Curious if anyone feels the same about Pontiac racing.

[Talentless]

I know the old phrase, "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday," though I'm not naive enough to think it always works, is very enticing, and I'm sure I'm speaking beyond myself to ask this, but I shall anyway. Is Pontiac's involvement in professional road racing a good business model? Are they marketting their involvement in a good way? I just suspect that it is not, and that few people are ever going to think "Pontiac means road racing," no matter how successful the company is.

Am I wrong?

 

[Kylehnat]

Yes, you are wrong. To me, if a company decides to race, it shows that they are serious about building decent cars. Also, a lot of improvements to the street cars come directly from the racecars.

Think about the cars that you consider "good" (exotics not included). Are the companies that make these cars involved in racing?

 

[ExigeEvan]

I haven't seen any of Peugots or Citroens rally experience filter down to their road cars.

Neither do I see Honda's with F1 technology. (Well nothing later than the NSX)

I think the race cars testing for road cars is a load of rubbish. I admit that some modern things have come from race cars, flappy paddle gear boxes (Yay!) and traction control but I haven't heard of anything life saving (TCS aside) or engine enhancing.

 

[Kylehnat]

I haven't seen any of Peugots or Citroens rally experience filter down to their road cars.

Just becuase the road-going 307 doesn't have a 300hp engine doesn't mean that Puegeot doesn't learn anything from its rally program.

Neither do I see Honda's with F1 technology. (Well nothing later than the NSX)

Honda races in countless series that aren't F1.

I admit that some modern things have come from race cars, flappy paddle gear boxes (Yay!) and traction control but I haven't heard of anything life saving (TCS aside) or engine enhancing.

Traction control (came from racing) leads to stability control systems (not used in racing). I would argue that both of those innovations are life-saving. Ditto for tire-pressure monitoring systems.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Just becuase the road-going 307 doesn't have a 300hp engine doesn't mean that Puegeot doesn't learn anything from its rally program.

But there's no performance engine and no 4wd either. What exactly is there in the 307 that has any sporting claim, let alone rally?

The Renault Clio 182 wasn't even used in a race championship, untill they made their own for it. And Renault then used that race series to produce the new 197.

Honda races in countless series that aren't F1.

That's completely irrelevant unless you can point out technology from other race series' that gave Honda the chance to develop technology.

Traction control (came from racing) leads to stability control systems (not used in racing). I would argue that both of those innovations are life-saving. Ditto for tire-pressure monitoring systems.

They're all life saving I'll admit. Though TCS and ASM are very similair systems. Tyre monitoring systems are something I did forget though.

 

[YSSMAN]

Of my understanding of Pontiac's current racing movements, they may soon go the way of the Dinosaur as the GTO will be gone for a few years. So that would leave them with their engine-supply deal with the Daytona Prototypes and their D1 Drift Car (2007 Solstice GXP) with Rhys Millen at the wheel.

I think their racing efforts have certainly brought attention to the brand, particularly with D1 Drifting (sadly, I don't care much for the sport). Their different racing efforts have been a good way to showcase the power and capability of the GTO, and with that shifting twards the Solstice, this could still be a good thing for Pontiac.

---

I still say, however, the whole "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday" thing is pretty out-of-date when it comes to most car sales. I don't know many people who are going to go out and buy a Dodge Charger because Kasey Kahne won the 3M Performance 500, or someone to go and persue a Honda Civic Si because Sam Hornish Jr. took a Honda to the winners circle at Indy.

Granted of course that racing is still a testbed for parts before they make it to the showrooms, but the process seems to be slower now than what it did back in the 1960s. But good examples of recent technology to come straight off the track would indeed be Ferrari's F1 gearbox, the Z06's LS7, and Porsche's new variable turbochargers.

But back to the origional question...

s Pontiac's involvement in professional road racing a good business model? Are they marketting their involvement in a good way?

Yes and no, as it depends on how you look at it. Pontiac might not be the best example as a company, but something like Audi or Porsche may be better.

 

[m.piedgros]

The 307 doesn't use 4wd in rally, or at least not the WRC...

m.piedgros

 

[ExigeEvan]

The 307 doesn't use 4wd in rally, or at least not the WRC...

m.piedgros

I thought all WRC cars used 4wd....

If not then I've been away from WRC for way too long.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Let's not forget that the GTO also replaced the Grand Am as the Pontiac body for Pro Stocks in NHRA competition.

And with a great measure of success, as the body proved extremely low drag for the strip.

Pontiac made a good choice when they pulled out of NASCAR and redirected the budget into smaller road racing and the NHRA project. One of their ultimate goals with the Solstice is to unseat the Miata at the heart of the autocrossing/club racing market. While the Solstice is still very new, it's already proving a much easier car to drive quickly than the Miata thanks to its wider footprint, torquier engine, and bigger tires. With a few more years of development, aftermarket support, and plenty of Pontiac bucks, we may see Spec Solstice instead of Spec Miata!

Okay, exaggeration, but you see the point.

As for the DP engine program, it's an easy use for the LS1/LS2 (destroked to 5.0L) and has already proven radically successful for them. As GARRA builds steam, Pontiac's position as the stand-by engine of the series will become more valuable. Think of Porsche's position as the dominant force in GT2 racing the world over, and you'll see how valuable being the stand-by is.

The biggest problem with Pontiac's position is that it's hard to market to the mainstream, but Pontiac realizes this and chooses to market to enthusiasts with a budget. They'll keep building from the bottom and working on establishing a firm foothold as the go-to company for an American car to take to the course, and their hope is that it'll cement their reputation as GM's Performance division.

 

[Roo]

The 307 does use 4WD in the WRC. All the WRC cars do; they also all use 2 litre, 300hp, straight 4 turbocharged engines and sequential 'boxes (it's the most the rules and regs will allow), regardless of what the donor car was, be it Xsara, Impreza, Fabia or whatever. If you don't maximise what you can squeeze out of the rulebook, then there's no point in going racing, becuase you'll lose.

Edit: Sorry for the offtopicness of this post (not really knowing enough about Pontiac to comment), but I'm fairly sure most people won't be buying a Pontiac (or any other car) on the strength of its racing sibling alone. I sure won't be purchasing a Xsara any time soon, no matter how well the rally car does.

 

[Kylehnat]

but I'm fairly sure most people won't be buying a Pontiac (or any other car) on the strength of its racing sibling alone.

Don't be so sure. And remember, the GTO is not really a Pontiac anyway; it's a Holden

 

[Tornado]

Yes, you are wrong. To me, if a company decides to race, it shows that they are serious about building decent cars. Also, a lot of improvements to the street cars come directly from the racecars.

I'd like to see 5 examples of this that haven't taken more than 10 years or been done by Porsche or Ferrari.
I can think of 1, and that's quattro, but that doesn't even count because the original quattro (not the Sport) was a road car first.
I'd also like to see how Rhys Millen being handed Formula D wins or Pontiac having NASCAR drivers win races in Daytona Prototypes effects Pontiac quality in their road cars in the slightest, much less in the technology front.

Think about the cars that you consider "good" (exotics not included). Are the companies that make these cars involved in racing?

Yes. There is Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Mazda, Renault, Nissan, VW, Honda, etc.
I fail to see your point however, because I fail to see how something like this effects this in any way. If anything, racing makes car evolution go slower, because it is very difficult to make something road worthy that was in a race car unless it is an exotic, and it also takes money away from bettering the road cars.

 

[m.piedgros]

Roo, I'm gonna trust you because you seem to know what you are talking about. But, back when I was a fan the Peugot's (206 I think) weren't 4wd, a number of cars weren't, and they were not just competitive but quite successful. Do the rules now state that the manufacturer MUST run 4wd?

m.piedgros

 

[Tornado]

Roo, I'm gonna trust you because you seem to know what you are talking about. But, back when I was a fan the Peugot's (206 I think) weren't 4wd, a number of cars weren't, and they were not just competitive but quite successful. Do the rules now state that the manufacturer MUST run 4wd?

Both Group A and WRC class rules dictate that 4WD must be used, yes. If you were seeing cars that weren't it was likely that they were in different classes than the big WRC cars.

 

[m.piedgros]

having NASCAR drivers win races in Daytona Prototypes

You can say what you want about racing technology coming to the road. Most road technology was created, and/or innovated, and/or developed on the track. As for the above, NASCAR drivers winning in Grand-Am is because Grand-Am is made up of a lot of "gentlemen" drivers who are in second rate cars. If your point was NASCAR drivers have an advantage over the average Grand-Am driver you are just plain wrong. NASCAR drivers are some of the professional racing worlds worst drivers. Example, this past weekend at Sonoma. Jack Roush put Boris Said (REAL racecar driver) in a second rate car and he finnished ninth against "the worlds most competitive, equal racing series with the best drivers." NASCAR drivers are great at what they do. There is no question that they can pilot a stock car around an oval better than anyone, that's why they're pros. However, when it comes to NASCAR guys running in Grand-Am, all else equal, I'd take J.C. France over Jimmy Johnson any day.

m.piedgros

 

[Roo]

Just to clairfy

206 WRC (same with the 307) spinning all 4 wheels in a hairpin:

and this is the 2WD version on a straight:

and neither are to be confused with this, a 2WD WRC car:

The differences between drivers of different racing disciplines are the reason why events like the Race of Champions exist - lots of drivers, driving identical cars against each other. always interesting to watch. And don't forget Robbie Gordon drove in the Paris-Dakar, and didn't do too badly until he barrel rolled the car.

 

[Tornado]

If your point was NASCAR drivers have an advantage over the average Grand-Am driver you are just plain wrong. NASCAR drivers are some of the professional racing worlds worst drivers.
m.piedgros

I didn't say that or even imply it, but this is a little insulting, I must say. I'm quite sure that if every NASCAR driver was ass backwards when it comes to road courses, then there is no way in hell anyone would be stupid enough to let them drive as much as they do. There have been NASCAR drivers at Sebring and Daytona multiple years since 2001. And most of the time they have gotten near to winning or won. I'm not saying that every oval star is good a road courses, but saying that they all aren't is just wrong.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

m.piedgros, I think Terry Labonte's IMSA GTO class winning drive, sixth overall, at the Daytona 24 in 1984 would disagree with your assesment.

Or for that matter, Bill Elliot ran IMSA GTO for Jack Roush, including a Daytona effort where he paired with Ricky Rudd, Kyle Petty, and Ken Schrader.

At Sebring, minus Petty and Schrader, this effort came home 5th overall. In 1987, the Sebring victory would be backed up with 1st in Class at Daytona.

Darrell Waltrip had a run in a Nimrod at Daytona in 1983 that placed 13th on the grid and ended with an engine failure. It was, ironically, Waltrip's Pepsi sponsorship that brought the British Nimrod team over to the states.

And do I really need to bring up Herschel McGriff at Le Mans?

The fact of the matter is that many NASCAR drivers not only are successful road racers, but even - gasp - ENJOY road racing. It also just so happens that they enjoy driving stock cars and pay the bills driving stock cars.

 

[m.piedgros]

I never said there was no good road racing talent in NASCAR. I could continue that name dropping train if you wish, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart etc. etc. etc. That wasn't the point. NASCAR drivers are racers, they have a completely different skill set from road racers, and if given the opportunity to learn they'll do just fine on a road course. However, MOST of the young talent coming into NASCAR these days aren't what I would consider real racecar drivers because they focus on oval racing and aim only for NASCAR. Some don't even aquire what I would consider a REAL racing liscence until a week or two before their first road race. In some cases their car owners will just take them out of the cars because they know, even if this cat learns aquires his liscence it isn't worth ruining a car and possibly falling out of the top thirty-five in owners points because the kid hasn't the experience to keep the car out of the wall. My problem, and I am clarifying this for you, is not with NASCAR and every single driver but do you think Ron Fellows, Boris Said and Scott Pruett are brought in for a laugh? NO! It's because America's young racing talent are "specializing" themselves in NASCAR at birth because they know that is where the money is. Granted, there are two road course races on the big series' schedule, so they'll have to eventually become at least competant road racers. And I realize that NASCAR drivers enjoy road racing, because I do happen to know that Kyle Petty has said he would have prefered going into road racing if NASCAR wasn't the "family business." I was merely arguing the point that the reason General Motors is putting NASCAR drivers in the seats of Pontiac DP's is because your average American will recognize Jimmy Johnson, Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart as opposed to Max Papis or Max Angelelli who, and I think this you can admit, are just plain faster. And I apologize, I'd probably take Jimmy Johnson over J.C. France any day. That was a bit of an exaggeration. Thanks for the history lesson though.

m.piedgros

P.S. Herschel McGriff drove everything, Indy 500, Trans-Am, Le Mans, NASCAR, he was a real racer. A "renaissance man" even.

 

[xXSilencerXx]

You can say what you want about racing technology coming to the road. Most road technology was created, and/or innovated, and/or developed on the track. As for the above, NASCAR drivers winning in Grand-Am is because Grand-Am is made up of a lot of "gentlemen" drivers who are in second rate cars. If your point was NASCAR drivers have an advantage over the average Grand-Am driver you are just plain wrong. NASCAR drivers are some of the professional racing worlds worst drivers. Example, this past weekend at Sonoma. Jack Roush put Boris Said (REAL racecar driver) in a second rate car and he finnished ninth against "the worlds most competitive, equal racing series with the best drivers." NASCAR drivers are great at what they do. There is no question that they can pilot a stock car around an oval better than anyone, that's why they're pros. However, when it comes to NASCAR guys running in Grand-Am, all else equal, I'd take J.C. France over Jimmy Johnson any day.

m.piedgros

How in the h*** do you think Jack Roush fields second rate cars. He dosen't thats why he has 5 teams. So I think Boris Said is a racing failure when he can't beat these supposed worst professional drivers ever with a first rate car.

 

[Slicks]

I think the race cars testing for road cars is a load of rubbish. I admit that some modern things have come from race cars, flappy paddle gear boxes (Yay!) and traction control but I haven't heard of anything life saving (TCS aside) or engine enhancing.

I disagree.
The best example I can think of is the Corvette. A lot (Read: A lot. One hell of a lot) of technology from the C5R went directly into the C6, and more notably, the C6 Z06. From suspension to engine (The two do share technologies, although are not completely the same) and those nice, light carbon-fibre body panels.
Without the Win-On-Sunday strategy, we wouldn't have a long list of rarer cars, from the Cosworth Escort to the Plymouth Superbird.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I disagree.
The best example I can think of is the Corvette. A lot (Read: A lot. One hell of a lot) of technology from the C5R went directly into the C6, and more notably, the C6 Z06. From suspension to engine (The two do share technologies, although are not completely the same) and those nice, light carbon-fibre body panels.
Without the Win-On-Sunday strategy, we wouldn't have a long list of rarer cars, from the Cosworth Escort to the Plymouth Superbird.

Carbon Fibre is from the aerospace industry. It's not motorpsort invention AFAIK.

I'm always scepticle of the claims that the C6 Z06 shares loads of technology with the C6-R. I'd love someone to say exactly what because for a car that is very cheap in high performance sports car terms it seems interesting how so much expensive technology is included.

The Coswroth Escort was made for homologation purposes. So technically it was make on saturday, race on Sunday.

 

[JohnBM01]

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" is an American tradition. Honestly. I get tired of Pontiac commercials with them b:censored:ing about the performance of their cars. After Audi is done beating butt in its brand of sportscar racing, do they talk about "Le Mans winners 1 and 3 at Le Mans 2006" in a half-ass effort to drive up sales of Audi? Not that I've seen. The way I've seen it, this is their formula: Pontiac wins a race or wins in clss in Rolex Sportscars = b:censored: about it to commercials like they're the best car company in the world. Honestly. If they can kick ass on the track but have crappy cars that no one wants, then what's the point? Make better cars, do well in racing, maybe they'll sell more. Bring back the Firebird/Trans-Am and don't ugly it up like the G6 or Torrent or whatever. Even Cadillac does a better job with this deal. There's a difference, though. Cadillac is tops in Speed GT while Pontiac is in the highest-level sportscar racing series other than the ALMS. Companies compete in racing for certain reasons. Among others is to basically advertise the company. Then when people learn about the company, they want to know if the company can provide solid cars for the street as their racing program is doing a sensational job. A mismatch ANYWHERE here can lead to people not being satisfied at all. This deal involves the racing program AND the street car company it represents. Certainly Pontiac has a mismatch going except for the GTO.R. I am a fan of the latest GTO. And if I know it can do well in GT racing, it can probably do well on the street as well. Other than the GTO and Solstice, Pontiac has no identity since leaving NASCAR.

I just think there's a mismatch that's preventing Pontiac from getting more love than they are capable of. Alright, I'm done. Go ahead and suck up to Pontiac and defend them.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Okay John, I'm man enough to admit that I can't derive a single coherent thought from your whole post. But I'll bite....

Pontiac isn't trying to sell a car, they're trying to sell an image that they lost somewhere around the death of the classic "Wide Track" days. Pontiac used to be the Euro-centric sporty division of GM, and the GTO, Grand Prix, Catalina, Firebird, and other "Wide Track" Pontiacs were sold on the basis of their performance, style, and handling.

What GM product czar Bob Lutz knows is that this business position is what's healthiest for Pontiac. The problem is that Pontiac's product pipeline doesn't support that business position. It hasn't supported that business position for some time.

The Holden import? A stopgap and Lutz'll admit it. The Solstice? Crucial but no real volume. The G6? Damage control to keep profitability. The current Grand Prix? Still no viable replacement on the boards. The Torrent? Cheap and much more market friendly replacement for the pre-Lutz bomb, the Aztek.

Part of reviving Pontiac is rebuilding its image. Folks are too used to BOP (Buick-Olds-Pontiac) because the PRODUCTS were too similar, but also because the IMAGES blurred. Pontiacs got luxo, Olds got Euro, and Buicks got sporty.

The net result? The public got confused.

Going back into sports car racing, in the way Pontiac has, has provided a good channelling of NASCAR funds into inexpensive but productive efforts in both grassroots and top-level racing. The DP engine program was relatively inexpensive, and has proven fruitful not only in building respect from the folks who're shopping for BMW 3 series coupes, but also in developing more reliable roadgoing power for the LS series of V8's.

There's still a long way for Pontiac to go, and what we're seeing is the building of a foundation. With the consolidation of Pontiac's image into a more defined model range free of superfluous models and unfettered by the committee design that ruled the 90's, you'll see that today's sports car effort is much more relevant than first imagined.

Pontiac can't reverse decades of column shift wallowy sedans and rebadged Cavaliers overnight, but they aim to and will while Bob Lutz and co. revive GM's defining imagery from deep in the vault.

Who knows, Lutz and the gang are 100% gung-ho about the Ecotec. What would you say to a Solstice Spyder LMP2 powered by a Katech-built turbo Ecotec with a Riley chassis?

There's limitless potential to be exploited, so don't judge it by the damage control being done now.

 

[RACECAR]

m.piedgros, I think Terry Labonte's IMSA GTO class winning drive, sixth overall, at the Daytona 24 in 1984 would disagree with your assesment.

Or for that matter, Bill Elliot ran IMSA GTO for Jack Roush, including a Daytona effort where he paired with Ricky Rudd, Kyle Petty, and Ken Schrader.

At Sebring, minus Petty and Schrader, this effort came home 5th overall. In 1987, the Sebring victory would be backed up with 1st in Class at Daytona.

Darrell Waltrip had a run in a Nimrod at Daytona in 1983 that placed 13th on the grid and ended with an engine failure. It was, ironically, Waltrip's Pepsi sponsorship that brought the British Nimrod team over to the states.

And do I really need to bring up Herschel McGriff at Le Mans?

The fact of the matter is that many NASCAR drivers not only are successful road racers, but even - gasp - ENJOY road racing. It also just so happens that they enjoy driving stock cars and pay the bills driving stock cars.

though this might not be as significant as the ones brought up, there is also Casey Mear's 2006 Rolex 24 overall Victory.

 

[Talentless]

The biggest problem with Pontiac's position is that it's hard to market to the mainstream, but Pontiac realizes this and chooses to market to enthusiasts with a budget. They'll keep building from the bottom and working on establishing a firm foothold as the go-to company for an American car to take to the course, and their hope is that it'll cement their reputation as GM's Performance division.

That's my major concern.

 

[YSSMAN]

@ Layla's Keeper:

Good post! But I have a few quibbles:

1) I would agree that the current Pontiac does not stand to match the "We Build Excitement" slogan that it currently uses. However, the entire GM lineup is in a makeover phase with models being cut, models being refreshed, and models being replaced. The rumor has been that Pontiac wants to go all RWD by 2010 with the exception of the Epsilon-based G6 (or it may get canceled?), but GM has neither confirmed nor denied the story.

2) Holden Import? I'll agree, but it worked. The model was popular enough to come back for 2008 or 2009, and it re-introduced GM to something it had not done in a while, RWD.

Solstice? Probably one of the most crucial cars in GM's lineup, but the volume numbers have purposely been kept down. They want to be able to sell the cars, thus they bumped production up slightly for the Solstice and Sky, but there are still several month waiting lists for both cars. GM wants to have buzz for the cars, and if they were to flood the market with them, who is going to buy them when everybody who desperately wanted one has one? It shows that someone at GM is thinking again, and it was a good call on their behalf.

The G6? Damage control, yes and no... They needed to replace the Grand AM, as it was not only a best-seller for GM since the '90s, but it is a pretty crucial part of the Pontiac lineup. Granted, it isn't perfect, but I'd say you are getting your money out of the car. Press reviews have for the most part been positive, the car is fairly popular with the public, and quite frankly, thats all that matters. I would have liked to see a sportier version of the car myself, but given it's ties to the Saab 9-3, I presume that GM assumes that most people would spend the extra money on a Saab if they wanted that kind of performance.

The Grand Prix? There is a future for the Grand Prix, and it comes from Australia. The Grand Prix will share the same Zeta platform that will go under everything from the Camaro on up to the Statesman/Invicta. Baisically the Grand Prix will again be the sporty/luxurious version of the Chevrolet Impala, will have optional V6 and V8 engines, and will probably be shooting for the BMW target range in performance on a budget.

The Torrent? Completely unnecessary, and I think GM has realised that. They are slow sellers, as there really was not a market for them to begin with. Given the differences between it, the Chevrolet Equinox and the Saturn VUE, why bother? I suppose it showed that Pontiac can build a crossover when it wants to, but the truck will dissapear when the Pontiac/Buick/GMC cleaning occours.

3) Even I'm confused by your explanation of what happened to Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile. Pontiac has always stayed the "sporty" brand at GM, slotting between Chevrolet and Buick on the totem pole. Granted, they fiddeled with the brand a bit after Oldsmobile's demise, making the Bonneville a luxury car (theoretically to replace the Aurora) and thus confused us all? The game played between Buick and Oldsmobile to me was the most confusing, and throwing Cadillac into the mix makes it worse. The last days of Oldsmobile were strange indeed, on one hand shooting for BMW with the Aurora, and on the other knocking gloves with Mercury and Chrysler with the Alero and Intrigue. Buick, IMO, has been a Lexus wanabe since the early '90s, and has only lived up to that expectation recently. Although once the badboy brand of GM (Oldsmobile to some extent as well), Buick is an old-folks brand these days, doing the duty of Oldsmobile's second fiddle to Cadillac, and batting around with Mercury and Chrysler as well.

4) I completely agree with you on the notion that we all need to give Pontiac time with it's racing efforts. Only two years out of NASCAR (or is it three now?) and it has done a lot, and I'm sure that there is more to come. Given the Solstice's spunky nature, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a favorite on the SCCA circuit, and once the GTO returns, I'm sure that it will again enjoy success on the track as well.

 

[RACECAR]

@ Layla's Keeper:

Good post! But I have a few quibbles:

1) I would agree that the current Pontiac does not stand to match the "We Build Excitement" slogan that it currently uses. However, the entire GM lineup is in a makeover phase with models being cut, models being refreshed, and models being replaced. The rumor has been that Pontiac wants to go all RWD by 2010 with the exception of the Epsilon-based G6 (or it may get canceled?), but GM has neither confirmed nor denied the story.

2) Holden Import? I'll agree, but it worked. The model was popular enough to come back for 2008 or 2009, and it re-introduced GM to something it had not done in a while, RWD.

Solstice? Probably one of the most crucial cars in GM's lineup, but the volume numbers have purposely been kept down. They want to be able to sell the cars, thus they bumped production up slightly for the Solstice and Sky, but there are still several month waiting lists for both cars. GM wants to have buzz for the cars, and if they were to flood the market with them, who is going to buy them when everybody who desperately wanted one has one? It shows that someone at GM is thinking again, and it was a good call on their behalf.

The G6? Damage control, yes and no... They needed to replace the Grand AM, as it was not only a best-seller for GM since the '90s, but it is a pretty crucial part of the Pontiac lineup. Granted, it isn't perfect, but I'd say you are getting your money out of the car. Press reviews have for the most part been positive, the car is fairly popular with the public, and quite frankly, thats all that matters. I would have liked to see a sportier version of the car myself, but given it's ties to the Saab 9-3, I presume that GM assumes that most people would spend the extra money on a Saab if they wanted that kind of performance.

The Grand Prix? There is a future for the Grand Prix, and it comes from Australia. The Grand Prix will share the same Zeta platform that will go under everything from the Camaro on up to the Statesman/Invicta. Baisically the Grand Prix will again be the sporty/luxurious version of the Chevrolet Impala, will have optional V6 and V8 engines, and will probably be shooting for the BMW target range in performance on a budget.

The Torrent? Completely unnecessary, and I think GM has realised that. They are slow sellers, as there really was not a market for them to begin with. Given the differences between it, the Chevrolet Equinox and the Saturn VUE, why bother? I suppose it showed that Pontiac can build a crossover when it wants to, but the truck will dissapear when the Pontiac/Buick/GMC cleaning occours.

3) Even I'm confused by your explanation of what happened to Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile. Pontiac has always stayed the "sporty" brand at GM, slotting between Chevrolet and Buick on the totem pole. Granted, they fiddeled with the brand a bit after Oldsmobile's demise, making the Bonneville a luxury car (theoretically to replace the Aurora) and thus confused us all? The game played between Buick and Oldsmobile to me was the most confusing, and throwing Cadillac into the mix makes it worse. The last days of Oldsmobile were strange indeed, on one hand shooting for BMW with the Aurora, and on the other knocking gloves with Mercury and Chrysler with the Alero and Intrigue. Buick, IMO, has been a Lexus wanabe since the early '90s, and has only lived up to that expectation recently. Although once the badboy brand of GM (Oldsmobile to some extent as well), Buick is an old-folks brand these days, doing the duty of Oldsmobile's second fiddle to Cadillac, and batting around with Mercury and Chrysler as well.

4) I completely agree with you on the notion that we all need to give Pontiac time with it's racing efforts. Only two years out of NASCAR (or is it three now?) and it has done a lot, and I'm sure that there is more to come. Given the Solstice's spunky nature, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a favorite on the SCCA circuit, and once the GTO returns, I'm sure that it will again enjoy success on the track as well.

04, 05, 06.