Discuss:RWD vs. AWD Touring and Driving Style

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DeepFreeze

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I have recently (in GT4 anyway) fell in love with RWD. I am a real life AWD junkie. The performance on a street level is unmatched to me. Especially with the poor roads in VA.

However, what I want to discuss is how do others drive and their attack method for general courses, and how this method coincides with their driving style and AWD vs. RWD vehicle choice.

I.e. I enjoy the tossability of RWD, such as BMW or Nissan 240, 280, 300Zx or Skyline RWD or even and NSX. I have a tendency to approach the apex very well, but love a wide,deep exit, however, I carry a bit of speed, so i need to add more accelerator to rotate the rear. VS my AWD style, to which I carry less speed, but make up for it with AWD power to pull me thru the turn.

eleborate folks :)
 
In rear drive, there is always the advantage of kicking the rear out and light up the wheels in opposite lock.

Audi in the late 80's campaigned in Trans-Am w/ the 200 production based and then IMSA GTO w/ the 90 coupe silhouette with their Quattro. They flatout dominated despite weight penalties.
 
I definetely prefer rear-wheel-drive over AWD. One RWD aspect that I sorely miss is lift-off oversteer (there's a bit there, but not much), that's always a ball in RWD cars!
 
I like both styles. When cornering, it feels best the earlier you start to accelerate. That's a plus for RWD.. in an AWD you get some understeer.
But i guess what counts most is the weight. So RWD wins by a little bit.
In case the car oversteer (a lot) then i prefer understeer, but that's a different matter.
I also like FF's, but in GT4 they look like screwed somehow... no idea.

Nice topic 👍
 
Actually, the front-drive handling is remarkably accurate. I've been out on the track for real in a front-drive car (me driving, of course), and they seem to have done a fantastic job simulating understeer in that game :)
 
The Driver
Actually, the front-drive handling is remarkably accurate. I've been out on the track for real in a front-drive car (me driving, of course), and they seem to have done a fantastic job simulating understeer in that game :)
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I guess I do agree.

Having also driver 3 different front wheel drive cars, 2 rwd, and 2 awd cars. Ive experience them all. controllable center diffsm which change power from front to rear, and a sway bar will make the AWD more neutral or even 5% Rear biased.

I am looking for a new car as of this month though. I think I am going to go RWD. unless something AWD sick comes along. I do visits road courses biannually, so my car is almost always ready for serious driving in 24 hrs.
 
I find that FWD and AWD suffer a fair bit in GT4. We've come to the conclusion that it has more to do with the lack of reaction (esp lift-off oversteer in FWD cars) than with understeer itself (which most ppl blame), which (as you rightly point out) is accurately portrayed in GT4.

It was discussed a fair bit here and elsewhere but mostly in relation to FWD. Some of the same things apply to AWD, though, with added drive out of corners.

Overall, I find FWD and AWD disappointing, and RWD an absolute hoot in GT4. The good RWD cars are a joy (Lotus Elan, BMW 120, Caterham and many others) because you feel a direct connection with the front wheels - they REACT, and they become delicate instruments that you can place really accurately in a corner.

4WD I have less experience with, but the good ones (love the Audi S3 and Peugeot 205 T16, for example) are very good, and in the right place (Tsukuba wet), great fun. But they can also disappoint (Infineon...) when the understeer just gets in the way and you simply can't put the power down. Then you need to learn about chassis tuning...

It's a great game, ain't it? :D
 
I have also noticed its much more effective to drive the AWD cars, EVO, STi, Skyline, Audi without traction control, or Other driving aids.

they force AWD cars into an understeering mode. which is terrible, because most of those cars dont understeer with throttle contorl.
 
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they aren't.
In racing, practice trumps theory.

In theory, I like 4WD. In practice, I like RWD.

4WD is much harder to tune. But when properly tuned (such as an Audi Nuvolari without modification), you really can't tell it's a 4WD car.

This yet another case where "mileage" varies considerably. There are exceptions to all the generalities of both types of powertrains. It seems to boil down to the individual car once again. Even the general rule that 4WD is better for dirt and/or snow has exceptions -- e.g. winning Ice Arena in a 49 VW.
 
Well, I've driven competitively (SCCA autocross) in all three drivetrains, including a regional class championship in an AWD car (Evo 8).

IMHO, switching between AWD and FWD is easy and intuitive -- assuming that the AWD car is properly setup.

My competitive experience has been 95% AWD. The handful of times that I've driven FWD cars, I've felt right at home, in terms of making the car do what I want. The FWD car may not do some things as easily or as quickly as the AWD car, but you don't really need to adjust your driving style a whole lot beyond the basic performance differences of the cars. Also, I've had perhaps 8-10 other people drive my car, and those that have come from FWD cars seem to immediately be fast, while those who usually drive RWD take a little longer to find the same level of speed...

I think I've only autocrossed RWD vehicles 4 times -- a Corvette Z06, two different M3s, and a Camaro Z28. I did not feel comfortable in any of the four. I'm talking about driving them at 9/10ths or harder -- I'm sure I'd love an M3 as a daily driver, I just don't know how to drive one at the limit. RWD requires a very different style than AWD.
 
One more comment on AWD vs. FWD/RWD...

AWD setup is tricky compared to FWD/RWD. The big difference being the presence of three differentials on the AWD car, each of which is capable of mitigating setup problems in other areas (mainly suspension problems).

Because of all those differentials doing their job and sending the power where it can best be used, it can be very hard to "feel" whether a suspension change is a change for the better or a change for the worse. The problem gets even trickier when you have something like an ACD or AYC. The system that compensates for things like bumps/gravel/snow/rain and keeps the car stable is the same system that compensates for suspension setup mistakes.

Yes, you can setup an AWD car by the "seat of the pants", but you'll never get the last 10% of the way to a perfect setup that way; once you're that close, the car just feels "right" and does exactly what you want it to. It's just not as fast as it can get -- yet. Getting the last 10% is the hard part, because only the stopwatch can tell you what's fast and what's not, and because it's a moving target -- the optimal suspension setup will vary depending on the surface, the tire temperature, the fuel load, etc.

At least that's my take on it, as an amateur who has developed an AWD car to the 90% level...
 
I drive probably 65% RWD cars in GT4, 33% 4WD, and 2% FWD. I like the way that you can tune RWD and FWD cars so easily to handle better, but its even easier to overtune them (like putting 500HP on a FWD car) or getting too much oversteer on a RWD car. Thus I like driving a 4WD car much more because they are more rewarding to tune correctly and can even handle better than a RWD car in some circumstances. I've made them quicker off the line than a RWD car too, despite weighing about 200Kg more. Bottom line, both have their advantages, but I think 4WD triumphs in most circumstances (but I love the Viper GTS) :)
 
FastEddie12
I find that FWD and AWD suffer a fair bit in GT4. We've come to the conclusion that it has more to do with the lack of reaction (esp lift-off oversteer in FWD cars) than with understeer itself (which most ppl blame), which (as you rightly point out) is accurately portrayed in GT4.
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I agree. To put it into much simpler terms, there isn't enough oversteer, which makes a "realistic" amount of understeer feel like "too much."

FastEddie12
The good RWD cars are a joy (Lotus Elan, BMW 120, Caterham and many others) because you feel a direct connection with the front wheels - they REACT, and they become delicate instruments that you can place really accurately in a corner.
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I can't say I get that same feeling, having a direct connection with the front wheels, although I can certainly tell that the front wheels have a direct connection to the pavement, and with how the car behaves...why else would a powerful RWD whip out of a drift as soon as you countersteer, as if it was being pulled by the front wheels like a FWD?
 
Wolfe2x7
I agree. To put it into much simpler terms, there isn't enough oversteer, which makes a "realistic" amount of understeer feel like "too much."

I can't say I get that same feeling, having a direct connection with the front wheels, although I can certainly tell that the front wheels have a direct connection to the pavement, and with how the car behaves...why else would a powerful RWD whip out of a drift as soon as you countersteer, as if it was being pulled by the front wheels like a FWD?
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I have to agree. Drift steer and snap-oversteer are notorious. And as someone who has fought snap-oversteer a few times and won, GT4 does make it hard.

The only way Ive gotten the AWD monsters to function with the OVersteer of RWD, but pull thru like AWD is suspension tuning, rear antisway bar, and differential control.
 
I prefer Rear Wheel Drive, 4WD is ok, but RWD is funner with drifting an'all
 
Two different drive-train set ups, can't really be compared. I love them both, but I prefer AWD over RWD, I'm not one who cares for over steer too much.
 
-Cheezman-
Two different drive-train set ups, can't really be compared. I love them both, but I prefer AWD over RWD, I'm not one who cares for over steer too much.
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Well, from my travels to some race courses. Most AWD enth. have a bit less control of the vehicle and its dynamics. Whereas, people who handle RWD competently drive with a bit more consciousness to their vehicle and managing it at speed.

nothing against anyone. Hell, I used to crave AWD, but after pushing it in RWD, and knowing the limit, im happier in RWD.
 
DeepFreeze
Well, from my travels to some race courses. Most AWD enth. have a bit less control of the vehicle and its dynamics.
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I don't know if I'd agree with that, but I would say that driving a RWD car at the limit is a lot harder than driving an AWD car at the limit. The RWD car will punish mistakes much more severely. An AWD car gives you more ways to recover when you do make a mistake, so AWD drivers feel more comfortable in pushing the car beyond their comfort level. If that comes across as them having "a bit less control of the vehicle", that's only because they can get away with it more than a RWD driver can.
 
I just feel like throwing my two cents into this FWD chat.

How is FWD any better than AWD or RWD?

Pros to FWD
-Less maintenance than AWD
-Inexpensive set-up

Cons to FWD
-Torque Steer (most cars do actually suffer from this, it varies on the severity though)
-Terrible Understeer (more than many can drive with, I drive with understeer, but damn...)
-Slower through turn speeds (take an AWD, RWD and FWD around the same turn with the same HP and Torque, you will understand this one better, other factors apply too, but I'm sure we all know what they are.)

The Pros don't really make up for the Cons.

Now in GT4, FWD still shows, Terrible under steer, bad wheel spin (not a real world problem so it seems), and slower through turn speeds.

IMO, FWD is Wrong Wheel Drive. Now the above is only my opinion, and it will not change, so no flame is intended, or needed.
 
-Cheezman-
IMO, FWD is Wrong Wheel Drive. Now the above is only my opinion, and it will not change, so no flame is intended, or needed.
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Without flaming, I'll just say that FWD was never designed with racing in mind. Torque steer is only noticeable when pushing a car harder than 90% of drivers ever do. Likewise for understeer -- it's the correct car behavior for 90% of the driving public. And 90% of the public doesn't care to ever pull more than about 0.4 - 0.5 lateral Gs in a turn, and any car out there, FWD or otherwise, can do that on $19 economy tires.

If your argument is that FWD makes for a crappy race car, there's no debate, that's clearly true. But for most of the general population, FWD is fine, maybe even preferable. After driving RWD and AWD daily drivers from 1992 to 2004, I've been driving a FWD Volvo for the last two years, and it's a perfectly fine commuter car, even with its torque steer and understeer and everything else.



Just one more thought -- all of the bad things you mentioned about FWD can be fixed. Torque steer? Equal length halfshafts. Understeer? Rear toe-out. Low cornering speeds? Negative camber and sticky tires. But the fundamental thing you'll never fix is that you're giving the front tires essentially all of the work, while the rears are just along for the ride -- the joke is that the rear tires on a FWD car are only there to keep the muffler from dragging on the ground. I've never rotated the tires on my Volvo since putting the current tires on there 2 1/2 years ago (long story), and the front tires have about 5-10% of their useful tread left, while the rears have about 75% of the original tread. And that's during use as a commuter car.
 
jbrennen
If your argument is that FWD makes for a crappy race car, there's no debate, that's clearly true.
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That's the point I was going for. A daily driver is all a FWD should be.

Also, I never said anything was uncorrectable, I was just saying, thats how a lot of them come "off-the-shelf".
 
DeepFreeze
Who said anything about FWD? I specified AWD and RWD in this thread.
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💡

Re-read the thread...
 
I made the Thread.

Just drove an 06 WRX Imprezza.

not bad in stock form. fun to drive. even stock boost was okay.

i did notice the steering feel is not as good as some other AWD cars.
 
DeepFreeze
i did notice the steering feel is not as good as some other AWD cars.
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Tires, alignment and tire pressures can go a long way toward improving (or ruining) steering feel.

I'm not commenting on anything specific that I know about, just saying that if you jump into some particular car and it doesn't drive as well as you'd like, it could be that the car is poorly designed or it could be something else, something easy to fix. With a WRX, I'm inclined to think it might be something that can be fixed, because I've seen other reviews that liked the WRX's steering feel.

Unless the "other AWD cars" you're talking about include the WRX STi, Evo, and Porsche Carrera 4. In that case, yeah, the WRX steering will not feel as good as those. :)
 
Yeah. those are a few Ive driven.

In all honesty, The Porsche Carrera 4S is awesome.
 
Not all FWDs make for crappy racing cars, although there are admittedly not many that do it well. One that does race quite well is the Classic Mini Cooper S. One of those won the 1000km race at Bathurst as well as plenty of rallys over the years, and they still do quite well in historic racing.
I owned a 69 Mini Deluxe 1100 a few years ago and found I could drive a lot quicker on tight tracks and back roads than I could in an 88 3 litre (FR) Commodore.
 
chinny
Not all FWDs make for crappy racing cars, although there are admittedly not many that do it well. One that does race quite well is the Classic Mini Cooper S. One of those won the 1000km race at Bathurst as well as plenty of rallys over the years, and they still do quite well in historic racing.
I owned a 69 Mini Deluxe 1100 a few years ago and found I could drive a lot quicker on tight tracks and back roads than I could in an 88 3 litre (FR) Commodore.
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I agree. with the correct adjustments, and a tighter course with less traffic. a FF vehicle is capable. but if the budget reaches into the $1M mark. FF is no contest to other designs. ie RWD and AWD.
 
DeepFreeze
I agree. with the correct adjustments, and a tighter course with less traffic. a FF vehicle is capable. but if the budget reaches into the $1M mark. FF is no contest to other designs. ie RWD and AWD.
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That's the thing though, why invest so much money on making a FWD good when you can buy a RWD or AWD for a little more and still be able to mod it a fair amount?

Truthfully, if you want to spend the money on an FF, go for it, but there will always be a better RWD or AWD out there to take you. :lol:

As for the comment about the Minis. I agree. Minis make great track cars, because of their small wheel base, and their well designed front end, but I still would rather have something a little bit better "off-the-shelf".
 
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