Countersteering

[bogani]

So, after playing Forza 4 for a year or so, I've went back to GT5.

I use a Fanatec GT2 with Clubsport pedals.

I'm having major difficulties catching and holding slides in this game. When the rear comes out and I countersteer the car instantly brakes off to the direction I'm countersteering in, and when I try to counter that it brakes off in the other direction etc etc.

I'm fairly good at drifting IRL and find this behaviour a bit odd I might say.

This is done with the basic setup of the cars I might add, but I feel I should be able to drift a stock M3 without having to tweak it.

Are ther any ingame-setting I should change?

 

[kieran177]

What tyres where you using?

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

Over-correction. Countersteer less, or ease off the throttle less.

 

[Griffith500]

The tyre model is a bit hard-edged, try something more pliable and slippery, like the Comforts (I think the M3s all come with Sports Hards as standard).

 

[bogani]

Over-correction. Countersteer less, or ease off the throttle less.

I use the stock tires that come with the car, I think it's sports hard.

I know the game thinks I'm over-correcting, but I dont feel like the amount of correction I do(which isnt that much) should make the car instantly brake of in the direction and cause the twitchiness back and forth.

Maybe I should add some deadzone or play with the linearity setting on my Fanatec?

 

[Raitziger]

Put drift mode to 3.

 

[amar212]

Put drift mode to 3.

And on-wheel sensitivity (SEN) on 0 (it uses game default on 0). But Drift absolutely on 003, it will remove all artificial dampening of the wheel axsis.

Also notice how countersteer is vastly different in GT5/FM4 due to differences in way how FFB effects are portrayed.

In FM4 you can't really countersteer naturally because lack of direct FFB for all *reverb* effects (countersteer most notably) are lost dur to problems with way X360 handles FFB effect.

For mastering GT5 you have to find a way to feel where is *really* the limit of the tyres for lateral-grip. In Forza countersteer is often at the same *point* for all cars (as long as you are using 900-degree steering).

 

[VBR]

So, after playing Forza 4 for a year or so, I've went back to GT5.

I'm having major difficulties catching and holding slides in this game. When the rear comes out and I countersteer the car instantly brakes off to the direction I'm countersteering in, and when I try to counter that it brakes off in the other direction etc etc.

I'm fairly good at drifting IRL and find this behaviour a bit odd I might say.

Are ther any ingame-setting I should change?

The only thing I'd suggest changing for drifting is tyres, most drifters use Comfort Hard because they have predictable & progressive slip. Anything from Sports Hard upwards isn't very progressive or forgiving compared to real life, it takes some getting used to. It's better since the 2.09 update, but there's still too much snap back. Also, there was a major physics update in 2.09 & will feel different to the last time you played a year ago.


Another reason slides in Forza are easier to catch than GT5 is this;




👍

 

[Raitziger]

FFB system of F4 is total mystery to me also I actually find game unplayable with simulation setting.
Were you talking about driving in GT5 of F4? To me GT5 feels very natural once you get right settings to the wheel. I play with turbo S. You could also try to reduce spring and damper from wheel setting.

And oh yes, you need new firmware from 911wheel.de, if your wheel has too old firmware which lacks the settings we talk about.

 

[lldantell]

So, after playing Forza 4 for a year or so, I've went back to GT5.

I use a Fanatec GT2 with Clubsport pedals.

I'm having major difficulties catching and holding slides in this game. When the rear comes out and I countersteer the car instantly brakes off to the direction I'm countersteering in, and when I try to counter that it brakes off in the other direction etc etc.

I'm fairly good at drifting IRL and find this behaviour a bit odd I might say.

This is done with the basic setup of the cars I might add, but I feel I should be able to drift a stock M3 without having to tweak it.

Are ther any ingame-setting I should change?

Maybe your car got too much rear grip.cars be snappy if they have a lot of rear grip

 

[screp RC]

Countersteering or drifting in GT5 becomes pretty natural and somewhat realistic after a while but what sets it apart from drifting IRL is that you need to deliberatly correct every input you make. IRL when you drift the car has a "natural tendency" to recover traction but in GT5 this "natural tendency" is absent and everything you do do must be totally corrected. It´s not easy to explain but I hope you get the idea About F4 drifting physics I will refrain myself from any comment as normally it is just opening a can of worms in any forum

 

[bogani]

FFB system of F4 is total mystery to me also I actually find game unplayable with simulation setting.
Were you talking about driving in GT5 of F4? To me GT5 feels very natural once you get right settings to the wheel. I play with turbo S. You could also try to reduce spring and damper from wheel setting.

And oh yes, you need new firmware from 911wheel.de, if your wheel has too old firmware which lacks the settings we talk about.

First of all, thanks for all the feedback!

Yep, the FF in Forza 4 feels quite unconsistant. Using the simulation mode is totally unplayable as even the slowest RWD car inte the game tankslaps you in the ass.
The normal steering mode feels alot better but you can get away with pretty much anything, so something in between would have been nice.

Back to topic. The settings on my Fanatec is 900(or zero), -3 damper, -3 spring, 2 drift, 0 linearity, 0 deadzone.

 

[lldantell]

First of all, thanks for all the feedback!

Yep, the FF in Forza 4 feels quite unconsistant. Using the simulation mode is totally unplayable as even the slowest RWD car inte the game tankslaps you in the ass.
The normal steering mode feels alot better but you can get away with pretty much anything, so something in between would have been nice.

Back to topic. The settings on my Fanatec is 900(or zero), -3 damper, -3 spring, 2 drift, 0 linearity, 0 deadzone.

When tiff needell pn fifth gear reviewed it,he think that the 458 ITALIA doesn't handle as good as the real car.so,driving in forza 4 is like playing a arcade game

 

[hennessey86]

The only thing I'd suggest changing for drifting is tyres, most drifters use Comfort Hard because they have predictable & progressive slip. Anything from Sports Hard upwards isn't very progressive or forgiving compared to real life, it takes some getting used to. It's better since the 2.09 update, but there's still too much snap back. Also, there was a major physics update in 2.09 & will feel different to the last time you played a year ago.


Another reason slides in Forza are easier to catch than GT5 is this;




👍

That was corrected with a patch VBR and in my opinion both games feel very similar once you lose the car.

 

[ECGadget]

Countersteering or drifting in GT5 becomes pretty natural and somewhat realistic after a while but what sets it apart from drifting IRL is that you need to deliberatly correct every input you make. IRL when you drift the car has a "natural tendency" to recover traction but in GT5 this "natural tendency" is absent and everything you do do must be totally corrected. It´s not easy to explain but I hope you get the idea

Big agreement here! In GT5, when you slide, you have to correct it. Every minute movement has to be from your own hands. In real life (or even a game like LFS) when you slide, as I am sure you're aware, the car tends to push the wheel into an automatic countersteer, trying to push the car into a safer zone where it can grip again. And you feel this through the wheel. It just takes time to get used to GT5 =)

 

[bogani]

When tiff needell pn fifth gear reviewed it,he think that the 458 ITALIA doesn't handle as good as the real car.so,driving in forza 4 is like playing a arcade game

Well, he didnt turn aids off at all in those tests, which was a poor and way too brief overall test in my opinion. It was stated that he would compare how true to life the games were, but they had DIRT, Crash Time 4(!) on it?

 

[another_jakhole]

Over-correction. Countersteer less, or ease off the throttle less.

You'll have to play with the throttle. If you have the Kart Space track (DLC), practice as much as you can on it. If you don't like it, tough luck. It REALLY is a good beginners track.

CONSTANTLY press/depress that gas pedal.

 

[amar212]

Yep, the FF in Forza 4 feels quite unconsistant. Using the simulation mode is totally unplayable as even the slowest RWD car inte the game tankslaps you in the ass.

Back to topic. The settings on my Fanatec is 900(or zero), -3 damper, -3 spring, 2 drift, 0 linearity, 0 deadzone.

I will have to partially disagree here. I use Simulation setting in FM4 exclusively and only cars I had problems with are Koenigseggs. Simulation setting feels great to me, car is alive, suspension is alive and tyres are so great to enjoy in chasing the limits.

Of course, you have to drastically adjust your driving style and learn to cope with IMO extremely realistic load-levels - but once you "understand" the logic behind Simulation, it becomes a damn great experience. Also notice I am speaking about driving in 900-mode (one you get only when you boot game from 900-setting with powering console first manually and wheel second). You can get good idea about the limits that Simulation is imposing onto physics if you turn on the in-race OSD and dial the "Tyre Load" screen. You will understand the levels of the limits much easier, because Simulation will take all grip away from you once the tyres goes into red-area.

Of course, all above means nothing once you loose the rear because the FFB on X360 can't properly compensate for reverb-effects due to limitations of the X360 FFB engine (Xinput wireless vs. HID USB on PS3/PC). So that is the main problem with countersteer in FM4. But everything else is damn great IMO.

BTW I am using Fanatec CSR Elite and I reckon I have some advantage in FFB feel due to having newer model. But also notice you should probably take both Damper and Spring setting back to "0" for both PS3/X360 modes - they just mess your linearity and FFB sensation. Play with Drift (DRI) setting, but leave all other to zero.

so,driving in forza 4 is like playing a arcade game

That is some seriously flawed opinion there mate.

That was corrected with a patch VBR and in my opinion both games feel very similar once you lose the car.

It was corrected very successfully, yes.

 

[bogani]

I will have to partially disagree here. I use Simulation setting in FM4 exclusively and only cars I had problems with are Koenigseggs. Simulation setting feels great to me, car is alive, suspension is alive and tyres are so great to enjoy in chasing the limits.

Of course, you have to drastically adjust your driving style and learn to cope with IMO extremely realistic load-levels - but once you "understand" the logic behind Simulation, it becomes a damn great experience. Also notice I am speaking about driving in 900-mode (one you get only when you boot game from 900-setting with powering console first manually and wheel second). You can get good idea about the limits that Simulation is imposing onto physics if you turn on the in-race OSD and dial the "Tyre Load" screen. You will understand the levels of the limits much easier, because Simulation will take all grip away from you once the tyres goes into red-area.

Of course, all above means nothing once you loose the rear because the FFB on X360 can't properly compensate for reverb-effects due to limitations of the X360 FFB engine (Xinput wireless vs. HID USB on PS3/PC). So that is the main problem with countersteer in FM4. But everything else is damn great IMO.

BTW I am using Fanatec CSR Elite and I reckon I have some advantage in FFB feel due to having newer model. But also notice you should probably take both Damper and Spring setting back to "0" for both PS3/X360 modes - they just mess your linearity and FFB sensation. Play with Drift (DRI) setting, but leave all other to zero.



That is some seriously flawed opinion there mate.



It was corrected very successfully, yes.

Well, the spring setting set to anything but -3 makes the steering feel too "heavy" and the damper setting seems to make the FF feel numbed down. This is only my own opinion ofc.

BTW, have you ever tried long controlled drifts with the Simulation steering?

Thomas on Fanatec recommends Normal steering, even the slowest cars seem to lose traction way too easy when using Simulation.

 

[bogani]

You'll have to play with the throttle. If you have the Kart Space track (DLC), practice as much as you can on it. If you don't like it, tough luck. It REALLY is a good beginners track.

CONSTANTLY press/depress that gas pedal.

The thing is, that I feel GT5 does a poor job of giving me audio feedback with engine rev/wheelspin compared to Forza 4. When the wheel starts to spin in GT5, it just jumps up to the revlimiter. I dont feel like I have much room to play with the throttle when the wheels are spinning. It's hard to explain, I hope someone gets what I'm saying

Just wanna point out I don't wanna get a flamewar going on here. I like both games in different areas.

 

[amar212]

Yeah, but although the Normal is *recommended* I still prefer Simulation for driving because it gives me much better and life-like driving sensation.

Normal provides tyres with much greater threshold and there is no loss of grip on load. Yes, you can drive more *effectively* that way (especially including drifiting, because grip on rear tyres is much higher in Normal) but it is also less natural IMO

Unfortunately I can't use Simulation in online because everybody drives on Normal and using Simulation is great handicap. But if you search for ultimate experience of Pirelli's great tyre-model and FM4's great physics model, Simulation is the only way to go IMO.

I spoke with Thomas about that "Normal" recommendation and we agreed it is probably the best "overall" setting. However, for true experience I personally always propose Simulation.

Just be persistent and it should pay off 👍

When the wheel starts to spin in GT5, it just jumps up to the revlimiter. I dont feel like I have much room to play with the throttle when the wheels are spinning. It's hard to explain, I hope someone gets what I'm saying

I agree, it is *problem* of GT since the first game. There is no real *progressive* thread of tyres to surface in low speeds, either on very start from standing position or in lower RPMs. As soon as you push the accelerator, engine revs to crazy point and tyres spins until they *catch* the grip. There is no *analogue feel*. Forza 4 tyre model is much more progressive and natural in that area.

 

[Raitziger]

On side note, the latest firmware to GT2 and turbo S wheel did change things somewhat, but I have not quite idea in what way (I play too rarely) Maybe there is more nuanced feeling of understeer in GT5.

 

[RedBaron]

Input lag of display/TV is very important when things go fast too.

 

[failing_finn]

Unfortunately I can't use Simulation in online because everybody drives on Normal and using Simulation is great handicap.

Never heard about this "bug" before, and I doubt it is commonly used in online racing. This is very important notice though. 👍 Tried it, hating it now and never will try it again, but it certainly is different than using Simulation.

What do you think it helps? Couple seconds on a current Chevrolet TT @ Nurburgring?