' McLaren F1 GTR, can have a lower PP rating but be much faster in practice.

- Torque also seems to play a role in the PP formula. This would explain why the Audi R18 TDI has 11 PP more than the Toyota TS030 despite only being 3 hp more powerful. It would also seem that KERS isn't considered in the PP formula, despite the fact that the KERS system is what makes the TS030 slightly faster than the Audi R18 in practice.

In short, it's not so much tuning up vs tuning down as it is finding a package that outsmarts the PP formula. Light with lots of mechanical grip seems to be the way to go.

 

[JKgo]

There is no correct answer. There's a lot more to whether or not a car is fast for it's PP rating than tuning up vs tuning down;

- Whilst actual downforce was removed from the PP calculations in GT6, potential downforce still seems to have an effect on the PP rating. Mechanical grip by contrast seems to have little effect on PP. An example of this is that the Chaparral 2J is amazing for 600-700PP racing, because it gets all of it's grip from a suction fan rather than through conventional downforce, whereas the DeltaWing's by contrast are absymal for their PP rating due to having a lot of potential downforce but little mechanical grip. Similarly, the Super GT cars are slightly faster than GT3 cars when both are stock, but have a lower PP rating, because GT3 cars have higher potential downforce, whilst Super GT cars are fast due to superior mechanical grip.

- Horsepower has a large effect in the PP formula, but weight seems to have a relatively small effect. As such, cars that are powerful but also heavy, such as NASCARS and the Bugatti Veyron, tend to have bloated PP ratings, whilst a lighter car, for example the 95' McLaren F1 GTR, can have a lower PP rating but be much faster in practice.

- Torque also seems to play a role in the PP formula. This would explain why the Audi R18 TDI has 11 PP more than the Toyota TS030 despite only being 3 hp more powerful. It would also seem that KERS isn't considered in the PP formula, despite the fact that the KERS system is what makes the TS030 slightly faster than the Audi R18 in practice.

In short, it's not so much tuning up vs tuning down as it is finding a package that outsmarts the PP formula. Light with lots of mechanical grip seems to be the way to go.

..........Thanks for that explanation. I kinda see what ya mean there: used that incorrectly-weighted Lister and was a fair ol' struggle, even with hp boost. BUT on the other hand, that flyweight Gillet, with HP turned waaay down, was still a slow nut to spin 'round the 'Ring. Could it be that certain configuration of cars are greatly favored over others? Mc F1s are always considerably quicker than their "peers" in similar pp range.....

 

[Polsixe]

It seems there is more success with tuning down rather than tuning up. Torque and horsepower curves become flat lines and may give some low rpm benefits. But tuning down is not realistic, I'm not sure there are many racing series or classes where that is allowed or practiced. Usually a racer will tune a ride up, to the max allowed.

 

[JayOTT]

My only explanation for the Gillet Vertigo is that it may not have the mechanical grip you would expect a racing car to have. It does have all the other ingredients for success in the performance point formula, but sometimes cars just don't add up to the sum of their parts, so to speak.

As a side note, there are occasional outliers in the PP formula that I can't adequately explain with the knowledge about the formula that I have or assume to be true. Take the Nissan GT-R NISMO vs the TommyKaira ZZII for instance. The GT-R has 49hp and 11.6kg/m more power and torque, and more modern technology, but the ZZII is a whopping 720kg lighter, and has 180 more points of potential downforce (both cars have 120-200 stock but the ZZII can have up to 150-350 through car settings). With that in mind I struggle to see how the ZZII is only rated at 572 PP stock, whilst the GT-R is rated 574 PP.

 

[watermelon punch]

On average, I think it works best to choose a car that's already NEAR whatever given PP to begin with.
I've seen others say this so though I'm not sure this is always the case, it seems to be a lot of the time, that a car will be better at a given PP tuned, if it's already near that PP to begin with.

And obviously it depends on what you're doing.
Like the 2J tuned down to ace a career/seasonal to just get your prize over with.
Or PP lobbies which have a rule about how much you can power limit - so you won't be able to choose a car that you'd be down-tuning a whole lot.

But just as a general rule... (just picking numbers at random here...)
If one car starts out stock around 450pp, it's going to be better even in stock condition, than most tuned cars that start out at around 400pp and are tuned up to 450pp. And given that if you allow tuning, both cars would be tuned, there would be no question that almost always, the car that starts out near that PP will be the better performer at that PP.

 

[JKgo]

On average, I think it works best to choose a car that's already NEAR whatever given PP to begin with.
I've seen others say this so though I'm not sure this is always the case, it seems to be a lot of the time, that a car will be better at a given PP tuned, if it's already near that PP to begin with.

And obviously it depends on what you're doing.
Like the 2J tuned down to ace a career/seasonal to just get your prize over with.
Or PP lobbies which have a rule about how much you can power limit - so you won't be able to choose a car that you'd be down-tuning a whole lot.

But just as a general rule... (just picking numbers at random here...)
If one car starts out stock around 450pp, it's going to be better even in stock condition, than most tuned cars that start out at around 400pp and are tuned up to 450pp. And given that if you allow tuning, both cars would be tuned, there would be no question that almost always, the car that starts out near that PP will be the better performer at that PP.

..........I see what you are getting at there; although from my own experience, this hasn't been always true. An example I can think of right now is my very purple DB9 - with oil change only, it sits around 500pp range and, dunno if it's my driving or what, I could better its time on Apricot with whole bunch of lower pp cars in stock tune. Nissan 370Z for instance - I absolutely refuse to call it Fairlady - I can muster up similar time to DB9, quite easily...

 

[ZBAT]

..........I see what you are getting at there; although from my own experience, this hasn't been always true. An example I can think of right now is my very purple DB9 - with oil change only, it sits around 500pp range and, dunno if it's my driving or what, I could better its time on Apricot with whole bunch of lower pp cars in stock tune. Nissan 370Z for instance - I absolutely refuse to call it Fairlady - I can muster up similar time to DB9, quite easily...

I experience this same exact circumstance. You have to account for the drivetrain, weight distribution, and individual characteristics of each of the power upgrades. The PP system isn't perfect, and won't ever be perfect simply due to the fact that you're working with telemetry characteristics that are being manipulated in ways that far surpass what would be possible in real life. That being said, you ain got a purple burple an its battin down the hatches from heer!!@!

 

[watermelon punch]

..........I see what you are getting at there; although from my own experience, this hasn't been always true. An example I can think of right now is my very purple DB9 - with oil change only, it sits around 500pp range and, dunno if it's my driving or what, I could better its time on Apricot with whole bunch of lower pp cars in stock tune. Nissan 370Z for instance - I absolutely refuse to call it Fairlady - I can muster up similar time to DB9, quite easily...

So that is where you have to distinguish cars by CLASS.

It didn't occur to me that it wasn't already understood that you have to take class into account FIRST.

And that PP does NOT acknowledge class at all. It's HUGELY flawed in that to begin with.

Besides, whatever kind of racing you're doing, CLASS should be the first notion when choosing a car, right, before you start thinking about PP?

The DB9 is a big heavy, essentially luxury car with heaps of power, and the Fairlady is a a sports car.
Same way you can't compare a kei car to a hot hatch.
Or a race car to a roadster.
Or a muscle car to a super car.

Also you wouldn't compare a vintage sports car from the 60s to a performance sports car from 2012.

You wouldn't take a supercar to a hot hatch race.
Well... some people would, but they'd be kicked out right after someone called them an 🤬.

 

[JKgo]

So that is where you have to distinguish cars by CLASS.

It didn't occur to me that it wasn't already understood that you have to take class into account FIRST.

And that PP does NOT acknowledge class at all. It's HUGELY flawed in that to begin with.

Besides, whatever kind of racing you're doing, CLASS should be the first notion when choosing a car, right, before you start thinking about PP?

The DB9 is a big heavy, essentially luxury car with heaps of power, and the Fairlady is a a sports car.
Same way you can't compare a kei car to a hot hatch.
Or a race car to a roadster.
Or a muscle car to a super car.

Also you wouldn't compare a vintage sports car from the 60s to a performance sports car from 2012.

You wouldn't take a supercar to a hot hatch race.
Well... some people would, but they'd be kicked out right after someone called them an 🤬.

.......Hmm, class, eh? I gotta admit, I always figured Aston would be seen as a sports car, since things like luxury doesn't matter in a game like GT.

 

[watermelon punch]

Here's some examples of different types of cars at around the same PP range

Jaguar S-Type R '02
489pp

Ferrari 512BB '76
488pp

Plymouth Superbird '70
487pp

Aston Martin DB7 Vantage Coupe '00
490pp

Opera Performance 350Z '04
491pp

Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack '71
486pp

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII RS '03
486pp

.......Hmm, class, eh? I gotta admit, I always figured Aston would be seen as a sports car, since things like luxury doesn't matter in a game like GT.

The 300C
(464pp)

 

[JKgo]

.......Ooooh, a list of cars. Haven't tried out that Ferrari nor the Opera yet - but now you mention it, Jag S type was a pig to drive...no traction, sport hard in London was a real nerve-wrecker. But fun. Oh yes...

 

[JayOTT]

I'd just like to add that your very purple Aston Martin DB9 has a kerb weight of 1710kg stock, so you struggling with it relative to other cars at it's PP level would be consistent with the theme in my previous two posts of heavy cars struggling to match their lighter counterparts at the same PP level.

Of course, being ultra-light is no guarantee that a car will perform well for it's performance points, as the car in question may have other handling problems. But it's not merely coincidence that many of the top performers at each PP level, especially the four wheel motorcycle aka the Suzuki GSX/R-4 at 500 PP, tend to be lightweight on the scales.

I'm sorry if this post made me sound like a broken record.