Do Driver Aids hurt your Times?

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Pcaola

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Pauly295
I'm sorry if the questions been hashed out, if so, just link me a thread.

I absolutely understand that using the aids deters from really learning how to drive/race and can be like a crutch/training wheels. And I have no doubt, that racing with them off, and racing well, will produce excellent results. But I'm wondering, can a good player produce the same / almost the same times with the features on?

Paul
 
Pcaola
I'm sorry if the questions been hashed out, if so, just link me a thread.

I absolutely understand that using the aids deters from really learning how to drive/race and can be like a crutch/training wheels. And I have no doubt, that racing with them off, and racing well, will produce excellent results. But I'm wondering, can a good player produce the same / almost the same times with the features on?

Paul
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When you said a good player produce the same / almost the same times with the features on I say a big (No) to that
 
All driver aids hurt your times, with the exception of SRF which generally makes you go faster.


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VBR
All driver aids hurt your times, with the exception of SRF which generally makes you go faster.


👍
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ABS 0 isn't helpful either for the most, by far.
 
In theory, pushing the car to its limit, in control at all times, taking the right route = win. I'm doing very well with ABS 1 and low/no TC. But I'm thinking Skid Recovery actually may "help" the car run above its natural limit.

In A-Spec and Seasonals, does the AI run Skid Recovery and ASM? I'm thinking no but that's just a guess based on a lot of my Cape Ring runs. When running the ring, I almost always, 95% of the time, can pass or cut distance by a good chunk. Maybe the aids allow harder driving.

Even though I understand many people prefer the most realistic driving experience. I'm just experimenting with the game. Enjoying racing vs practice vs arcade.

Paul
 
Driver aids slow you to gkeep you on track. Turn them off and you will be quicker. Once you have learnt to drive.
 
Pcaola
In A-Spec and Seasonals, does the AI run Skid Recovery and ASM? I'm thinking no but that's just a guess based on a lot of my Cape Ring runs. When running the ring, I almost always, 95% of the time, can pass or cut distance by a good chunk. Maybe the aids allow harder driving.
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That seems pretty common at Cape Ring. I never use aids and I can fly right by the AI cars in the big ring, in either direction, even though they can hold their own elsewhere on the track. Maybe the AI has trouble with long arc turns like that? Though I haven’t really noticed anything like that in other long arc turns, such as the broad 180° turn in the Inside South part of Cape Ring, or the littler “ring” at Autumn Ring, or Daytona for that matter. Could be because the Cape Ring one goes uphill/downhill (depending on configuration) and that throws the AI coding off? *shrug*

As for the main topic: I think they do, or at least they can for someone who’s used to not using them. For example, I’d gotten only the A and B licenses, but the other day, I got around to getting the third (IC) license. For some reason, the license tests – of all things! – force certain driving aids on, and this can be a problem in some of them. One of them focused on the double-hairpin “S” section at the Indianapolis Road Course, and it was a RWD vehicle (of course :indiff:), but I couldn’t get it to powerslide (lay down more power than the rear wheels’ traction can hold, thus breaking that end of the car loose so it can swing around more quickly), at least not in the usual way, and had to work around the aids and coax it into sliding with other tricks such as trailbraking. (Despite the license description making a point of saying, “you’ll need to be careful with your throttle work in high-powered rear-wheel drive vehicles”!)

That’s the thing that bugs me about aids: although they keep you from losing traction when you don’t want to lose it, they also keep you from losing traction when you do want to lose it (in a controlled, intentional way). So they keep some tricks out of your reach, and any discussion of such tricks might as well bear the disclaimer, “May not actually work with certain driving aids enabled”.

I think, most of the driving aids are things that you could, in theory, get without aids by using careful control. ABS, for example, keeps the wheels from sliding when you brake too hard, which you can get without ABS by not braking too hard in the first place.
(In fact, I tend to have the opposite problem, I tend to err on the side of not braking hard enough, so I’m having to remind myself that it’s okay to let it slide a little bit, especially in a straight line.) (Unless it’s a RWD, many of which will spin out even when braking in a straight line. :indiff:)

That’s the best driving aid you can have: skill! With it, you’ll have all the benefits of driving with aids, and then some! :D
 
I think a little bit of ABS improves my times when I use a dualshock. I haven't tested it much with my wheel.

And real F1 cars use traction control (or they used to at least) so I use that to justify it sometimes when I can't handle high PP cars.
 
In most cases a good driver will be faster without Traction Control and ASM.

In most cases all drivers will be faster with ABS.

It depends on the power delivery, gearing, the tyres, the driver, control method, and the track.

Most people like to tune away the problem of wheelspin with their gear ratios.
A really tall 1st gear with crossed intermediate gears is a good way.

You get less power on the wheels in the slow corners, and with a crossed 'box you won't loose too much time when short shifting.
 
I have SRF on, TCS on half, and ABS on 1, the rest is off.

I feel pretty fast that way, have been experimenting for awhile, since GT5 first came out

I have found that having ABS on above 2 to be annoying, find ASM just annoying period, then there's TCS, it can be annoying if it's on above 7 for me, but it's also a little annoying if it's below 3-ish.

I used active steering once..........and immediately turned it off lol
 
vovillia
I have SRF on, TCS on half, and ABS on 1, the rest is off.

I feel pretty fast that way, have been experimenting for awhile, since GT5 first came out

I have found that having ABS on above 2 to be annoying, find ASM just annoying period, then there's TCS, it can be annoying if it's on above 7 for me, but it's also a little annoying if it's below 3-ish.

I used active steering once..........and immediately turned it off lol
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Traction control and ABS above 1 aren't really needed.
SRF on makes you faster than normal.
 
SRF, will make anyone faster (gives tires more than 100% grip).

ABS@ not 0, will be faster with a few exceptions.

TC is never faster but sometimes can match a guy with 'OK' throttle control. More likely to slow you down otherwise.

AS, can be 'OK', about the same as TC. Still more likely to slow you down.

Everything elses will make you slower every time.
 
Pcaola
In A-Spec and Seasonals, does the AI run Skid Recovery and ASM? I'm thinking no but that's just a guess based on a lot of my Cape Ring runs. When running the ring, I almost always, 95% of the time, can pass or cut distance by a good chunk. Maybe the aids allow harder driving.
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There seems to be a general AI problem with adjusting maximum corner speed for the camber of the corner. This is particularly pronounced on the Cape Ring spiral ramp, but you can see it happen other places too. The AI tends to be significantly slower through the corners on the Indy oval, for another example, and it really shows up on some of the course maker courses that are used for seasonal events.
 
Vegard
In most cases a good driver will be faster without Traction Control and ASM.

In most cases all drivers will be faster with ABS.

It depends on the power delivery, gearing, the tyres, the driver, control method, and the track.

Most people like to tune away the problem of wheelspin with their gear ratios.
A really tall 1st gear with crossed intermediate gears is a good way.

You get less power on the wheels in the slow corners, and with a crossed 'box you won't loose too much time when short shifting.
Click to expand...

+1 to this. One of the best ways I discovered that aids slow me down was in the license tests. Do the license tests and you will most likely notice this as well. With most road cars, all aids except ABS slow me down. I said "most", because there are some, such as the Enzo, that have alot of torque and BHP and have a hard time keeping the back end down without working with the gear ratio in 1st gear. If you're using a Dual Shock controller, it's difficult, because accelerator sensitivity is crap. It's difficult to feather the throttle. Practice makes perfect though. LMC and F1 cars are very difficult to control without some TC if using a Dual Shock, but if you can figure out how to accelerate smoothly, you'd be surprised at how much faster you can go without the aids. I still use ABS, which helps braking. Good luck.
 
Woohoo, my first post.

Wel here goes. I tried it on the Indy road course track driving the Corvette ZR1 (non race car) wich is a car that i love, but also find very chalenging to drive. As it really loves to break out it's rear end when getting on the power.
After i saw this thread last night i checked it on the 580pp american seasonal event. There i noticed skid recovery was on. So i went into practice and set up the car with the same tires and without ASM and Skid recovery, i was atleast 2 seconds slower then with skid recovery on and ASM off.
Now when i only turned on ASM i felt faster, but actualy was around a second slower then driving with both off. But the car was allot more stable.

I prefer to never use Skid recovery, as i consider it fake. Where as ASM is a feature found on real life cars under various names. Also i find ASM still allows for power slides while skid recovery really stiffens up the car.

As for other aids, the only aids i use are ABS on 1 and TC on 0-5 (most often on 3-5).
 
There is no generic black and white answer for aids except as it relates to specific drivers other than all drivers will be faster with SRF on, that is a given. A good, skilled, experienced driver will generally be slower with all other aids on, with the possible exception of active steering, which has little benefit to a good driver but probably won't hurt him either once he gets used to it.

But the question is really, will aids make me, meaning you, faster? Adding TC won't make me faster, but I use a G27 and have a lot of experience driving higher powered cars on lower grip tires. If you don't, or if you don't have the equipment, TC might make you faster with it on, not faster than me but faster than you would be without the aids, because you will spin out or lose control less. Same with ASM or any aid designed to help you maintain control of the car once you've exceeded it's limits. Your ultimate lap time potential is lowered slightly with the aids, but it might make you more consistent with far less penalizing mistakes, and lead to more consistent lap times for you.
 
I believe SRF will make most people on most tracks faster, simply becourse it gives you more grip, nomather how good or bad you are. However i think that in slow thight turns SRF will be slower.
 
Johnnypenso
There is no generic black and white answer for aids except as it relates to specific drivers other than all drivers will be faster with SRF on, that is a given. A good, skilled, experienced driver will generally be slower with all other aids on, with the possible exception of active steering, which has little benefit to a good driver but probably won't hurt him either once he gets used to it.

But the question is really, will aids make me, meaning you, faster? Adding TC won't make me faster, but I use a G27 and have a lot of experience driving higher powered cars on lower grip tires. If you don't, or if you don't have the equipment, TC might make you faster with it on, not faster than me but faster than you would be without the aids, because you will spin out or lose control less. Same with ASM or any aid designed to help you maintain control of the car once you've exceeded it's limits. Your ultimate lap time potential is lowered slightly with the aids, but it might make you more consistent with far less penalizing mistakes, and lead to more consistent lap times for you.
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Can't say it better than that really. I only use ABS=1 and all others off. The only time I would use them if they are forced or if there is a unique situation that hurts my driving style and setup. The time trial that had the F1 car in the rain is the most recent that I can think of. Having the aids off gives more feel to the car and it's natural tendencies, which hopefully can be suited to your liking by proper tuning.
 
Yes, some driver aids will hurt your times specifically TC. Never used ASM to compare.

I've been faster on TT's with Active Steering both mild and strong. Same with ABS 1.

SRF isn't worth mentioning as it's not allowed in any PD sanctioned TT or WRS. Plus it's a physics defying aid adding grip when tires begin to loose traction. There's no real life aid that it mimics like the others. Doubt it's used in any League or Club Racing. That said, most groups only allow ABS so that's a good reason to stay away from relying on them.

Initially in GT5 I used TC and other aids before I got experience. Now I use none not because I'm faster without them but because the driving experience is far better in my opinion.
 
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TCS and ABS to 1, at 0 cannot control car with DS3. ASM off gives a couple seconds faster , usually difference between gold and silver on Seasonal TT. But cars very easy to spin, particularly MR cars in esses. SRF usually leave off, unless forced on in Seasonal.
 
Thanks guys, It all makes sense. Some drivers will benefit from TC because the TC is trying to give him the best acceleration possible instead of the most wheel spin possible.
I guess somewhere I read about skid recovery force and how it "adds 15% grip " to help new players make their "turn" at a speed that could have been too much. Which means A. New players learn to play with it on using the advantage. B. even experienced players can leave it on knowing that overall it isn't hurting thri time or changing the way the car feels (by much) but its kinda like having a stickier set of tires on and can run the car 10% harder with skid recovery on.
I think of it as a perk or boost in other games. Call of Duty, adds 15% distance to your bullets or you take 15% less damage from enemy players. In other games you take the perk but have to decide which perks you want. GT5s skid recovery is a yes or no with no penalty for being yes so it could be used (abused) I guess to get better times.
Sorry if I got off track there .....lots of input from you guys though :-)

Been playing Forza4 for fun and to see the differences. The engine/exhaust sounds are almost erotic :). BUT the lack of detailed tuning, adjustments and even traction control or ABS is disappointing.
OhHH. Ohhhh. And it's my Birthday. I am 99% sure Grid2 is wrapped and sitting on the dining room table ! :-)
 
Pcaola
Thanks guys, It all makes sense. Some drivers will benefit from TC because the TC is trying to give him the best acceleration possible instead of the most wheel spin possible.
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This is wrong. TC is not trying to give the best acceleration possible. TC is trying to maintain traction with the drive wheels, even at the cost of acceleration. That's why it's faster to drive without it, because sometimes it's quicker to have a little wheelspin, and TC tends to be overaggressive in dampening the throttle to prevent wheelspin.
 
If the car doesn't have the features in real life, you shouldn't have them turned on when racing in GT5, and even further to that point, if they do have things like TC, shut them off. They hinder your cornering speed. I got to take my 2009 Honda Accord EX-L around Canadian Tire Motorsport Park (Mosport) for a few laps this summer. My car is equipped with TC and I assure you it was not on when I was on the track!!!
 
jdufour
If the car doesn't have the features in real life, you shouldn't have them turned on when racing in GT5, and even further to that point, if they do have things like TC, shut them off. They hinder your cornering speed. I got to take my 2009 Honda Accord EX-L around Canadian Tire Motorsport Park (Mosport) for a few laps this summer. My car is equipped with TC and I assure you it was not on when I was on the track!!!
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I think it is up to the invidual to choose what they want. I drive with a DS3 and some highpowered cars are virtualy undrivable without TC on and ABS on 1. You have to remember not everyone is able to micro manage their throttle on a DS3 lap after lap racing hard. I for one am a gamer, and yes i want realism as far as i can, but i still need to be able to have fun, and not get frustrated becourse i pressed the x button a mircomilimeter to far down.
So i rather have TC on a little, and that way actualy be a little faster then i would be without.
 
MrWednesday
This is wrong. TC is not trying to give the best acceleration possible. TC is trying to maintain traction with the drive wheels, even at the cost of acceleration. That's why it's faster to drive without it, because sometimes it's quicker to have a little wheelspin, and TC tends to be overaggressive in dampening the throttle to prevent wheelspin.
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I agree 100%. As in real life. It's giving. You the best acceleration possible....taking into account- safety, tire abuse, vehicle control. My 300C SRT8 with TC on launches FAST if I mash the throttle. With it off, I get smoke, squealing tires and a HUGE grin but definitely not jumping off the line like a rabbit. BUT, TC off and the right launch is the one that almost pulls the snot out of your nose..... Still with a grin though :-)

But I agree with some of the DS3 guys. I use the right analog stick mostly for throttle. I alternate between it and the RL1 buttons. And yes, some guys have excellent control with the DS3's. From playing other video games. With lots of all or nothing it's just getting new habits learned with limited play time. It's fun...and that's the point for me
 

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