Do the „SUSPENSION GEOMETRY“ settings exist in the real world?

[BlackHGT]

Until I got into the tuning settings of Forza 2023, I thought I knew what could be adjusted on a car.

But the „SUSPENSION GEOMETRY“ settings are completely new to me. I've never come across them in a game before and I've never heard of them in textbooks on car settings.

Now I wanted to know the opinion of the many experts here.

Do these settings really exist?
Or is this an invention by Turn 10?

I was always of the opinion that:

The roll movements are managed by the anti-roll bar supported by the springs/damper. And the lifting and lowering of the front and rear is controlled by the spring tension/frequency and the dampers.

 

[r_outsider]

They do. The trick is most of it is done when you build the car, not something you just adjust at the track. Of course, you also don't have infinite settings for springs, dampers, gears, etc. And there is no freaking toe or camber adjustment on cars with solid axles, either...

These were just the first couple of hits on google, there's libraries of stuff to read on the subject.

Geometry Explained – Suspension Secrets

Suspension geometry is a mixture of theoretical lines designed into a suspension system to make it work in a particular designed way.

suspensionsecrets.co.uk

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/suspension-geometry

 

[BlackHGT]

As I understand it, however, these are all things that cannot be changed. It is determined by the structure of the car.

You can't change that so easily, you would have to redesign and build the whole car, or am I misunderstanding?

At the end of the day, this is an extremely unrealistic approach.

 

[AlexWilmot]

As I understand it, however, these are all things that cannot be changed. It is determined by the structure of the car.

You can't change that so easily, you would have to redesign and build the whole car, or am I misunderstanding?

At the end of the day, this is an extremely unrealistic approach.

The wheel hubs and or suspension arms can be changed/modified to change the geometry without having to make structural changes to the cars body/chassis

 

[BlackHGT]

Ok, but isn't that in a way what you do when you change the suspension? It doesn't sound to me like something that can be adjusted in detail, rather that there are different parts that have different configurations.

I also don't think there is much choice per vehicle.

It's rather exotic, if it was a common setting on the car, wouldn't it be offered in other racing games? But I've never seen that anywhere.

 

[Greycap]

And there is no freaking toe or camber adjustment on cars with solid axles, either...

There can be. Not easily but it's possible, the driveshafts can be fitted with slightly barrel shaped splines to allow for a bit of angle, nothing crazy but around a degree and a half. And of course the axle tubes need to be machined with an angle too.

rear camber for 240's?

has anyone found a rear end to put in or some modification to have negative camber in the rear for 240's?

turbobricks.com

 

[Tornado]

Ok, but isn't that in a way what you do when you change the suspension? It doesn't sound to me like something that can be adjusted in detail, rather that there are different parts that have different configurations.

I also don't think there is much choice per vehicle.

It's rather exotic, if it was a common setting on the car, wouldn't it be offered in other racing games? But I've never seen that anywhere.

It's not a common setting on a car but neither is any of the level of granular adjustment that "racing suspension" systems in these types of games ever are. On my car on the front suspension in real life without changing any parts you can get at the absolute most about 1.2° of negative camber and in doing so you completely sacrifice all ability to adjust caster. If you swap to aftermarket upper control arms with Heim joints you have basically unlimited amount of caster and camber adjustment at your disposal. On my car there were also substantial changes made to the suspension geometry midway through its life on the market that were done to increase its stability (including lowering the amount of suspension dive there was on braking and acceleration to virtually nothing) at the expense of lowering its low speed maneuverability; with no changes made to the design of the mounting points themselves on the chassis. Presenting it as a "setting" that is being changed is misleading (though some such adjustments can be done on multilink suspension systems if the links in question are also Heim joints), but there's nothing that the Suspension Geometry page is claiming to change that couldn't necessarily be done on any given car if you were willing to manufacture replacement suspension components to give the desired effect for each specific "adjustment."

 

[SDSmurf]

From @r_outsider link...

There a couple of good techniques to adjust the roll centre position of your front and rear axles.
1. Changing ride height'
...
The other option is to alter the mounting points of your suspension arms to alter the angles of them where they mount to the hub or chassis. With some designs this can be done easily with the use of spacers. On other designs it could require upright or subframe modifications.

Doesn't seem to be an "extremely unrealistic approach."?

 

[BlackHGT]

It is clear that a racing or sports suspension offers more settings than a stock suspension. It is also clear that you can adjust camber and toe or even caster.
But this setting is something completely different. It comes on top of the normal suspension settings.

Although I always thought I was familiar with the suspension settings. It seems I don't know enough about it. I still have a lot to learn.

 

[r_outsider]

There can be. Not easily but it's possible, the driveshafts can be fitted with slightly barrel shaped splines to allow for a bit of angle, nothing crazy but around a degree and a half. And of course the axle tubes need to be machined with an angle too.

rear camber for 240's?

has anyone found a rear end to put in or some modification to have negative camber in the rear for 240's?

turbobricks.com

True, just not very common. To be honest most rear axles end up slightly tweaked just in the course of day-to-day use and have to be accounted for in alignment, believe it or not. Forza is basically just doing an IRS swap into everything, which is certainly not an uncommon mod. But will require some geometry work.

 

[Morbid65]

Older V8 Supercars could change rear roll center during pit stops by sticking a speed handle socket in through a hole one of the rear windows. I tried to find an example on YouTube but couldn't really find one, although this video covers roll center briefly starting at 3:06 and gives a little graphic thing for it.

 

[BlackHGT]

I wonder, if there are such setup possibilities, why do they appear in so few racing games? because they are rather exotic or is it difficult to simulate?

or have I just always overlooked them?

In any case, I think it's an exciting topic.

 

[r_outsider]

I wonder, if there are such setup possibilities, why do they appear in so few racing games? because they are rather exotic or is it difficult to simulate?

or have I just always overlooked them?

In any case, I think it's an exciting topic.

It IS an exciting topic! Race cars are awesome!

 

[Judistrikex]

They do. The trick is most of it is done when you build the car, not something you just adjust at the track. Of course, you also don't have infinite settings for springs, dampers, gears, etc. And there is no freaking toe or camber adjustment on cars with solid axles, either...

These were just the first couple of hits on google, there's libraries of stuff to read on the subject.

Geometry Explained – Suspension Secrets

Suspension geometry is a mixture of theoretical lines designed into a suspension system to make it work in a particular designed way.

suspensionsecrets.co.uk

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/suspension-geometry

The library is much larger than the results presented here. In any case, you should understand that the real geometry is somewhat more complicated than it seems. I was once in college talking to https://edubirdie.com/geometry-help when I got stuck on one of the assignments and realized that is not only about angles and lines, but also about how all these curves can affect on the physics of objects.

Anyway, it doesn't look like a miracle that will turn your car into a racing machine. In games, sure, everything is cooler and seems like it's from the realm of fantasy. Though it's just one aspect of tuning. As for google, I think you can find anything you want there, even if it's not actually true. I mean, if you want to find out, for example, how to install a gasoline engine in a Tesla, there will definitely be at least one result, lol.