Defending vs blocking?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by calvinnelms, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. calvinnelms

    calvinnelms

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    Hi,

    I’m fairly new to the forum and new to the online races, rating of C and S for DR and SR. I finished one of the daily races today and was accused of blocking. I was leading the race and we were on the final few laps and I was taking what I thought was a more defensive line to hold my position.

    Is taking a defensive line considered blocking? When is it okay to defend and at what point does defending become blocking?

    I ended up placing 4th since he bumped me to the side, but such is life.
     
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  2. BigJimmy

    BigJimmy

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    Depends how much you were weaving around in the braking area and on corner exit I guess.
     
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  3. Aphelion

    Aphelion

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    The simplest rule of thumb that ive heard described is once you have chosen your line ( usually well before the corner) you can make one defensive adjustment to your line. Any more than that and you are usually just being dangerous.
     
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  4. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    If someone is getting a run on you and you suddenly move on their line, that's blocking. Would have to see how much of a defensive line is taken. Sometimes just staying on the racing line is good defending.
     
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  5. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    Taking a defensive line is not considered blocking. If you're in front you have the right to take whatever line you wish in & out of corners & down the straight in order to defend your position. Blocking is defined as weaving left and right all over the track with your eyes on the mirrors trying to stop someone from passing you. Once you've chosen your line into a corner or down a straight, stick to it. Deviating from your chosen line again & again is considered blocking, just taking a defensive line is not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  6. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Blocking is driving in the mirror, mirroring the moves of the car behind you to prevent them from passing.

    Defending is making one move to chose a defensive line. As long as you're still ahead you are allowed to move back to the racing line before the braking zone. Both should be done safely before the car behind has a run on you. They are responsible to back off before the corner if they haven't established significant overlap yet, but you can't bump their nose out of the way to move back to your preferred line.

    Most people also consider it blocking when you dive back to the inside at corner exit, basically chose a line before the corner and complete it. No weaving in the braking zone nor the corner.

    Sometimes the best defense is to drive in the middle through the corner. As long as the track is wide enough that there is room for other cars (driving in the middle at Bathurst is considered blocking) and you stick to a stable line, they have the choice to make to go inside or outside. Always leave room.
     
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  7. p78

    p78

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    Next time, hit the share button, one image says more then 1000 words.
     
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  8. calvinnelms

    calvinnelms

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    Thanks all, great feedback! It sounds like it all comes down to picking a line and sticking to it.
    The race was at Tsukuba, most of my defenses were driving through the middle into corner 1 and then exiting wide left to give me the best position for the next few corners.

    Wish I had saved the race footage afterwards... I'm know I didn't race it perfectly...
     
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  9. DanSHW

    DanSHW

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    Tsukuba this week with the MX-5 is great for defensive driving, if someone's driving defensively well, you need to be noticeably faster to make a clean pass, if you're only a little bit faster, you can only really sit as close as possible to try and force an error. If someone's blocking, it tends to mean they know they're too slow to keep you behind fairly, and will make a mistake if you apply some pressure.
     
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  10. 6BK

    6BK

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    @Sven Jurgens sums up a lot of it there. No mirroring, pick a line, make 1 move to defend it, have the right to get back in line after the defensive move. Taking a "middle" line is a good move.

    If you make a defensive move you have the right also to move back into the correct racing line again. However, sudden or unexpected moves inside the braking zone should not be taken. So if you find yourself off the racing line and also in the braking zone then you don't have the right to switch back mid turn.

    A debatable issue, and one I think a lot of game players just don't get, is not just he issue of the defensive line but also defensive speed. Yes, you do have the right to pick your line, you are the car in front. You also have the right to chose your speed. Granted, going slow opens you to attack and so that is a tactical choice, but if you are not weaving and not mirroring the moves of the car behind then they can hardly complain if you are going slower. This "lingering" is not the same as brake checking. Hitting the brakes to get your car to slow momentarily in order to cause the car behind to react by braking or making an evasive maneuver is wrong. Also, not accelerating out of a corner when any reasonable driver behind you would expect you to is dangerous because they accelerate and find that you have not progressed thus causing them to make an evasive move (not intending to open the debate on any specific move here...:D) . But, and here's the grey area, you do have a right to control the speed within a reasonable amount. In gaming I find that every driver behind thinks they have a divine right to be in front and a car going slow ahead will get nudged or rammed out of the way as @calvinnelms discovered. But that driver in front did have a right to take a defensive line AND defensive speed and the driver behind only had the right to take advantage of this slower speed and make an overtaking move if and when it was safe to do so without making contact with the car ahead.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  11. O604

    O604

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    I like @Sven Jurgens "always leave room" comment.

    My general attitude is deliberate impeding of a car should be avoided. Because that's how I like to race. Don't like my flow disrupted so don't want to mess any one else's.

    But in the final turns of a close race I have got into a few questionable situations. Honestly I'm not sure if that's what you're allowed to or supposed to do or not. I wish I knew.
     
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  12. Kevstah2004

    Kevstah2004

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    If you believe in sportsmanship don’t drive like Schumacher and get involved in pissing contests.
     
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  13. GTR365

    GTR365 Premium

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    This is such an objective issue. Ask any race steward who has been forced to make a call on some situation which ended in tears. Sometimes 'no call' seems to be a correct evaluation.

    Many worthy viewpoints precede mine here. I prefer to use the conceptual terms 'proactive' & 'reactive' to assess who primarily is responsible for fault in an alleged conflict. In braking zones, especially where the speed delta (of trap speed to corner entry speed) is great, I like to believe a driver has one chance to establish a primary line & then one chance to choose an alternative line. This leading driver, however, must make these moves not in hasty response to the progress of a trailing driver. Make a bed & lie in it, as it were. More lateral movement than this is acceptable only in response to unexpected traffic obstructions directly ahead, that is, collision avoidance. Furthermore, I believe that the driver ahead has priority of line choice above those driving behind, even if only two thirds car length behind.

    We must recognize the fourth dimension, namely time. Others have mentioned concepts like brake checking & delayed acceleration. This temporal consideration comes into play in varied forms. I am fond of using subtle adjustments of racing rhythm cadence to control the pace of followers. Similarly, lateral movements may be slower resembling fades rather than quick crab walks to an alternative lane. Keep 'em wonderin', I say. These tactics also can be useful in tire/fuel preservation. They also can provide a tenth or two of grace lead to hold another driver at bay for another turn or two. Excessive, deliberate fluctuations of flow are neither warranted nor welcome.

    Remember that these conflicts occur in many areas of the track, not just braking zones. Motion on longer straights can be useful in draft dodging. I recognize that this is not an instance of blocking introduced in the OP, but this exaggerated motion can fall under of the blanket of dirty driving. Also, on a grid start some car/driver combinations have an advantage. Line alteration here can prevent a 4WD vehicle from gaining a position early.

    Now for my disclaimer section. I (in my humble opinion:bowdown:) am not a dirty driver. I also, at C/S rating with merely two dozen races under my belt, am not an alien. I retired when I felt I had reached my reasonable potential (can't quit the day job) & when I disliked behavior of others which robbed me of my ability righteously to excel above them. Popeye The Sailor famously claimed, "I am what I am & that's all what I am." I'm quick enough to realize & to recognize when another is better. I don't just roll over, but I mostly operate under the principle that if I can't earn a position with my driving ability, I give way with no more than reasonable resistance. Viewed selfishly, I feel it is in my best interest to let a faster driver get on his way because this loses me less aggregate time, even if it costs me one position. If I permit an A driver through easily, the three B & C drivers still behind me aren't up my tailpipe as they would be if I give the A driver an unduly hard time. He's passing me either way, right? I firmly do not subscribe to the notion that rubbin's racin'. I give room where it is available. Sometimes I :censored: up a corner. Fine, my bad, go on by. If I can't hold someone back or get by someone without supplying the 'chrome horn', then I yield.
    Conversely, I'm not the slowest bee in the hive either. I appreciate clean driving from those few who are less skilled than I am which provides me a chance to pass where I'm clearly better.

    Thx for the discussion. I look forward to more opinions.
     
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  14. Slapped

    Slapped Premium

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    Damn, that's the only bloody way I can get round Bathurst.
     
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  15. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    This is what I consider dirty blocking and my 'subtle' way to deal with it.

    If you want to be on my bumper so badly....


    On the straights it's pretty bad sport to drive in the middle when the car behind has a better corner exit. However, the mountain section is not a good place to attempt a pass unless the car in front messes up. Sometimes you have to drive in the middle there to avoid an accident from pokey noses in bad places. 2 wide is certainly possible there, yet nobody gains anything from it and it usually ends with one car in the wall and the other a penalty.
     
  16. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Exactly. Players should watch any race at Bathurst and learn.
     
  17. Ashthebash

    Ashthebash

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    I think moving in reaction to what someone behind is doing is often blocking. Defensive driving is more often than not, in my opinion, making the first move. You might have a poor exit from a corner and just move to the inside to force them to go around the outside of the next bend, nothing wrong with that at all - as long as you leave them space. If they've got an overlap though you need to leave a car's width

    Regarding that, too many people like to gradually move across to push the car following them off the track when they've made an overlap. They defend the inside, force the car behind to go outside then ease back over to the racing line giving the car behind the two options of crashing or backing off. That stuff really does my head in and is definitely in the 'dirty' category
     
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  18. GTR365

    GTR365 Premium

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    This is a great point I forgot to mention. I've seen IRL instances which went way beyond just gentle pinching or crowding where another driver actually is forced off track following a corner exit or pushed nearly into the adjacent pit barrier on the S/F straight. Dirty pool! If someone gets past my rear wheel with more forward momentum while not out of control, so be it.
    I also wanted to clarify my point from an earlier post to differentiate it from this situation. My mention of 'fading' was describing the situation of a longer straight where all nearby drivers are well behind, not along side.
     
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  19. golfer07840

    golfer07840

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    the PD S/R System disagrees. I do this often and get the dreaded S/R down.

    I give up caring.