DaimlerChrysler

[JohnBM01]

WEBSITES OF MENTION:
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7163-1-74014-1-0-0-0-0-0-8-7163-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

Say hello to Daimler-Chrysler. Based on the second website, there are three different groups for D-C. The Mercedes group includes Maybach, Mercedes-Benz, and the somewhat whimsical Smart. The Chrysler division includes Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep. The commercial vehicles division includes Setra (never heard of them), Mercedes-Benz, Frieghtliner, Sterling Trucks, Western Star Trucks, and the Mitsubishi Fuso. Their strategic partners include Japan's Mitsubishi and Korea's Hyundai.

This thread is all about anything Daimler-Chrysler. Now, instead of coming up with seperate threads, I wanted this to be about all companies involved here. My intent was to come up with a Dodge topic, but decided to broaden the perspective. So if you want to talk Dodge, Chrysler, M-B, or whatever (heck, throw in Plymouth talk, even though I don't think they're around anymore), it's all here for you.

To start the topic, my favorite of them is Dodge. Their cars as of late have really impressed me. The new Ram is probably the baddest thing on the road, and you can have one with a new Hemi or the Viper-powered one. The SRT-4 is perhaps a front-drive tuner that can sub as a nice mini muscle car for those who think so. The new Magnum so mean and isn't beaten down with futuristic, usually ugly styling. And you know you can't talk Dodge without the Viper. That's my favorite American car.

Simple, huh? Bring on Daimler-Chrylser talk, GTPlanet! Any brand, any car, Mopar-mania... as The Rock says, "Just bring it!"

 

[VIPFREAK]

All I gotta say is **** Daimler... they screwed over the Viper and Chrysler. BTW, M5power or Daan will probably post factual or technical crap that they didn't... I don't care.

 

[JohnBM01]

Screwed over? How so? Styling? Horsepower? Handling? What?

 

[sUn]

DaimlerChrysler pwns, they've made Chrysler and Dodge a much better brand in the past 2-3 years, almost all of the new vehicles from these to brands have been instant successes.

 

[VIPFREAK]

I'm not exactly sure but seems to me Mercedes is always coming out with stuff while they have chrysler "tag along" and put cars out just to keep afloat. They haven't done anything or help make the Chrysler better IMO. On top of that Mercedes merger was probably more of a ego merger than anything else.

 

[The359]

Explain to me how DaimlerChrysler screwed over the Viper....

And Mercedes as a brand is actually beginning to lose respect in the community, while Chrysler and Dodge gain it.

 

[retsmah]

The Magnum and 300C seem to be getting a pretty good reception, they probably would have been a lot harder to make without Mercedes.

 

[daan]

BTW, M5power or Daan will probably post factual or technical crap that they didn't... I don't care.

What do I know about Chrysler and Vipers? You never see them over here.

And what I post may be crap but at least its factual

 

[VIPFREAK]

Explain to me how DaimlerChrysler screwed over the Viper....

And Mercedes as a brand is actually beginning to lose respect in the community, while Chrysler and Dodge gain it.

Well lets see... 1. what elements of the viper is left? They got rid of the reverse opening hood, no roll bar what does this equate to... A Corvette, yay.

Then there's Mercedes and/or dodge release GTS-R's in racing for who knows why just to smear the Viper's image.

What do I know about Chrysler and Vipers? You never see them over here.

And what I post may be crap but at least its factual

I was j/k but you guys always come back with some argument of some technical crap that I don't know about.

 

[TheCracker]

The Magnum and 300C seem to be getting a pretty good reception, they probably would have been a lot harder to make without Mercedes.

The 300C would have been impossible to make since it uses a old E-class merc for its chassis!

 

[///M-Spec]

I was j/k but you guys always come back with some argument of some technical crap that I don't know about.

Here's a shocking idea... maybe you can just learn something technical about cars from M5Power and daan rather than just calling it crap.


M

 

[Duke]

The 300C would have been impossible to make since it uses a old E-class merc for its chassis!

Did you forget that Chrysler had perfectly good - damn good, in fact - engineers of their own, before Daimler fired half of them, pissed the other half off, and then forced Chrylser to pay Mercedes exorbitant amounts of money for their mediocre engineering services?

Daimler has totally, utterly, and completely dry-shagged Chrysler into submission. There hasn't been a rape this quick, this blatant, and this easily forseen but somehow not prevented since the Wehrmacht blew past the Maginot line.

Everything good Chrysler has done in the last 5 years is totally in spite of, not thanks to, Daimler.

 

[1X83Z]

Screwed over? How so? Styling? Horsepower? Handling? What?

Everyone who likes Chrysler or Dodge claims that when Daimler merged with Chrysler, it was actually a buyout or even a takeover. These people are freaking loons, because, except for the fact that Daimler did in fact merge with Chrysler, they can't come up with one single thing that's worse now.

In fact, before DaimlerChrysler, Chrysler had a hard time capitalizing on two products that should've been substantial hits. First it was the LH sedans, the Chrysler Concorde, Eagle Vision, Chrysler New Yorker, Chrysler Fifth Avenue, and Dodge Intrepid - on paper and on the road they were great and ConsumerReports, who never rates cars in their first year because they may be reliably unsound, gave them recommended ratings in their first year. Not surprisingly, they turned out to be reliably unsound and CR had to retract the ratings. The Dodge Stratus, Chrysler Cirrus, and Plymouth Breeze also took huge praise as Camry-beaters and the first real domestic follow-up to the 1986 Ford Taurus, but something somewhere failed and they were never as popular as they should've been.

Since the merger there haven't been situations like that: quality's up, products are good, and sales are good. Chrysler and Dodge are also creating more defined identities - Chrysler for upscale people and Dodge for complete backwater hicks. In any event, I don't even think Daimler has very much influence on Chrysler's products. I mean, yeah, they share stuff but so do all other companies in partnership. Chrysler and Dodge products still reek of Chrysler and Dodge, not Mercedes - and you people act like that would be a bad thing.

 

[rollazn]

What about Mitsubishi as a company? I heard that DaimlerChrysler refuse to back Mitsubishi up anymore since they are in so much debt. I have heard around 10 billion dollars in debt. Thats a lot. Will it be the end of Mitsubishi?

 

[1X83Z]

What about Mitsubishi as a company? I heard that DaimlerChrysler refuse to back Mitsubishi up anymore since they are in so much debt. I have heard around 10 billion dollars in debt. Thats a lot. Will it be the end of Mitsubishi?

No. At the very worst, they'll file for bankruptcy and be snapped up by some company or someone with a lot of cash. It's an established brand with market presence and name recognition and there's no way they're going to pull out of our market or any world market entirely.

 

[TheCracker]

Did you forget that Chrysler had perfectly good - damn good, in fact - engineers of their own, before Daimler fired half of them, pissed the other half off, and then forced Chrylser to pay Mercedes exorbitant amounts of money for their mediocre engineering services?

Mercedes's mediocre engineering services!!!

Hey, i'm no fan of Merc Benz, in fact i practically hate them, but come on, they are the best engineered cars on the planet!
(BMW might beg to differ)

 

[The359]

Well lets see... 1. what elements of the viper is left? They got rid of the reverse opening hood, no roll bar what does this equate to... A Corvette, yay.

You think the Viper is special because it had a rollbar? Or a hood that opened forward? You do know the Corvette hood opens forward, right? The most important elements of the Viper are still there, that being a big powerful V10, rear wheel drive, and 2 seats. Anything else is extra.

Then there's Mercedes and/or dodge release GTS-R's in racing for who knows why just to smear the Viper's image.

Um, what? What is there to smear about the Viper's image, they've already won all the biggest awards. Did you expect the Viper program to last forever? Not only that but the Viper Competition Coupe is doing pretty well at shaking up the competition in racing.

 

[VIPFREAK]

You think the Viper is special because it had a rollbar? Or a hood that opened forward? You do know the Corvette hood opens forward, right? The most important elements of the Viper are still there, that being a big powerful V10, rear wheel drive, and 2 seats. Anything else is extra.

These are elements that made the Viper MORE unique compared to other car or sports cars and at this point it doesn't look like a viper anymore to me. If you don't think so then whatever.

Um, what? What is there to smear about the Viper's image, they've already won all the biggest awards. Did you expect the Viper program to last forever? Not only that but the Viper Competition Coupe is doing pretty well at shaking up the competition in racing.

Ok, I suppose going racing half ass and getting it's ass wiped by every other car is cool then...

 

[The359]

Like I said, did you think the Oreca/Factory Backed days were going to last forever? They won everything out there that was able to be won with those cars.

And the current Vipers are doing quite well in Speed GT, FFSA, FIA GT, BelCar, etc.

And if you think the rollbar and hood going forward made the Viper unique, then I guess you missed my pointing out that the Corvette also has its good go forward, as do numerous other sportscars (DB7, DB9, Vanquish, 550/575, Tuscan just to name a few off hand). Obviously you don't know the word unique.

And if the rollbar made the Viper so unique, explain the Viper GTS...

 

[VIPFREAK]

ok whatever... they are doing good then. Doesn't mean jack squate to me because the only race that really counts is ALMS and all I see are them damn corvettes with out any competition... same for those stupid Audis.

 

[VIPFREAK]

oh yeah duh it goes forward but it's the way it was designed that make it unique. Now it's just a regular hood. whoo hoo that's original.

 

[Duke]

Everyone who likes Chrysler or Dodge claims that when Daimler merged with Chrysler, it was actually a buyout or even a takeover. These people are freaking loons, because, except for the fact that Daimler did in fact merge with Chrysler, they can't come up with one single thing that's worse now.

I can come up with a lot of things that are worse:

1) Chrysler's cash situation. Daimler transferred most liquid assets to Germany - and I'm talking hundreds of millions of dollars, near a billion - and then blamed the resulting cashflow problems Chrysler experienced on "mismanagement" and used it as an excuse to fire half of Chrysler's board and shut down numerous plants. All while claiming Chrysler couldn't afford to develop their own new cars anymore, which actually was a setup for #3 below.

2) Tom Gale now works for GM. That alone is enough to inspire a bitter fury of resentment against Daimler. Bob Lutz is gone. Bob Eaton is still there. Those three things are much worse now than when Chrysler actually existed as a company. And that's leaving Jurgen totally out of the equation.

3) Engineering. Chrysler was at the top of their game when they got sold down the river, and they were only getting better. Viper, Prowler, even PT for a bit of sizzle and a lot of great value cars for backup. The vaunted "Mercedes engineering" everybody raves about is actually all obsolete. It's all discontinued Mercedes stuff that Daimler forced Chrysler to use, then backcharged Chrysler an enormous amount of money for the "privelege" of using it. Crossfire? Don't make me laugh. If I wanted a 4-year-old SLK, I'd buy a 4-year-old SLK, and save money on it. And all this while Daimler was screaming that Chrysler couldn't afford to engineer their own products, despite the fact that they had just brought the Neon (a value-performance leader) from concept to production prototype in under 16 months, saving hundreds of millions of dollars, and allowing it to be the first American small car that ever turned a direct profit instead of being a loss-leader.

In fact, before DaimlerChrysler, Chrysler had a hard time capitalizing on two products that should've been substantial hits. First it was the LH sedans, the Chrysler Concorde, Eagle Vision, Chrysler New Yorker, Chrysler Fifth Avenue, and Dodge Intrepid - on paper and on the road they were great and ConsumerReports, who never rates cars in their first year because they may be reliably unsound, gave them recommended ratings in their first year. Not surprisingly, they turned out to be reliably unsound and CR had to retract the ratings. The Dodge Stratus, Chrysler Cirrus, and Plymouth Breeze also took huge praise as Camry-beaters and the first real domestic follow-up to the 1986 Ford Taurus, but something somewhere failed and they were never as popular as they should've been.

So somehow this is Chrysler's failing? How exactly have those cars been tearing off the lot since? I will tell you - having owned and been involved with a number of the cheapest, best performing, most useful Mopar products ever made, quality is not nearly the issue that ConsumerRetards (and by extension, leagues of CloneRetards) makes it out to be. Certainly nothing compared to Ford, for instance, yet Ford doesn't carry the "we're Number Three" stigma that has been dumped on Chrysler products. I mean, no Chrysler owner ever got a recall notice that started with the words "Under NO circumstances should you continue operating this vehicle. Call our service department and we'll have it towed in so this repair can be performed if necessary.", such as happened on a couple of FoMoCos.

Chrysler and Dodge are also creating more defined identities - Chrysler for upscale people and Dodge for complete backwater hicks.

They had defined identities before: Plymouth was "value", Dodge was "performance and trucks", and Chrysler was "semi-luxury". Clear as a bell. Eagle was a mistake, though it served a purpose. But the core 3 brands were positioned well for what they did. Plymouth didn't die; it was starved to death. And having cheap Chryslers that should have been Plymouths is making the identity crisis worse, not better.

The Neon SRT and GT Cruiser were made over every possible hurdle that Daimler management could put in front of them. The SRT wouldn't even have been greenlighted except that some of the design team and a bunch of the key assembly line guys came up with an innovative assembly method on their own time that got the unit production cost below the nearly-impossible threshold Daimler management had set. And has Daimler allowed a single dollar for TV ads for the SRT? I've never seen one, despite the potential knockout it is. And still, it's Chrysler's fault that brand identity is a problem? Not.

In any event, I don't even think Daimler has very much influence on Chrysler's products. I mean, yeah, they share stuff but so do all other companies in partnership. Chrysler and Dodge products still reek of Chrysler and Dodge, not Mercedes - and you people act like that would be a bad thing.

Don't for one minute think it's a "mutual cooperation" thing. I know a number of Chrysler engineers on the inside. "Cooperation" would mean that Chrysler learned how to engineer better products from Mercedes while Mercedes learned how to build for volume efficiency from Chrysler. That would make sense. In actuality the "sharing stuff" to which you refer is Jurgen Schremp ordering Chrysler to buy overpriced Mercedes parts, then screaming at Chrysler that their profit margins are not wide enough.

DUH, Herr Dumbass.

Mercedes engineering hasn't done crap for Chrysler except make the direct costs of their cars more expensive.

 

[fast1]

Mercedes engineering hasn't done crap for Chrysler except make the direct costs of their cars more expensive.

Mercedes as a manufacturer was established on every market in the world before that, they had a car in every market segment and those cars were better than chryslers. Chrysler, on the other hand, is now making better cars than ever, it's the only american car maker that can actually sell cars in Europe, they are getting diesel engines and platforms for their cars from Mercedes. You know, Mercedes, the car maker that makes and is able to sell 150000$ cars.

Chrysler had more reasons to merge. The only reason I can think of for mercedes would be cutting development costs. And that was probably part of the deal, they invest in something together, mercedes can use it first, Chrysler can use it after a year or so. That makes sense to me.

 

[The359]

ok whatever... they are doing good then. Doesn't mean jack squate to me because the only race that really counts is ALMS and all I see are them damn corvettes with out any competition... same for those stupid Audis.

Maybe because the Oreca Vipers already won the championship for what, 2 years in a row? And had 3 LeMans class wins? And a Daytona 24 Hours overall win? And numerous FIA GT championships?

 

[1X83Z]

Mercedes engineering hasn't done crap for Chrysler except make the direct costs of their cars more expensive.

The one sentence that a consumer might actually care about. And to that end, Chrysler products are no more expensive now than they were before the merger.

I don't care if you think Mercedes holds up engineering, or delays production, or the right people are in the wrong place, or whatever - when push comes to shove, the only thing that matters is the product. And right now, Chrysler products are pretty good.

And has Daimler allowed a single dollar for TV ads for the SRT? I've never seen one, despite the potential knockout it is.

Seen a lot of ads for AMG? Or BMW M? Or even SVT? Or Jaguar R? Or Cadillac V? Performance line ads, when they are shown, serve the simple purpose to boost brand image - a problem which Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep do not have. Performance line ads don't sell cars. Maybe performance line cars, but those are fringe buys and besides, the only people buying those models already know the cars exist. Nobody looking at a Silverado SS and SVT Lightning is going to see a Ram SRT-10 ad on TV and say, "wow - I've never heard of that!"

Product, product, product. Consumer, consumer, consumer. That's the only thing that matters.

 

[The359]

Well, Dodge DOES have a nice ad for the Ram SRT-10.

 

[JohnBM01]

Not to discuss another topic I've made here, but what do you think about that Chery Crossover (is that what it's called?) and the hot water it's in with Chrysler?

 

[Duke]

I don't care if you think Mercedes holds up engineering, or delays production, or the right people are in the wrong place, or whatever - when push comes to shove, the only thing that matters is the product. And right now, Chrysler products are pretty good.

So in other words, Mopar fans can't come up with anything that's worse since the merger because you're going to simply define every reason as irrelevant.

 

[neanderthal]

All I gotta say is **** Daimler... they screwed over the Viper and Chrysler. BTW, M5power or Daan will probably post factual or technical crap that they didn't... I don't care.

stupidity should hurt. esp if people dont care about facts. keep wallowing in your ignorance.


safety regs are one of the reasons that make more cars change thier hood design to one that opens backwards than forwards. early cars with forward opening hood designs were prone to knifing through the A pillars in frontal crashes. it takes a lot of engineering to get one to open forwards and meet safety, crash and so on regulations.
as for the roll hoop. big deal.




------------------------------

chrysler did have vast amounts of cash before the merger. that cash was the result of two hot selling vehicles, the caravan (and clones) and the jeep grand cherokee, which was the "upscale" suv of the early/ mid nineties. inside chrysler it was also known as "the franchise." it was built to replace the aging cherokee that had been in production from the mid eighties but upon introduction, demand was so high, and price crept up sufficiently for chrysler to simply reengineer the cherokee and sell it as a lower priced model. since the tooling had alreasy been paid for, all sales of the cherokee were easy money. this meant that the grand cherokee, which was originally produced to sell at lower prices, was literally a cash cow for chrysler as they sold it for twice or more what they orginally intended to. installing the 318cu engine was stroke of genius as it allowed a distinction no other SUV that size could boast. it also usefully increased the towing capacity and sport and general utility portions of the vehicle.

pretty much everything else in the stable sucked, although, as noted, they had some diamonds in the rough in the form of the LH cars and the stratus/ breeze/ cirrus. which were underdeveloped, illogically marketed and underutilised. they did seriously have a chance to compete well against the japanese midsizers of the time but came short in a few key areas. chryslers troubled past didn't help.

in the mid/ late nineties every manufacturer designed, developed and introduced their own version of either a minivan or SUV, seriously eroding the market share, and cash flow of chrysler. (the ram was a huge success after introduction but had numerous recalls that affected its profitability.) it was at that point that the "merger" took place. chrysler was flush with cash, but poor with product. its products were losing market share hand over fist to newer models from the competition. at one point chrysler had 80% or so of the minivan market.

the future of any cash rich car company is always assured, but not guaranteed to last. the major players knew that. eaton, lutz and co essentially sold the company to mercedes and profited greatly personally.

 

[neanderthal]

while the pt cruser was also a stroke of genuis the engineering wasnt quite so hot. major hard points are sufficiently different from the neon that it cant be assembled on the same assembly line.

the SRT 4 needed to be made in "x" amount of time like a regular neon because inexpensive cars dont leave much room for profit. and good line speed keeps costs down. raising the price too much would restrict its sales if it started to creep into the high twenties.
one of the reasons why the E30 M3 cost so much is coz it had to be built on a nearly dedicated assembly line. you can afford that sort of luxury when you're charging twice the price of the base model. show me an SRT 4 that retails for $30 grand.