DFGT twitchy under braking and extremely hard to control oversteer

[gtpcaine]

Race : Tsukuba 9hr Endurance A-Spec
Car : Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo (limited to 80% engine power to match computer AI Lap times)
Driving Aids : ALL OFF
Wheel : Driving Force GT -- Power Steering : Off -- Force Feedback : 7
Pad : D-Pad steering -- Steering Sensitivity : 7

I originally brought the wheel for the 2011 GT Academy, I received it the day the competition started, so didn't have much time to practice with it. I was using the wheel for several hours, trying to adjust to how it worked (I had been racing using the d-pad for 15 years) The wheel was lovely to use, when you got things right. But I noticed that if you just get a little out of shape how hard it was to correct the car without spinning out. Anyway, I played with a few settings, none really altering anything and as the competition was reaching its end I revered back to a pad, within two laps I had improved my time by about 2 seconds. The wheel went back into the box and was barely used again. However, since the 2011 F1 season finished, I was craving some racing action, so started playing GT5 again. And this is where we get to my issue.

Im doing a 9 hour endurance race, on a simple track in a relatively low power car. I completed 3 hours using the wheel, gradually lowering my lap times as I became more and more confident with the wheel. However, the same thing as last year. When you manage to keep everything smooth, its great. Go a little out of shape and it gets messy. After the first 3 hours, I decided to revert to the pad, and within a few laps had beaten my lap time by 1.5seconds and I could see exactly where I was losing the time. Under heavy braking, the car tries to overtake itself, with a pad this is easily corrected with virtually no time loss. With the wheel, I found myself going completely off-line just to keep the car pointing forwards. I tried braking a little earlier, and yes it stops the twitching but its also costing me time and speed. My corner apex speed was a little better with the wheel due to better throttle control but wouldn't make up for what I'd lost on corner entry. The main place I lose time though, is on corner exit. With the pad, I can just plant the 'X' button and power out, with a little countersteering costing me maybe a tenth or two. However with the wheel, If I just plant my foot on the throttle I end up sideways and just can't turn the wheel enough, fast enough. So I eased onto the throttle rather than just planting it and yes, no more oversteer, but I have lost even more time and speed, which then reduces entry speed into the next corner and so on. Its not just on accelerating or braking, if I get a little oversteer on a highspeed corner, using a pad I can quite happily countersteer and "drift" round the corner losing a few tenths. With the wheel, I try to countersteer, to try and drift.. But I just end up off the track and losing 5+ seconds. So I take the corner a little slower, and only use roughly 75% throttle rather than 100% with the pad, I can feel the car is just about to step out but due to the lower speed I maintain control... But have lost time

I've tried playing with the car setup, wheel settings etc and nothing seems to fix it. It isn't just this car, its every car I've driven with the wheel. It seems that no matter what I do, a pad will always be easier and give a faster lap time.

Don't get me wrong, I love the wheel, because its harder, it makes it more fun for me because I always end up off the track and having to fight my way back through.

I know all the best players use wheels to set fast times, but I honestly don't know how, no matter what car or track, I'm always at least 1.5 seconds faster on a pad, even after over an hour with the wheel. There is probably nothing wrong with the wheel, and its probably just my aggressive driving style that I've had for over 15 years, but is there a possibility a faulty wheel could be causing my problems?

 

[byegad]

Try turning down the feedback a touch and turning the sensitivity to 0. Mine feels very like my road car on these settings. Also try turning the rear brakes down by 1.

I agree the DS3 gets you out of trouble faster, after all you can go from full left to full right lock in a twitch of the thumb, but it's hardly realistic.

 

[gtpcaine]

Does the controller sensitivity affect wheels aswell? I didn't think so as it only mentions controllers on the tooltip, but I will give it a try. However, how will turning down the rear brakes help, because under heavy braking the rear of the car is trying to overtake the front, surely adding more to the rear would stop that -- gonna try that out too, but im at 5-5 already so unsure about putting more bias towards the rear

 

[iamsupernasty]

You need to start the game over using the wheel. You clearly just arent getting a good feel for it.

On another note, You shouldn be mashing the gas anyway, as you always want to ease onto the pedal.... Same with the controller.

For what it's worth though, the G27 is miles easier to correct oversteer on than the dfgt.

In response to above, you almost always want more brakes in front.

 

[gtpcaine]

yeah i usually run 7-3 or 6-4 depending on car, but kept puttin it rearwards to stop the oversteer.

as for throttle control, with this car inparticular, just mashing it on the pad i can pretty much maintain traction, with the pedals however, flooring it just spins the wheels, its like the pad doesnt put as much power through the wheels as the pedals do but i know thats not true

 

[adeathnote]

My only advice would be to slow down and learn with the wheel. You can't slam in and out of corners w/ FF. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

 

[adeathnote]

Also thought id add that you should go back and do beginning challenges with lower HP cars. Way easier to get a feel for the wheel and way easier to figure out your mistakes. There are a lot of nuances guiding your car around a track with a wheel that you just don't get a feel for with a controller.

 

[gtpcaine]

i can drive smoothly with the wheel, its just ALOT slower than with a pad.

 

[byegad]

However, how will turning down the rear brakes help, because under heavy braking the rear of the car is trying to overtake the front, surely adding more to the rear would stop that -- gonna try that out too, but im at 5-5 already so unsure about putting more bias towards the rear

I typically run a MR car at 8 or 9 front and 2, 3 or 4 rear. Adding more rear, or reducing the front makes the car squirrelly. I feel its because the front wheels are doing most of the braking (weight transfers forward) and the rear's are locking up. Anyway whatever the real world solution It makes the car brake in a straight line, and I can even brake in a gentle curve without the rear spinning me out.

 

[another_jakhole]

CALIBRATE the pedals. Push them all the way down after you've started up GT5. I used to think you could only calibrate them when you're on the track when you can really do it anywhere.

Brake pedal works as the back button/Gas pedal works as the confirm button.

just make sure you fully press the pedals down

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sensitivity does not affect steering wheels no matter what anyone says and the DFGT is not programmed for the Amateur/Professional etc. settings in the GT5 Options menu. Sounds like a brake balance and or/ tune issue. As mentioned above, a 6/4 or 5/4 or 5/3 balance might help with that. I've run many cars/races with lower balances like 3/2, 4/2 etc. Braking distances are only slightly longer but it's less likely to unbalance the car and you can actually be smoother and faster. I finished in the top 200 in the FGT Time Trial with a 1/0 brake balance Putting bias to the rear will not fix the problem, it'll just make it worse. And don't be afraid to experiment with extreme settings like 5/1 etc.

Not familiar with this car, but there are some cars that just don't like trail braking, usually MR cars and this could be one of them.

 

[adeathnote]

i can drive smoothly with the wheel, its just ALOT slower than with a pad.

Maybe i'm wrong... or can't read. These are all the lines i noticed just glancing describing your experience w/ the wheel. Trying to switch from controller driving to wheel driving with too much car is your problem.
The reason its slower is because your having to coast into corners. Start over in challenges and work your way up. It'll make it right as rain

I noticed that if you just get a little out of shape how hard it was to correct the car without spinning out.

Go a little out of shape and it gets messy.

With the wheel, I found myself going completely off-line just to keep the car pointing forwards. I tried braking a little earlier, and yes it stops the twitching but its also costing me time and speed. My corner apex speed was a little better with the wheel due to better throttle control but wouldn't make up for what I'd lost on corner entry.

Its not just on accelerating or braking, if I get a little oversteer on a highspeed corner, using a pad I can quite happily countersteer and "drift" round the corner losing a few tenths. With the wheel, I try to countersteer, to try and drift.. But I just end up off the track and losing 5+ seconds. So I take the corner a little slower, and only use roughly 75% throttle rather than 100% with the pad, I can feel the car is just about to step out but due to the lower speed I maintain control... But have lost time

 

[McKiernan]

I switched from a pad to a wheel just in time for GT5Prologue & I am faster with a wheel, but it didn't happen overnight. Like pretty much everything practice makes perfect.

I admire that you are running no aids at all, most people on here use ABS on 1 & this is a huge help with stopping the rear wheels locking up, allowing you to break later & harder, but if you're gonna continue without aids I would definitely try alternating the break balance as others have said.

The controller sensitivity tool does not effect any of the wheels, it is for the DS3 only.

If I were you I'd re-try the licence tests & special events for practice, by the time you've done well with them you should have adjusted to driving with a wheel. You will have to adjust your driving style a bit, but stick with it, be patient & you will get faster

 

[Lustika]

Good points and this is nice reading for me since I am faster with DS3 than my wheel except when I go in x2010. Could not do vettel challenge with DS3 better than bronze but with the wheel there was no problem golding them.
It makes me a bit angry that I m faster with ds3 and I really dont like the 900 degree. Earlier with gt1 to gt4 I used an old wheel with 200 degree and that was no problem.
Some day I will be faster with the wheel cause everyone here says it takes practice and for me its a challange and those are allways fun

 

[Apmaddock]

I noticed that you have max steering sensitivity with the DS3. Think about how unrealistic that is. Like someone else pointed out, you can go from lock to lock with the flick of your thumb. Even with cars with the most sensitive steering that is impossible.

The result of that is that you've become used to it and desensitized to the idea that it takes time to steer those front wheels. When you switch to the wheel you suddenly go from .05 seconds from lock to lock to .5 (estimates for purpose of illustration)

It's no wonder you are having a harder time controlling oversteer when things are that different between your input devices.

 

[iamjajo]

In my opinion, when you use a controller you are playing a game, and when you use a wheel you are driving a car.

I've found that most car setups for controllers don't work well with a wheel, and vice versa.

I would suggest you look at the Apex book for for setup guidance, or even look in the tuning forums...if you are serious about using a wheel.

 

[stormbringer]

everyone (including me) has had problems getting used to a wheel after using a DS3.
Your lap times will improve after a week to a month or so of practice on the wheel.

the wheel is a better controller for every aspect of this game. Gives you more range for steering and throttle, and in doing so gives you more control over your car.

Stick with it and you will improve. I started up a new profile so i could play the game from scratch with the wheel.

 

[gtpcaine]

well, 5 hours of wheel usage and I managed one lap 0.2 seconds slower than my DS3 time! Perhaps I have been looking at it from a different angle aswell... my wheel lap times were (on average) about 1.5 seconds slower by the end of the 9hr race compared to my DS3 lap times, but my tyres were lasting twice as long, thus making 1 less pitstop, the extra fuel required at the single stop cost less time to refill than making two stops with less fuel.. so although the lap time doesn't show it, I was actually faster over a 30 minute period.

After the race I done a practice on the same track in the same car, and I played with the brake bias and suspension settings etc, and eventually managed to find a setup that suited my driving with the wheel.

One thing I found which helped me improve my wheel lap time, but that made my DS3 lap time worse was adding ballast weight to the rear of the car. The rear is extremely light, hence the twitchyness. By adding weight to the rear it helped balance the car under braking and accelerating (where I was struggling with the wheel) and the time I gained on corner exit and entry was more than the time I lost due to the extra weight.

On a different note, just tried the Nissan GT-R trophy on the Ring with the wheel: 7:24.483 first lap

 

[Johnnypenso]

well, 5 hours of wheel usage and I managed one lap 0.2 seconds slower than my DS3 time! Perhaps I have been looking at it from a different angle aswell... my wheel lap times were (on average) about 1.5 seconds slower by the end of the 9hr race compared to my DS3 lap times, but my tyres were lasting twice as long, thus making 1 less pitstop, the extra fuel required at the single stop cost less time to refill than making two stops with less fuel.. so although the lap time doesn't show it, I was actually faster over a 30 minute period.

After the race I done a practice on the same track in the same car, and I played with the brake bias and suspension settings etc, and eventually managed to find a setup that suited my driving with the wheel.

One thing I found which helped me improve my wheel lap time, but that made my DS3 lap time worse was adding ballast weight to the rear of the car. The rear is extremely light, hence the twitchyness. By adding weight to the rear it helped balance the car under braking and accelerating (where I was struggling with the wheel) and the time I gained on corner exit and entry was more than the time I lost due to the extra weight.

On a different note, just tried the Nissan GT-R trophy on the Ring with the wheel: 7:24.483 first lap

If you want, I can send you one of my very neutral, balanced tunes, say around 450PP on Sports Tires, and you can test that out. That'll tell you if it's the tune or you that's the culprit.

 

[byegad]

I had cars set up (Using suspension settings.) to oversteer on entry to corners when I relied on the DS3. I also had very low settings for the Differential. Typically 5 12 5 for a 600bhp sports car on RS tyres.

For the wheel (A DFGT.) a slight under steer and 5 35 15 works better, and yes I'm now definitely faster with the wheel than I was with the DS3. How much faster? Well I won the German Touring cars series three times with no break or restarts with gold in all three races with three different cars today. No SRF, no ASM, Traction at 1 ABS at 1. Best I managed with the DS3 was Gold, Silver and Bronze in that order and it took several attempts to do it.