Do newer model cars generally do faster laps, with the same pp?

[Adamaw11]

Do newer model cars generally do faster laps even with the same pp?

I'm starting to think they do, since I tried comparing an MR2 spyder '99 model with the '02 model of the same car. The '02 model seems to handle noticeably better and do faster laps - and more consistent, despite being lower pp (504 for the '02 and 508 for the '99) when fully tuned.
I can't see any other difference between the cars to explain the better handling of the newer one.

So I'm wondering if other people have noticed the same sort of thing with other models. I"m sure there'd be plenty of other examples of cars that are essentially the same but just different year model. It might be only a difference between '80s vs '90s vs '00s etc.

cheers.

 

[photonrider]

Generally, no. Can happen. But sometimes older cars are faster.

As well - PP is not really an objective measure of equilisation.
A lower PP car can sometimes blow a higher PP car out of the water; don't tangle with a Schwimmwagen unless you have lots of PP.

 

[JR98]

It depends how consistent you are, also it depends on the car. If you are comparing the same car but different year they are mostly the same performance. But if you tested two different cars of similar PP, say C7 Stingray VS GT-R '07, obviously the GT-R will win due to it being AWD and more power, even though the Vette is lighter and has 2 more PP. It all depends what you are comparing, what track you are comparing it on and how consistent your laps are.

For example, a C7 Vette, if you are careful gets a decent time on Laguna Seca (My favourite track), but the GT-R '07 smokes it by a good 2-3 seconds due to its supreme handling, once again an American car let down by its handling

 

[DolHaus]

In the many tests I've done when putting together challenges for FITT in the tuning forums I've found that when PP matched older cars tend to be slower, its not always the case but most of the time the older cars struggle to keep up with the modern stuff. Its a shame because it prevents "old vs. new" contests from being put together.
The PP system is also really patchy, just because they're the same rating doesn't mean they'll be anywhere near equal

 

[JR98]

In the many tests I've done when putting together challenges for FITT in the tuning forums I've found that when PP matched older cars tend to be slower, its not always the case but most of the time the older cars struggle to keep up with the modern stuff. Its a shame because it prevents "old vs. new" contests from being put together.
The PP system is also really patchy, just because they're the same rating doesn't mean they'll be anywhere near equal

Yeah, it seems PP is based on Power, Weight, Drivetrain, Torque and how much aero it has, but handling seems to not be a factor anymore. I hate to say it, being a massive GT fan but Forza's PI system is much better, as it takes everything into account even the tires, transmission and suspension change a cars PI.

 

[DolHaus]

Yeah, it seems PP is based on Power, Weight, Drivetrain, Torque and how much aero it has, but handling seems to not be a factor anymore. I hate to say it, being a massive GT fan but Forza's PI system is much better, as it takes everything into account even the tires, transmission and suspension change a cars PI.

Some cars have hidden values as well, they have extra grip values or more power than their stats would suggest. I agree that from what I've seen that Forza's system appears better, I've not played it but when I've watched various videos of races the cars are truly balanced, some are good in the corners some are good on the straights, the winner will usually be decided by the layout of the circuit and the driver behind the wheel.
Hopefully the PP system will get a serious going over on the next gen releases, I'm tired of having to run the same cars at time trials just because they're faster at certain ratings

 

[JR98]

Some cars have hidden values as well, they have extra grip values or more power than their stats would suggest. I agree that from what I've seen that Forza's system appears better, I've not played it but when I've watched various videos of races the cars are truly balanced, some are good in the corners some are good on the straights, the winner will usually be decided by the layout of the circuit and the driver behind the wheel.
Hopefully the PP system will get a serious going over on the next gen releases, I'm tired of having to run the same cars at time trials just because they're faster at certain ratings

I've played Forza 1-4 and the PI system is accurate. There is also the sliders for Acceleration, braking, launch, handling and top speed. All of which get changed as you add and remove parts from the car

 

[onebadVr4]

For example, a C7 Vette, if you are careful gets a decent time on Laguna Seca (My favourite track), but the GT-R '07 smokes it by a good 2-3 seconds due to its supreme handling, once again an American car let down by its handling

To be fair, the C-7 is still a base Vette and you are comparing it to a GTR. The C6 ZR-1 for comparison sakes on nurburgring, in real life, has beaten the "SUPREME" handling GTR for many years. They had to put 600 HP in the Nismo to beat it and yes it did destroy the lap times but still. To say that the vette does not handle well is foolish. You're showing your bias and you're showing that you don't know **** about them. If you would have said they didn't handle well 15 years ago, before the C5 z06 came out, I would agree. A lot has changed since then.

 

[JR98]

To be fair, the C-7 is still a base Vette and you are comparing it to a GTR. The C6 ZR-1 for comparison sakes on nurburgring, in real life, has beaten the "SUPREME" handling GTR for many years. They had to put 600 HP in the Nismo to beat it and yes it did destroy the lap times but still. To say that the vette does not handle well is foolish. You're showing your bias and you're showing that you don't know **** about them. If you would have said they didn't handle well 15 years ago, before the C5 z06 came out, I would agree. A lot has changed since then.

I compare those because the C7 has similar PP to an '07 GT-R, while the ZR1 has 60PP more, plus I was on about laguna seca. Besides a C6 ZR1 has 638HP, so it would take 600HP to beat it.

 

[GregOr1971]

Not that I've noticed ,but it might be that new (premium) cars got more advanced physics or data vs. some of their older counterparts. I'm positive that data for all cars got updated with different GT versions, but still , back in late 90's there wasn't as much resources to analyze cars than decade and a half later.


On the later debate about pp and laptimes . PP is no way universal measure ,since it greatly depend on type of car and track. Use 615pp Speed12 on Tsukuba vs 550 pp GTR and GTR will win,despite it got 40-50 pp less . Do the same on a SSXR and GTR won't see Speed12s taillights after 15 seconds.

Real life example would be Mustang GT500 vs BOSS on laguna seca. Despite GT500 got much more horsepower it doesn't do much difference on laguna vs budget BOSS edition.

 

[Polsixe]

Generally, no. Can happen. But sometimes older cars are faster.

As well - PP is not really an objective measure of equilisation.
A lower PP car can sometimes blow a higher PP car out of the water; don't tangle with a Schwimmwagen unless you have lots of PP.

Disagree, PP is very good correlation with performance, for example see @SuzukaStar's car baselining threads.
And for example, see the Brands Hatch TT, how so many different cars in the 520pp bracket have similar times. A Schwimmwagen will not do 1:35s there, unless maybe certain elite drivers?
As the old saying goes, "the exception proves the rule".

 

[Polsixe]

Some cars have hidden values as well, they have extra grip values or more power than their stats would suggest. I agree that from what I've seen that Forza's system appears better, I've not played it but when I've watched various videos of races the cars are truly balanced, some are good in the corners some are good on the straights, the winner will usually be decided by the layout of the circuit and the driver behind the wheel.
Hopefully the PP system will get a serious going over on the next gen releases, I'm tired of having to run the same cars at time trials just because they're faster at certain ratings

See Chaparral 2J !

 

[Dagger311]

It really depends on the driver, and what cars they drive the most. On my favorite track (Laguna Seca), I'm faster with the older Mustang and Camaro, only because I've had a lot more time driving them.

I guess if I practiced with the new ones I might could make similar or slightly better times, but for me, the old ones are currently faster.

 

[JayRS200]

As already said it's not clear cut. Some older models will be faster at a certain PP. sometimes an older model at a lower PP will be faster on certain track that doesn't need the downforce a newer model might have. Even some tuned models are slower than normal models because they have downforce. Better for twisty tracks probably.

I think the PP system is alright. Some cars are much better than others for various reasons even when all tunable things are equal, again, at certain tracks. A lot of the time the GT PP system takes into account how easy the car is to drive or how versatile/adaptable it is. For example at 500PP fully tuned, most of the Evo's and Impreza's are about 10 seconds or more slower at Sierra than... an S2000.

 

[Dave_87]

The OP used the MK3 MR2 as an example. Being as sad as I am, I seem to remember that the early MR2's had a 5 speed gearbox whereas the facelifted ones gained a 6 speed plus some slight revisions to the engine mapping which increased drivability as well as some suspension geometry changes. I pretty sure that GT doesn't take gear ratios into account when judging the PP so maybe that's the difference between those cars? The 6 speed car will, in most cases, always have more power available.

Something else I've noticed but can't necessarily prove, is that older cars have smaller, thinner tyres with tall sidewalls, whereas new cars tend to have wide tyres with low profile tyres, meaning for any given compound the newer car will always have better traction. Maybe the PP is equalled out because the older car is lighter and the newer car more efficient, but GT doesn't take into account the differences in tyre performance as part of the PP, hence why older cars don't tend to perform so well compared to newer cars.