Determining countries of origin

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I had an interesting conversation with my brother last night. I was reading the French Cars thread and he argued that the Bugatti Veyron isn't a French car, it's German, because it was designed by German engineers working for a German company (Volkswagen). This spiraled into a long discussion in which we were unable to find any hard and fast rules governing how one should determine a car's country of origin. It's difficult to do so even on a case-by-case basis. Some factors in this determination include:

1. The country in which the highest level parent company is based (e.g. GM owns Volvo, so the highest level parent company for all Volvos is the United States)
2. The country in which the company is based, regardless of any larger companies that own said company.
3. The country in which the vehicle was designed.
4. The country that produced the vehicle's platform.
5. The country that produced the vehicle's engine.
6. The countries in which the vehicle is sold.
7. The country of origin put forth in the vehicle's marketing materials.
8. The country with which the vehicle is traditionally associated.

We decided that the country in which the vehicle is manufactured is not important, since the Neon was built in Mexico and it's clearly not a Mexican car, and many Toyotas are built in the United States but they're clearly not American cars.

Some of these are easy. The Chevrolet Malibu, for instance, works like this:

1. Parent company is GM (USA).
2. Company is Chevrolet (USA).
3. Designed in the USA.
4. Platform (Epsilon) was designed by GM (USA).
5. Engine (Ecotec) was designed by GM (USA).
6. Vehicle is sold primarily in the USA, though it is sold in other countries as well.
7. The car is marketed as an American car.
8. GM vehicles are traditionally considered to be American.

So the Malibu is an American car, through and through. There are challenges, though. Take the Dodge Charger:

1. Parent company is DaimlerChrysler (half German, half American).
2. Company is Dodge (USA).
3. Designed in the USA.
4. Platform is from an older Mercedes-Benz E-class (Germany).
5. Engine is American.
6. Vehicle is sold primarily in the USA.
7. Car is marketed as being a fusion of American and German engineering.
8. Dodge and Chrysler vehicles are traditionally American.

So what is it? American or German? I'd argue the Charger is an American car... the design and ownership of it seems to be a roughly 50/50 split between the American and German halves, but the traditional association of Chrysler with the United States, along with the fact that it uses a traditional nameplate (Charger and 300 are both very old Chrysler car names) makes me think it's more American than German.

Last one, I promise. The Mazda6.

1. Parent company is Mazda (Japanese; Ford only owns 30% so they are not a parent company).
2. Company is Mazda (Japan).
3. Designed in Japan
4. Platform was designed by Mazda with help from Ford (primarily Japanese).
5. Engines include Mazda-developed I4s and a Ford V6 (Japanese and American).
6. Vehicle is sold in the USA, Europe, Australia, and in Japan as the Atenza.
7. The car is marketed as being Japanese.
8. Mazda is traditionally Japanese.

Is it Japanese? Probably so, but then what about the Ford Fusion, which uses the same primarily Japanese platform? Then again, the Fusion was designed by Ford, and only uses Ford engines.

I'd be interested to see peoples' opinions on various cars. Some of them (Vauxhalls and Opels) can get quite confusing.
 
I can help: The Veyron is not French in any way, shape or form, other than where it is built and the badge on the car (which are probably made in Germany as well). In fact, there hasn't been a French Bugatti since World War II.
 
The last time I checked, American cars by parts content require to be at least 75%. This means that import brand cars are also listed as domestics like the Toyota Camry for example.
 
When I set up the car battle forums, I decided to base the origin of the cars based on the origins of the company that builds them. Given that Bugatti was (and still kinda is) a French automobile company, I categorize the car as a French model.

But if we were to follow the rules, I would call the Bugatti Veyron just as German as a Bentley Continental GT. Although there is plenty of influence from their Germanic overlords, the cars are still quite different in their approach to the way things get done.

If I may do a breakup of the world automakers by corporate ownership, then by the individual companies:

- GM (USA):
Chevrolet (USA)
Pontiac (USA)
Saturn (USA/GER)
Buick (USA)
Cadillac (USA)
HUMMER (USA)
Saab (SWE)
Holden (AUS/GER)
Opel (GER)
Vauxhall (UK/GER)
Daewoo (KOR)
Suzuki (JPN)
Isuzu (JPN)

- Ford (USA):
Ford (USA/UK)
Mercury (USA)
Lincoln (USA)
Land Rover (UK)
Jaguar (UK)
Aston Martin (UK)
Mazda (JPN)
Volvo (SWE)

- Daimler Chrysler (GER/USA):
Mercedes-Benz (GER)
Maybach (GER)
SMART (GER)
GEM (GER)
Dodge (USA)
Jeep (USA)
Chrysler (USA)
Freightliner (USA)

VAG (GER):
Bugatti (FRA)
Lamborghini (ITA)
Bentley (UK)
Audi (GER)
Volkswagen (GER)
SEAT (ES)
Skoda (CZ)

- BMW (GER):
BMW (GER)
MINI (UK)

- Porsche (GER)

- PSA (FRA)
Peugeot (FRA)
Citroen (FRA)

- Renault/Nissan (FRA/JPN):
Renault (FRA)
Nissan (JPN)
Infiniti (JPN)

- Honda (JPN):
Honda (JPN)
Acura (USA/JPN)

- Subaru (JPN)

- Mitsubishi (JPN)

- Toyota (JPN):
Toyota (JPN)
Lexus (JPN)
Scion (USA)
Dihatsu (JPN)
Hino (JPN)

- Proton (MAL)
Proton (MAL)
Lotus (UK)

- Perodua (MAL)

- FIAT (ITA):
FIAT (ITA)
Alfa Romeo (ITA)
Maserati (ITA)
Ferrari (ITA)

...I think thats all of the major automobile powers, no?
 
Here's one to ponder on

The Nissan 350Z

  • Designed by an Englishman
  • ...of Indian Origin
  • ...in an American Design studio
  • ...for a company based in Japan
  • ....but controlled by one based in France
  • ....but built in Japan

So what exactly does that make the 350Z?

Well Japanese in my opinion, but it does go to show how daft this can get.


Regards

Scaff
 
Well, look at the Epsilon models sold throughout the world. The Vectra is definately German by design, but it's variants are built in Germany, England and in the US. The ECOTEC engine that many of them use was designed in Germany, some of them worked over in the US and constructed here or in Canada, etc.

That car is a mess, and it would come down to model to determine country of origin, maybe...
 
I do as YSSMAN does.

I label them where the company is from. Labeling them by who designed them would be very strange. That would mean the Murcielago is German, yet the Miura is Italian.

Not to many people know who designed cars, whose the parent company, where the car is built, etc., so I think most including some auto magazines are used to categoring manufacturers and their cars by which company the companys were based in. Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz>Germany, GM, Ford, Dodge/Chrysler>America, Honda, Nissan, Toyota>Japan, etc.
 
Toronado
I can help: The Veyron is not French in any way, shape or form, other than where it is built and the badge on the car (which are probably made in Germany as well). In fact, there hasn't been a French Bugatti since World War II.
It's built in France, by French people, how does that automatically prevent it being French? I think it's down to you really, if you try to pin point a cars true origins you'll often be left with a large selection of parts from various different countries. I put it down to who builds the car, if the cars built in England it's British, if it's built in Germany it's German. Hell if I import a load of bricks from France, get Spanish cement and load of German tools and build a house in England, what is the origin of my house?

It's most of the time down to personal choice imo though a company like say TVR is a no brainer, started in Britain, British built and with British parts. But like I said, I go for the country the car is actually built in, a car built in England by English workers is most definitely English imo regardless of if it had an American engine, German chassis and Italian cows for the seats.
 
Is Bugatti truly French? Ettore Bugatti was quite Italian. An Italian-owned company, making part-Italian part-French designed cars, all made in France. Does that make it Swiss?

:dopey:
 
THE ONLY DETERMINANT:

2. The country in which the company is based, regardless of any larger companies that own said company.

McLaren and YSSMAN said this in effect as well, as will most credible people. As far as I'm concerned, this makes the Bugatti Veyron probably the only tossup in existence, however I would consider it French simply because the company was originally located there.
 
YSSMAN
If I may do a breakup of the world automakers by corporate ownership, then by the individual companies:

- GM (USA):
Chevrolet (USA)
Pontiac (USA)
Saturn (USA/GER)
Buick (USA)
Cadillac (USA)
HUMMER (USA)
Saab (SWE)
Holden (AUS/GER)
Opel (GER)
Vauxhall (UK/GER)
Daewoo (KOR)
Suzuki (JPN)
Isuzu (JPN)

Holden is Australian, Just because they also sell some rebaged Opel models doesn't mean they are German.


YSSMAN
The ECOTEC engine that many of them use was designed in Germany, some of them worked over in the US and constructed here or in Canada, etc.

I know Holden is a large manufacturer of family II Ecotec engines for export, I'm not sure of what percentage of the engines used are Holden built, but I know quite a lot.
 
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