Confusion on Toe Settings [Solved]

[LeGeNd-1]

For no reason, I started reading the scrolling explanations for tuning today (does anybody ever read those? ). Being a not-so-good tuner myself, I got confused with the descriptions for toe tuning.

I've always thought it's like this (I know the effects are more varied, and front and rear have different effects, this is just my generalised view):

/ \ Front positive negative > More straight line stability and reduced turn-in response
\ / Rear negative positive > More grip in corners (i.e. less understeer/more oversteer)

\ / Front negative positive > Less straight line stability and increased turn-in response
/ \ Rear positive negative > Less grip in corners (i.e. more understeer/less oversteer)

However, in the scrolling text the effects are reversed. I'm not sure if this is a mistype, PD decides to reverse the settings for some reason, or I've been wrong all this time???

I've tested the effects myself, and from what I can feel PD's description (scrolling text) is the correct one. But this may just be a placebo effect so I'm still not sure. Can someone with more knowledge/better tuning skills enlighten me on this?

Thanks

Edit: I have corrected the above diagrams to portray the correct relationships between tire orientation, toe sign and effects on car handling.

 

[peterjford]

maybe PD got the positive vs. negative wrong... I guess I could look it up, but I can give you a couple of others thing that toe does.

On a mid/rear engine car you can have lift throttle oversteer. Increased rear toe (front of tires pointing in) can reduce this.

Front and rear toe close to zero can increase straight line speed, but you do get a little less turn-in and possibly more oversteer. So you can get oversteer during deceleration, understeer on turn-in, and oversteer again on corner exit.

In real world tuning you have to take into account the fact that the toe is going to be dynamic. It will be affected by acceleration, deceleration, suspension travel and cornering forces. But I don't think the physics in the game are that exact (or confusing).

 

[GTveteran]

It is supposed to work the way you describe. If you put the rear tyres in on a rear wheel drive car (as they are supposed to be set anyway to counteract drag on the wheels and so that they are straight at high speed.) then the tendancy to oversteer by spinning up the rear wheels is increased. The trouble is, to cancel it out you have to toe out the wheels which increases understeer.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

maybe PD got the positive vs. negative wrong... I guess I could look it up, but I can give you a couple of others thing that toe does.

On a mid/rear engine car you can have lift throttle oversteer. Increased rear toe (front of tires pointing in) can reduce this.

Front and rear toe close to zero can increase straight line speed, but you do get a little less turn-in and possibly more oversteer. So you can get oversteer during deceleration, understeer on turn-in, and oversteer again on corner exit.

In real world tuning you have to take into account the fact that the toe is going to be dynamic. It will be affected by acceleration, deceleration, suspension travel and cornering forces. But I don't think the physics in the game are that exact (or confusing).

What you're saying is how I thought it would be. But the game text says otherwise. Maybe it's just a mix up between positive and negative values like you said (they did this wrong in GT2 as well I believe).

It is supposed to work the way you describe. If you put the rear tyres in on a rear wheel drive car (as they are supposed to be set anyway to counteract drag on the wheels and so that they are straight at high speed.) then the tendancy to oversteer by spinning up the rear wheels is increased. The trouble is, to cancel it out you have to toe out the wheels which increases understeer.

If the effects you mentioned happen at corner entry, then your definition is consistent with mine. But if it occurs mid-corner, you match the in-game description. Which one are you referring to?

I just checked Scaff's GT4 tuning guide btw, and it got me even more confused now. It says toe-in is negative values, and toe-out is positive values . I always thought it's reversed! The game's definition also says it's reversed. If I disregard the signs (+/-), the effects are consistent with mine. But if I disregard the orientation (in/out), the effects are consistent with the game.

Bottomline, I think I got the orientation and signs mixed up. If I use toe-in = negative and toe-out = positive, all 3 effects match (Scaff's, game's and mine). But it still doesn't explain why in-game it says toe-in = positive and toe-out = negative. Mistype is all I can say...

 

[easyasashii]

For no reason, I started reading the scrolling explanations for tuning today (does anybody ever read those? ). Being a not-so-good tuner myself, I got confused with the descriptions for toe tuning.

I've always thought it's like this (I know the effects are more varied, and front and rear have different effects, this is just my generalised view):

/ \ Front positive > More straight line stability and reduced turn-in response
\ / Rear negative > More grip in corners (i.e. less understeer/more oversteer)

\ / Front negative > Less straight line stability and increased turn-in response
/ \ Rear positive > Less grip in corners (i.e. more understeer/less oversteer)

However, in the scrolling text the effects are reversed. I'm not sure if this is a mistype, PD decides to reverse the settings for some reason, or I've been wrong all this time???

I've tested the effects myself, and from what I can feel PD's description (scrolling text) is the correct one. But this may just be a placebo effect so I'm still not sure. Can someone with more knowledge/better tuning skills enlighten me on this?

Thanks

We have the same problem with the french version : the scrolling text is saying a + value is a toe-out ! Glubags and I spoke about this a lot during GT Planet Worldwide Member Time Attack Challenge Season Two, I also spoke about this in the official forum, and given that almost all of the car have a default +0.20 rear toe in both versions (US and Eur -I thought there might have been a difference in the versions), we reached to the conclusion that a toe-in is a + value and toe-out a - value, problem of translation to be polite, PD mistake to speak the truth ! I wrote a letter to PD, no answer !

I'm not a great tuner either so I just set this toe to 0 -no mistakes - and work with the other settings available !

Good luck with the tuning ! I read those scrolling text too, even copied them !

What about joining us for some Time Attack Challenges ???

 

[LeGeNd-1]

We have the same problem with the french version : the scrolling text is saying a + value is a toe-out ! Glubags and I spoke about this a lot during GT Planet Worldwide Member Time Attack Challenge Season Two, I also spoke about this in the official forum, and given that almost all of the car have a default +0.20 rear toe in both versions (US and Eur -I thought there might have been a difference in the versions), we reached to the conclusion that a toe-in is a + value and toe-out a - value, problem of translation to be polite, PD mistake to speak the truth ! I wrote a letter to PD, no answer !

I'm not a great tuner either so I just set this toe to 0 -no mistakes - and work with the other settings available !

Good luck with the tuning ! I read those scrolling text too, even copied them !

What about joining us for some Time Attack Challenges ???

For the highlighted part, I think you contradicted yourself there. Shouldn't the first one read "+ value is a toe-in"?

I find toe toe be really helpful sometimes, so I really want to get this right.

For the TA Challenges, I wish I could, but I only play GTPSP sporadically theses days. Combination of life/work/school/other PS3 games makes my PSP gaming time very limited. And I don't like doing something when I don't put my best efforts in it. So yeah...during the holidays I might have time for a couple of challenges, but no promises 👍.

 

[easyasashii]

For the highlighted part, I think you contradicted yourself there. Shouldn't the first one read "+ value is a toe-in"?

Nope ! That's EXACTLY what I mean, huge mistake from PD that gave me a lots of headaches : the french version -text in french- says that a + value is a toe-out whereas in the english version -english text- it says a + value is a toe-in ! PD is contradicting itself, that's the thing !

But I think I misread your problem : I thought you have a problem with what the text is saying and what it should says whereas it was more about the effects, right ?

Here is some links I found useful :
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_(automotive)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_dynamics
- https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=145
- https://www.gtplanet.net/guides/index.php/Gran_Turismo_4_:_Car_Settings
- http://www.gpfun.net/public/downloads/files/Docs/Four-Wheel-Drift.pdf
- http://www.gtvault.com/gt4/car-list/
- http://diy-racetuning.net/index.html (great read this DYI -great lessons about vehicule dynamics-, even if it is for Forza !!! Website found thanks to this thread)


Hope this is helpful !!! Good luck with this !

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Nope ! That's EXACTLY what I mean, huge mistake from PD that gave me a lots of headaches : the french version -text in french- says that a + value is a toe-out whereas in the english version -english text- it says a + value is a toe-in ! PD is contradicting itself, that's the thing !

Ah, I see...Such a headache lol. Thanks for clarifying .

But I think I misread your problem : I thought you have a problem with what the text is saying and what it should says whereas it was more about the effects, right ?

No, I had both problems. I'm confused with the accuracy of the text (i.e. what it is saying in-game and what it should be in real life). And since I'm not 100% sure with toe tuning in the first place, the text mismatch made me confused by what effects are produced by toe +/- on front and rear wheels respectively (since the game description is the opposite of what I believe so far).

Anyway, I think I've cleared my confusion:

Bottomline, I think I got the orientation and signs mixed up. If I use toe-in = negative and toe-out = positive, all 3 effects match (Scaff's, game's and mine). But it still doesn't explain why in-game it says toe-in = positive and toe-out = negative. Mistype is all I can say...

So if you see my diagram on the first post, / \ becomes negative and \ / becomes positive. I was right about the effects of orientation, but I mixed up the relationship between orientation and toe-sign. That's why I got confused.

Thanks for the links btw, got them all bookmarked for reading at my leisure .

 

[easyasashii]

You're welcome... And I do understand you, I've been there too !

We also tried to see the difference between toes thanks to the Ferrari F2007, driver's view but I wasn't 100% sure and still confused about the effect !

I'm not a tuning gifted man, it is hard for me to feel the car or give the right solution to a problem so I tried to trust PD but then found out it's contradicting itself !!!

Conclusion, Toe set to 0, I've got to find other way to "correct" the car and myself -sometimes I do try some positive or negative toe, I'll keep the one that makes me running faster, I don't overthink the process : more time on the road !-

I'll see more about the toe "black art" once I have GT5 + steering wheels because the psp opus... not good for me with all this toe thing !

Have a nice day / evening !

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Haha, thanks mate .

For the F2007 I found the effects are exactly as I described in the first post (edited to make it correct, btw). I find it easier to feel the effects with an F1 car than a road car, since the limits are so narrow (little changes have large impacts). I had mine set-up as front negative and rear positive (both max values).

I've never been into tuning myself. In GT1/2 I always thought once your driving skills reach a certain high enough level, you can compensate for any car behaviour using your skills. This works for GT1/2, but since getting GT5P 1.5 years ago I've hit a wall. Hard.

No matter how hard I tried, I cannot win any of the S events, with any car. Then I decided to give the tunes posted here a go, and in an instant I'm shaving seconds off my laptimes. With proper tuning, the car gets faster and more easy to drive (so you can push more and get even faster). It's a double win.

Since then I've decided to take tuning seriously; since skill alone is no longer a guarantee to be fast. I'm learning slowly, but the results are beginning to show. My main problem is patience though, as I'm not the type that can do hundreds of laps just to get a gear ratio exactly spot on . Like you said, I too prefer racing. But my "skill-only" motto from my old days have helped me a lot in this respect, since I am very good at getting a feel for a car within a short time, and know what's wrong with its balance. I just need to learn what to change in what case .

 

[easyasashii]

[...] since I am very good at getting a feel for a car within a short time, and know what's wrong with its balance. I just need to learn what to change in what case .

Lucky you !!!

Me too, the more I learn about tuning, the more I think I understand but from theory to practice, the gap is too wide for me yet : I don't know where to start !

I hit a wall too when I first started TAC here (season 2), it was clear for me that only depending on my driving skills won't be enough, started to learn -and still in learning process- and I saw all the great things you can have thanks to tuning : even if it is only hundredths, it can makes the difference ! Other problem I have : I'm not consistent enough, I will have 3 rubbish laps for one good ! Hard to tune in that case too, right ! But that doesn't stop me from racing and one day I might be able to do greater things !!!

Moreover, luckily for us, we have great members who are willing to share their tuning approach and thanks to that, we can put out better times 👍 !

Hope to see you in the TAC once in a while, I'm curious to know what you could do !

 

[easyasashii]

Here too they're speaking about toe... :

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3895164

 

[GTveteran]

If the effects you mentioned happen at corner entry, then your definition is consistent with mine. But if it occurs mid-corner, you match the in-game description. Which one are you referring to?

These effects can occur anywhere in a corner. At entry they mean as you turn in and in mid corner they mean where you apply the power. But of course if you're still turning when you apply the power then because the wheels are easier to spin up and you've got the increased turn in potential of the toed in (negative toe! ) wheels, then your gonna have some sideways fun.

I wouldn't take the ingame description as gospel too much. There are a fair few mistakes in it as I'm sure you know.