Continuation of Camry vs Fusion et al Discussion

[1X83Z]

I like how every time I propose a viewpoint alternate to what the magazines say, I get personally flamed and blamed for starting fights.

Eh?

Hey - the COTY designation applies to the whole range, from the bad 4-cylinder model to the bad 6-cylinder model.

Unsurprisingly, you missed my point:
That the inclusion of its hybrid tech was no reason to give Car of the Year to the Camry over a couple of other far better cars,

That's your opinion and one I personally do not share. That the Camry offers many engine choices is one of its virtues - the Optima could aspire to do the same rather than "slow 4-cylinder" and "slow 6-cylinder."

I drive a 1994 S-10 Blazer. Far removed from 20 years old, and very capable of going over 60 MPH. I use it to go off road and get to and from school and my job. I couldn't give two ****s how fast it can get to 60, or how fast it can run a slalom. I bought it from my parents because it was good off-road.

So you insult a car that I like and then drive a car that you defend before I even insult it? Give me a break. Just like you have your reasons for buying your S-10 Blazer, I would have had my reasons for buying that Buick, and there's no point in getting personal under those circumstances. Presumably you realize that now. And may CONTINUE to remind you that I'm no longer in the market for that or any Buick.

Actually, it is quite relavent. You advised against YSSMAN alternative of buying Impala because it was an insipid piece of trash. The fact that you even considered buying a Buick Regal shows that you have a double standard, if only to piss people off.

No - I advised the thread's starter against buying an Impala because it's an insipid pile of trash. Which it is. There's a difference between the Regal, which is the quickest recent 4-door sedan for its price (which, may I remind you, is less than $10k), and the Impala, which brings absolutely nothing to the table except cheap plastics and a tired design.

Either way, I don't see how my own vehicle choices are relevant to the thread - surely, you can offer an opinion about a car without owning a similar car. You do it often. So do I.

And you understand that not everyone gives a crap, right?

Look - I accept the fact that many people don't really care about horsepower, when we're talking the difference between 220 and 260. But the Optima is so incredibly behind the class with 185 horsepower that I'm still waiting for Kia to throw the 3.3-liter engine into the thing. I honestly can't believe the car is what it is considering the horsepower game going on in the midsize sedan class. It's no surprise at all to me that the car isn't even selling as well as the prior model.

 

[skip0110]

I like how every time I propose a viewpoint alternate to what the magazines say, I get personally flamed and blamed for starting fights.

I for one enjoy the discussion we have here so I hope everyone keeps it above board even if it does get heated. 👍

Hey - the COTY designation applies to the whole range, from the bad 4-cylinder model to the bad 6-cylinder model.

I did post a V6 interior, but you posted an interior from the previous generation.

The previous generation did have a crummy interior, but all sorts of pundits have complemented the fit and finish of the new car.

No - I advised the thread's starter against buying an Impala because it's an insipid pile of trash. Which it is. There's a difference between the Regal, which is the quickest recent 4-door sedan for its price (which, may I remind you, is less than $10k), and the Impala, which brings absolutely nothing to the table except cheap plastics and a tired design.

The Impala is the size of the Avalon for the price of the Camry. Actually, a fair price comparison pits V6 Impala against I4 Camry--when in fact the Impala is closer to the Avalon in size and features. That's what it brings to the table.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edm...100699452&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=print

 

[JCE]

Wooo, I'm enjoying this discussion.

Now let's get on the subject of that comparo.

Fusion FTW!

But here's something interesting. clicky

Quite an interesting read.

 

[skip0110]

But here's something interesting. clicky

Quite an interesting read.

WTH Hyundai's math is wrong...they declare they have an advantage in several places where they do not. Like city fuel economy, 24 mpg Hyundai to 26 mpg Honda. Or MSRP, where the Fusion wins.

 

[JCE]

Yea, I found that a bit misleading.

Here's a comparo of some other vehicles. Sonata, Altima, Fusion, and Aura clicky

*edit*
Wow that Altima has some serious grunt for a 4cyl.

*edit x2*
Wow that Altima has some seriously good gas mileage for being more powerful.

 

[YSSMAN]

To be honest, I don't even know where to start on this one. The senseless bickering between all of us has pretty much lead us nowhere, not even close to a small consensus in any way of measurement. Now, arguably this is between the Camry and the Fusion, however with the added models of the Optima and whatnot, there are quite a few paths to go down.

...What I would care to note is the fact that I have indeed had seat-time with an '07 Toyota Camry, and by all-means, we can quote magazines and articles as much as we want, actually seeing and touching the car in question certainly helps in your estimation of the vehicle...

Simply put, I found the Camry to be completely underwhelming by every measurement, even compared to my Mother's two-generation-past '95 Camry. Simply put, I'd like to know what happened to that "Toyota-Grade" build quality that they constantly brag about. I hadn't seen an interior that cheap in a while, at least not in a Toyota, and pieces felt more like they came straight out of a Power Wheel that belongs to my Brother and Sister. The dashboard is reminiscent of GM quality as of late, and that certainly doesn't help to hide the fact that although it may be "reliable," it certainly didn't feel that way.

The drive itself was about as boring as taking an SAT test. Turn the key, put it in drive, hit the gas and go. There wasn't anything interesting about the car whatsoever. I found the seats to be uncomfortable both in front and in back, and although there was plenty of room, that is for the most part what the Camry is good for. Transporting the family. Wooo. Lets have millions of Americans go out and buy a pile of crap!

What it comes down to is that while Motor Trend plays kiss-ass with Toyota, the rest of the automotive world has been ready to deal a heavy-hand against the car. One of the best reviews of the Toyota against anything has to be the recent "Double Take" done by AutoWeek, in which they compared the Camry SE against Aura XR. Sure, the Camry was the winner when it came to most performance tests, but the lack of feel combined with the loss in "perfection" that Toyota had seemed to chase after for so long made it a loser in the end.

...Now we can run about hooting and hollering about the other cars in the segment, and to be honest that would be a lot of fun. But when it comes down to it, the Camry is in an increasingly hostile market that demands greater increases not only in functionality and reliability, but also sporty driving combined with attractive looks and an attractive price. Simply put, the Camry lacks a lot of that.

 

[JCE]

No Camry I've ever driven--and I've driven every generation--has been an enjoyable experience. Yes they are comfortable, yes they are reliable, yes they are reletively cheap enough, and yes they even have tons of space...but seriously it has been and always will be the most boring saloon car ever. My roomate's Kia Optima is more fun to drive (when she lets me drive it).

 

[1X83Z]

I did post a V6 interior, but you posted an interior from the previous generation.

You're right - I honestly thought I was posting a base-model present-generation interior. Not so.

The Impala is the size of the Avalon for the price of the Camry. Actually, a fair price comparison pits V6 Impala against I4 Camry--when in fact the Impala is closer to the Avalon in size and features. That's what it brings to the table.

A couple problems:
1. The Camry has more rear seat room. Not a huge victory, but if I'm getting the Impala for its large size, shouldn't I expect a car that's larger in every category?
2. The Altima is larger than the Impala in every category except cargo volume (by less than one cubic foot). Yet the Altima is a foot shorter in overall length, which is an advantage. What does the Impala bring to that table?

But here's something interesting. clicky

Quite an interesting read.

In my view, comparing 4-cylinder midsize sedans is stupid. I made a comparison between the base Ford Fusion and the top-level Nissan Versa in the prior thread, and the Versa won in every single measurable category. There's just no point in getting a stripped-down midsize when you could get a loaded small for a lot cheaper without sacrificing just about anything.

No Camry I've ever driven--and I've driven every generation--has been an enjoyable experience.

Same, and the same goes for the Lexus versions, however I will say that given that the present SE model does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and includes 17-inch alloys and sport suspension, it's got to be at least a little on the fun side.

 

[1X83Z]

I hadn't seen an interior that cheap in a while, at least not in a Toyota, and pieces felt more like they came straight out of a Power Wheel that belongs to my Brother and Sister.

I too have been in the car for some time and simply put I completely disagree. So I guess that's an opinion issue.

The drive itself was about as boring as taking an SAT test.

Easy criticism to level. It's a midsize sedan - its goal isn't to excite, like the Altima, but to have mass appeal. It does that well. And before you say, 'well the Fusion has driver appeal' let's get serious - in sporty spec, the Camry runs 17-inch alloys, sport suspension, and an engine that propels it to 60mph in under 6 seconds. Under six seconds!!! If you can't find that drive gratifying, you're clearly used to driving much better cars than I.

...the Camry is in an increasingly hostile market that demands greater increases not only in functionality and reliability, but also sporty driving combined with attractive looks and an attractive price. Simply put, the Camry lacks a lot of that.

This is a statement I can agree with strongly - all great empires will fall, and I think we're witnessing the demise of the Camry. However, we're looking at the wrong generation - the failure of the Camry really is due to the '02-'06 models, which are the ones that completely missed the mark.

 

[Kent]

Every Toyota car gets so much of a similar review that I have lost all faith in reviews.
I find the automotive industry to be riddled with bias and predictability.

Let me predict the future now...
The next Toyota to be reviewed will be rated poorly for "Boring" drving feel.

 

[TopHat]

In all honesty, I thought the Camry's interior was nice if you didn't really inspect it. But when you got close, It was lightyears behind A Hyundai Sonata. But thats just my opinion.

 

[YSSMAN]

My test whenever I get in a car is to push all the buttons, knock on the panels, bend the plastic pieces to test the stiffness, etc. Simply put, the Camry didn't satisfy my expectations for a car circa 2007, especially when compared to my Mom's 1995 Camry. That feels like it was screwed together a lot better, and it is twelve years old now...

I just find the car to be a big disappointment. M5Power is right that the last generation has basically lead us to this, a steaming pile of crap IMO, as the last of the "good" Camrys died in 2001. Oh well. You can't be a winner forever.

 

[JCE]

Oh well. You can't be a winner forever.

Yes you can. My evidence?

1984:

1989:

1995 (this is exactly what my '95 SE looked like):

2000:

2007:

Maxima FTW!

 

[YSSMAN]

I can't stand the current Maximas. They drive me crazy. They are in no-way any kind of successor to the "4DSC" ideals. Odd, coming from someone who has pretty much always liked the Maxima. The new car is pretty ugly, and generally speaking, really doesn't out-perform the Altima 3.5 SE in any way. Beyond that, I'd rather spend the couple extra bucks and get the G35 by the time you've speced a nicely-equipped Maxima SE...

 

[JCE]

Its got a nice engine, it has an awsome interior, it has plenty of space (more than the G35 and Altima), and most importantly it isn't a Toyota Camry. The looks are subjective--but taking the exterior out of the equasion you can't deny that the 2004-2007 Maxima isn't at least a decent value.

 

[Kent]

as the last of the "good" Camrys died in 2001.

And that could be the problem for me...
I drove a 1998 LE for nearly 7 years.
Was definately an excellent machine on a multitude of levels. Only thing I would have changed would have been the power of that little 4cyl. Just not enough for a car of that size to be respectably fast on pick-up (although I did top it out at 113mph with the 4sp. auto and found it to be more than I expected).

None the less, the 4cyl was a bit weak for the size of the car.
Luckily I'm getting just about the same power in my current car only my current car weighs just 2600lbs.

In any case, I'm just saying that being spoiled on the "last good Camry" for all those years probably ruined my ability to say anything bad about a Camry.

Btw, the most recent generation of maximas has been ugly in my eyes since day-one.
Even worse is the new push to put technology into the car's media system... Friend of mine just bought a CTS over a Maxima because the huge screen in the Maxima and all the technology was intimidating and "ugly." (was a girl so go-figure I guess)

None the less, that does bring up a good point about the cost of these cars... They are quickly approaching that of an area where RWD and Leather are pretty common... Not a good thing for FWD'ers pushing more than 200HP.

 

[Diablomonkey]

Let me predict the future now...
The next Toyota to be reviewed will be rated poorly for "Boring" drving feel.

Unless Toyoa pulls their head out of their @ss and bring the Supra out of retiement right away (one can always wish )