Conveying an immersive yet realistic sense of speed.

[MilanBarca]

I'd just like to warn you that this may be considered a wall-of-text. I recommend that you read the whole post but, if you can't be bothered to, just skip to the last one or two paragraphs.

Although I do believe that the GT series is fantastic, there are still several notable flaws in terms of simulating the racing (and driving) experience. Many complain that GT feels 'boring' compared to other racers, such as NFS: Shift. Besides obvious differences in physics and realism, why is that?

The one flaw that sticks out to me most is the inaccurate portrayal of speed. Driving can oft feel slower than what the numbers on the speedo suggest, even though the car is actually moving at the right rate of distance and time. For example, 80 km/h in GT5 may 'feel' like 30 km/h in the real world, even though the vehicle in GT is passing objects by at exactly 80 km/h. This is especially noticeable as speed increases.

This can be explained by several factors. In the real world, there are forces acting on the car (and the objects within the car) which influence how one feels while driving. The most notable, as the majority of you are aware, are g-forces. Of course, PD has only so much freedom when attempting to implement the g-forces felt in real driving into the digital counterpart. They can't actually include these forces pushing and pulling your body as you play (for obvious reasons) and, as a result, one does not really feel like they are going fast.

Of course, there are other factors or 'tricks' which affect perception of speed and can be and have been included in GT, for example sound and camera-shake. PD recently upgraded sound in the 2.02 patch, and wind sound is now louder, allowing for a slightly more immersive experience. Other series, such as NFS, incorporate vision blur and exaggerated sounds in order to enhance this experience, although this is at the cost of reduced realism, which is an important aspect of GT.

I believe that there are still some other things that can be incorporated into the next iteration of GT that will improve the experience while keeping it realistic. Diving into a sharp corner in a Formula 1 car, screaming down the Mulsanne Straight in an LMP, accelerating round a banked turn in an exotic sports car; in the real world, the forces involved in such scenarios do have effects on the human body, besides simple pushes and pulls. Driving down a straight at over 400 km/h should slightly blur your vision or cause slight blackness around your peripheral eyesight (think of the similar effects experienced on a fast rollercoaster, or in a jet); F1 pilots can attest to this. At the same time, there should be distorted sound effects at such incredible speeds caused by a combination of incredibly strong wind sounds and engine noise. At 250 mph, you're not going to be hearing your tires screech over the wind or your engine. Of course, these wouldn't be distorted to the extent of games like NFS: Shift but, at the same time, your vision and hearing are not going to be crystal-clear at such speeds, contrary to what GT5 might suggest.

Those are two small things that, in my opinion, could go a long way in improving the GT driving and racing experience. What are some other things that you guys believe would be beneficial to the experience yet still realistic enough to implement without fan backlash?

 

[diptob79]

During a session on a local track, indeed I often feel slower than my actual speed (example, I went 150kph felt like 60kph). What I learn is because the track is wide and there's nothing on your peripheral vision that relate your actual speed and your perception. Try driving 60kph on the freeway, compare it with 60kph down your neighborhood, if you see what I mean.

I can live with GT5 sens of speed. But if one could improve, I suggest to decorate the road surface with some dirts, preloaded tire marks, and the most important is to add resolution of bumps. I'm sure it will add the immersion to sense of speed.

 

[iCyCo]

Agree with diptob79, tracks in GT are just too clean, also accumulation of dirt on the windshield could be included.

 

[Slash]

55mph feels extremely slow, in real life it's kind of fast. 100 in a real car doens't seem fast to me though. I just know in GT it's not right.

 

[Zoli007]

I agree completely, I usually find regular non super sport exotics slow. For example a stock M3 or M5 feels quite slow in the game but they are anything but in real life.

 

[BrandonW77]

It's because you have no peripheral vision. Going with a triple screen setup goes a long way towards fixing that. 👍

 

[Grand Prix]

Perhaps they could use a wider field of view in all the camera options to "exaggerate" the sense of speed? In cockpit view that will increase the amount of celling and dash being shown though. It's probably difficult to find the right field of view (with one screen, at least) so I can see why they made the decisions they have. There's no reason we can't have the option to adjust the field of view though, when PC sims already offer this freedom.

 

[Sach]

During a session on a local track, indeed I often feel slower than my actual speed (example, I went 150kph felt like 60kph). What I learn is because the track is wide and there's nothing on your peripheral vision that relate your actual speed and your perception. Try driving 60kph on the freeway, compare it with 60kph down your neighborhood, if you see what I mean.

Exactly this. 👍

 

[G219]

I agree with Diptob79 and BrandonW77...and the OP.

Like you said, what are PD to do? Probably wait until ps4, but FOV wouldn't be a bad idea. (they give you a bit of freedom in cockpit, but only to narrow the view, not widen it from the default)

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

Well a lot of the low speeds seeming slower has to do with g forces and we all know its almost impossible to implement the feel of speed unless you have that simulator wheel and seat thingy.

Its hard to make a game look " un arcadey" and give a good sense of speed.
I liked how one video looked before gt5 released , it was recorded offscreen and the cam was shaking and it made it look like it had a good sense of speed.
I do like the 2.02 chase cam but if they added a subtle shake to it I think it would be as good as it can get.

 

[phil_75]

Perhaps they could use a wider field of view in all the camera options to "exaggerate" the sense of speed? In cockpit view that will increase the amount of celling and dash being shown though. It's probably difficult to find the right field of view (with one screen, at least) so I can see why they made the decisions they have. There's no reason we can't have the option to adjust the field of view though, when PC sims already offer this freedom.

Thats how other games do it!👍

 

[Spasiboy]

This can be explained by several factors. In the real world, there are forces acting on the car (and the object within the car) which influence how one feels while driving. The most notable, as the majority of you are aware, are g-forces. Of course, PD only has so much freedom when attempting to implement the g-forces felt in real driving into its digital counterpart. They can't actually include these forces pushing and pulling your body as you play, for obvious reasons and, as a result, one does not really feel like they are going fast.

I've found a solution for that issue.
Take a look :Real Driving Simulator.

This thing is connected to the PC, only few games are supported, doesn't work with PS3 though... Must be expensive because they put an email in the "pricing" page

More info: Motion-Sim

Edit: I've found a price of that beast... 18149,23 EUR = 23442,54$ - calculated from polish price tag at 80.000 PLN.

 

[BWX]

I think FOV and camera height are the biggest factors in conveying a VISUAL sense of speed. I think GT5 does an OK job.

I use what people refer to as ''bumper cam'' (although it isn't a bumper cam at all) and the sense of speed is pretty good because of the FOV and the fact that you can see the road flying by. I like cockpit view but the camera position is too far back for me and the FOV is too tight for a good sense of speed. I'd like the cockpit cam close too the windshield and adjustable with a wider FOV, also adjustable - and not worry if I couldn't see the gauges. Just use HUD gauges like standard car cockpit view.

I sit in a racing rig with a real racecar seat about 5 or 6 feet away (my head) from a 52'' TV- a big TV helps fill out your own field of vision too and helps with sense of speed. Think about sitting 15 feet away from a 32'' TV, and I'm sure many do- that would kill any sense of speed no matter what the game did.

I don't think you can even have this conversation without talking about your TV(s) setup and seating position and distance, it makes a big difference. Imagine a 5 screen setup with 50'' or larger TVs, that would be sick. What about multiple monitors running 3D? Does 3D help sense of speed? I won't know till this TV dies, hopefully a very long time from now.

 

[kennylmao]

I totally agree with your take on sense of speed in GT5. It just doesn't feel like you're going fast, even at 300km/h.

But all this changed when I tried it in 3D. Try it if you get the chance.

For me, I feel that when playing in 3D, you'll get the true sense of speed at which you are driving. 👍

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well a lot of the low speeds seeming slower has to do with g forces and we all know its almost impossible to implement the feel of speed unless you have that simulator wheel and seat thingy.

Its hard to make a game look " un arcadey" and give a good sense of speed.
I liked how one video looked before gt5 released , it was recorded offscreen and the cam was shaking and it made it look like it had a good sense of speed.
I do like the 2.02 chase cam but if they added a subtle shake to it I think it would be as good as it can get.

G forces have nothing to do with the eyes but more so how your muscles and other parts of your body are reacting to the forces pushing on you in heavy loading. G forces would help immerse your body to racing if a sim could do it, but not the actual white knuckle driving your eyes make you feel. GT5 does a good job of that with some cars in the rain. However, I think these videos would help understand what kind of immersed effect one would want to feel when driving fast.

 

[HippieGiraffe]

Completely agree with you LMS. And in response to Tommy Milner above...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Completely agree with you LMS. And in response to Tommy Milner above...

Thank you, I forgot that Vettel had the Helmet cam for the last race. Problem with these videos are that people will see them and not like how shaky or bumpy the views are, but the point is that is really immersion and not the cookie cutter system GT has. However the open screen cam with no view is probably the best for immersion, but not realistic cause you can't gauge where your car is. A movable in cockpit view where I can look right or left or have a full rear view mirror would be most ideal.

 

[Dodzzz]

It's because you have no peripheral vision. Going with a triple screen setup goes a long way towards fixing that. 👍

Yes I absolutely agree with this.
I have tried this myself.
You can try this too without owning a multiple display setup, by pressing Left while driving, then move your head to the right so that your TV is on your left side. then you will feel the speed!

Multiple display really fix this issue.

 

[ferrrai512]

How about Enthusia??? That had a sense of speed too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqGbp42kiqI&feature=related

 

[Morgoth_666]

Multiple display really fix this issue.

Very true, unfortunately cost is an issue but multi-display is the best solution.

FOV adjustment is problematic as well. A low FOV means speed sensation to the front is better but you still can't see things passing, as well as making driving in traffic a nightmare and mirrors even harder to use.

A high FOV makes interior view look terrible as you're just looking through a narrow slit of a windshield and acres of roof and floor. Side windows start to take up more of your view than where you're going. High FOV tends to result in an odd wide-angle-lens effect(walleye-vision?) that really distorts perception, like the nearly useless mirror in bumper cam where a car 6 feet away fills the whole view and one 12 feet back looks 150 yards away. I can't believe anybody thinks that mirror is better than the others.

It will always be a compromise and subject to taste. I don't think GT5 is that bad, but I miss the headshake. An FFB wheel helps.

 

[SkylineObsession]

I think the sensation of speed in GT is very realistic and not overdone.

I've been 280Km/h in an R33 GT-R in real life (i was a passenger) and it really didn't seem that fast - scenery wasn't coming at me as quickly as i thought it should be. I'm excluding the fact i was literally being entirely bounced upwards off of my seat (seatbelt stopped me hitting my head on the ceiling) thanks to the bumps which normally go unnoticed at the legal speed limit, and the super hard suspension setup the Skyline had. Not making that up.

Then i looked to my left out the window - thats when i realised that we were definately going rather fast.

Do the same thing in GT. On a track where it seems slower than it should be, look either right or left by using the d-pad (or wherever you have the look buttons, if at all) and then notice how quickly the stationary objects are flying past, then try relate to that in the real world. "If i hit that post with that speed in real life it wouldn't be too nice."

High-Speed Ring feels quite slow, whereas the same pace around the Nordschliefe feels quite quick.👍

 

[BWX]

Yeah even in real life the sense of speed is hugely affected by how close to roadside objects you to are. I bet 200 mph on a wide open salt flat feels slower than 45 mph down a narrow back alley in a crowded city.

 

[sheepborg]

I like how gt is set up.
Now it is true that you cannot get the full feel for it, nor the individuality of cars at speed (eg, one of my minivans feels like warp speed at 55, while other faster cars of mine feel alot more comfortable higher up, with 325i settling in at 80mph)

But i always felt that games like nfs were way over-done and downright silly at times

and too, if you ever have a 3 monitor setup, it is fantastic

 

[DEATHSARTHE]

What GT has always lacked in my opinion is drama, but I've always beens enthralled with the realism incorperated in everything linked to the overall racing experience.

I like the dynamic chase POV, even though its a little glitchy. But it brings more drama to the experience by exaggerating (more so than the usual, boring static chase POV would) the speed and phyics happening in front of us.

Something they really need to work on and not be afraid to do is increase engine noise, wind noise, and road noise. I don't know about you guys but my car is ten years old, whenever I run it through a rough stretch of road it lets me know lol.

All of my complaints with GT5's experience of now are just atmospheric and noise related. I understand atmosphere is hard to convey in any type of game but I know PD can do it because GT3 still has by far the most beatiful tracks in the series. Even if they can't program dynamic time/weather for every track they could at least offer Dusk/Dawn/Night and Rain/Snow/Wet Track version of the tracks. Driving is a visual activity and atmosphere definitely adds to the experience.

 

[mister dog]

The sense of speed in GT5 is right on the money i think. In real life when you do speeds above 120 km/hour on the freeway it doesnt seem that fast neither until you look trough the side windows and see trees, houses and lantarnposts flash by... then you only realize the speeds you are doing. Looking through the front windshield slows it all a little down and thats good otherwise you'd panic a bit to soon.

 

[Ganondorf]

During a session on a local track, indeed I often feel slower than my actual speed (example, I went 150kph felt like 60kph). What I learn is because the track is wide and there's nothing on your peripheral vision that relate your actual speed and your perception. Try driving 60kph on the freeway, compare it with 60kph down your neighborhood, if you see what I mean.

I can live with GT5 sens of speed. But if one could improve, I suggest to decorate the road surface with some dirts, preloaded tire marks, and the most important is to add resolution of bumps. I'm sure it will add the immersion to sense of speed.

This. I conducted a couple of tests IRL and in Gran Turismo.

1. If I glanced to the sides while driving, I could see thing moving past, so it felt as though I was going quicker than I really was.

2. I then fixed my eyes on the horizon and saw that everything felt very slow - this was because there were no objects I could easily see moving past the vehicle.

3. In GT4, I did a race on Citta di Aria, and felt as though I was going quicker, than say, Sarthe, because the narrow roads and easy to see moving objects aided the idea of moving quickly.

I am definitely an advocate of motion blur in GT5. When driving the Red Bull at full speed, my (virtual) eyes shouldn't be able to interpret all imagery clearly.

 

[zqxwjv]

In my rig, I have a 51" plasma about 45 inches away. When racing in a practice heat with F10's at Monaco using the cockpit view, the sense of speed is quite intense. I always use the cockpit view and generally prefer open top cars such as the F10, TDI R10, and XJ13. For Rally, the premium Toyota Corolla GT205 also has an excellent cockpit view and good sense of speed. I find that turning the display size setting up to 100% helps as well.

 

[sheepborg]

I am definitely an advocate of motion blur in GT5. When driving the Red Bull at full speed, my (virtual) eyes shouldn't be able to interpret all imagery clearly.

Food for thought, whats the point of realistic when you are going so unrealistically fast?

As for my thoughts anyways, the more eventful, or speed conveying, are definitely the bumper cam, and my favorite the hood/roof camera.
If you get close to the wall at daytona in roof camera, you feel like you are going FAST. This has to do with a wide enough FOV, and being able to see next to you. You dont feel speed if you cant see next to you.

The grand daddy of all is any triple monitor setup in 3D. That, is fantastic.

 

[Illopp00]

I agree with upping some additional road noise. The 2.02 update did good with the engine noise and wind noise. Some other noises like suspension clunks over bumps, tires noise over different surfaces (the thunks in SSR are good) and interior noise like feet stamping on brakes.

 

[Ganondorf]

Food for thought, whats the point of realistic when you are going so unrealistically fast?

Lol, good point, but I was just using it as an example. But any car with a high top speed would certainly cause motion blur. I was just using it as an extreme example - there are plenty of cars it should happen with, but it seems all the more ludicrous that you can see everything clearly at ~300mph.