do you think it was fair

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dirtman1232

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dirtman1232
it wasn't fair to have controllers compete against steering wheel's they have more control getting in the corners and get out of them not to say anything about the shifting , gas ,and brake. the GT Academy wasn't even close to being fair to everyone. They should have had two different classes one for controllers and one for steering wheel's. But I bet they don't try to right this wrong.... Yours truly the one the only the dirtman1232
 
A fast player will beat a slow player regardless of the control method.

I've run a couple of thousand competitive races now (and our racers have done over 1,000,000 race-regulated miles) and I can assure you that there is no definite Wheel>Pad or Pad>Wheel answer.

Optimum setups vary according to the input method but that's the only difference. A fast pad player will smoke a lot of wheel users and vice versa.

Why segregate them? Beat them.
 
dirtman1232
it wasn't fair to have controllers compete against steering wheel's they have more control getting in the corners and get out of them not to say anything about the shifting , gas ,and brake. the GT Academy wasn't even close to being fair to everyone. They should have had two different classes one for controllers and one for steering wheel's. But I bet they don't try to right this wrong.... Yours truly the one the only the dirtman1232
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And what's going to happen when the controller users get into the final? There everybody is using a DFGT. So they'd end up at a disadvantage anyway.
 
dirtman1232
it wasn't fair to have controllers compete against steering wheel's they have more control getting in the corners and get out of them not to say anything about the shifting , gas ,and brake. the GT Academy wasn't even close to being fair to everyone. They should have had two different classes one for controllers and one for steering wheel's. But I bet they don't try to right this wrong.... Yours truly the one the only the dirtman1232
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They didnt have an income bracket for the challenge.
 
I think your missing the point of the GT academy. They are looking for a winner that will win a place on a real racing team driving a real car. It's not like they are going to mod the winners car so he/she can race it with a controller. ;)
 
It is what it is. If you feel it requires a wheel to post the best times, then do what it takes to get a wheel. The winner will be committed to the whole process, and is going to practice, practice, practice. Whatever it costs for a wheel is minimal compared to the time spent practicing.

I compete internationally, racing 1:32 cars that turn laps in the 10 second range (depending on the track). I have a $120 dollar controller, and I compete against guys using 500-1,000 dollar controllers that make a difference of 0.1-0.2 seconds per lap. Over 6 hours, that adds up, and I either have to beat that with skill, or spend the money on the controller. There's no point fussing about it, there's nothing unfair about it, it just is.
 
DaveS1138
I think your missing the point of the GT academy. They are looking for a winner that will win a place on a real racing team driving a real car. It's not like they are going to mod the winners car so he/she can race it with a controller. ;)
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That ^^.

Close thread.
 
DaveS1138
I think your missing the point of the GT academy. They are looking for a winner that will win a place on a real racing team driving a real car. It's not like they are going to mod the winners car so he/she can race it with a controller. ;)
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why not?, it works for will smith.. :x
 
I don't think "fair" has anything to do with it.

Do the wheel and pedals give you an advantage over the hand controller?

The results seem to indicate that they do.

IMO this is the case.

However the competition is open to all and if you want to use either one, the choice is up to you.

Likewise if you make it to the finals you will have to use a wheel and pedals, so the contest is clearly pointed in that direction.

I will say that if PD was interested in a level playing field, then the two methods would need to be seperated.

But I don't think thats their objective here.
 
ElSecundo
I compete internationally, racing 1:32 cars that turn laps in the 10 second range (depending on the track). I have a $120 dollar controller, and I compete against guys using 500-1,000 dollar controllers that make a difference of 0.1-0.2 seconds per lap. Over 6 hours, that adds up
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Seriously you compete in 2,000 lap races?
 
TenEightyOne
A fast player will beat a slow player regardless of the control method.

I've run a couple of thousand competitive races now (and our racers have done over 1,000,000 race-regulated miles) and I can assure you that there is no definite Wheel>Pad or Pad>Wheel answer.

Optimum setups vary according to the input method but that's the only difference. A fast pad player will smoke a lot of wheel users and vice versa.

Why segregate them? Beat them.
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Would be a novel explanation if statistics and common sense didn't apply. Wheel users > DS users.
 
I'm probably opening myself up to abuse here but I am not as clear on the wheel vs controller argument. While the wheel may seem to be the more accurate representation of the vehicle, frankly, there are so many things that can not be represented in a simulation that I would wonder how many degrees of separation you need to be before it becomes useless as a predictor of real world ability. Both the wheel and the controller allow for reasonable steering precision so assessments pertaining to the racing line are probably fairly valid which is important in the real world and these are likely close to equal between the two although it can certainly be argued that the manner in which the car gets on path is completely different.

However car control is a mixture of a lot of different skill sets including hand eye coordination (again valid for both, maybe more so for the wheel) but also yaw sensitivity. Since a living room simulator can not replicate felt vehicle yaw (through the inner ear), or the rate at which yaw increases or decreases at the onset of oversteer, you are relying solely on vision. This is not even close to realistic and therefore is limited in its value for a measure of driver real world performance. Measurements done by quite a few motorsports/F1 research medical centers frequently show the better drivers as having very low yaw threshold sensitivity (high sensitivity to yaw). These tests are done in dark rooms with electrically controlled chairs that rotate at different rates.

Other race craft items, such as an understanding of reference points, repeatability, concentration, etc are pretty much a wash between the two as far as I'm concerned. Controllers allow for quicker large steering corrections while trading a little bit of precision in both throttle and steering application. Steering feedback on the wheel is ridiculous at best so I can't see anyone arguing anything about feel (especially with the tiny rim versus cars with real rim sizes). Maybe mine's set up wrong.

Of the two I greatly prefer the controller, as I completely suck with the DFGT. I've been playing GT since PS1 and didn't like the wheel on GT4 and don't like it now in GT5 (oddly enough I can't play any of the F1 games without the wheel). I think that the fundamentals of what it takes to go fast in a racecar (proper lines, proper way of breaking down a track, concentration etc) are the same either way and I'd expect someone who is competent in either to have as much chance of being ok their first time in a real car.

My 0.02.

Steve
 
See Im the opposite to you I can play GT5 with a DFGT really well and I can't use the DFGT with the F1 for the life of me lol! :P

I think those who complain about the difference between wheel and controller just go on about it because they aren't the fastest of drivers and can't justify the gap between them and the fastest GT people (who incidentally drive with a wheel) Not trying to call anyone here btw, just that when I was still competent with a controller (before I lost controller abilities thanks to my wheel) I was just as quick on either ...

Something I have always stuck by is how ridiculous the force feed back is ... I do not beleive at all that it is realistic ... My car in real life doesn't give anywhere near as much feedback as what it does in GT5 (So I'm clearly right that the FFB is ridiculous!)
 
Hig-GT
I think those who complain about the difference between wheel and controller just go on about it because they aren't the fastest of drivers and can't justify the gap between them and the fastest GT people (who incidentally drive with a wheel)
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So you are chalking it up to coincidence that all the fastest racers use a wheel?

Wow.
 
Mopatop
Seriously you compete in 2,000 lap races?
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Yeah, 1:32 scale slot cars can cover some ground. I've done much longer races than that, though -- two 24-hour events last year, and they were a LOT of laps. The cars are about 5-6 inches long, and the tracks I've raced on range from about 50 feet up to 450+ feet. The controllers can make a monumental difference...
 
I could sort of see your argument as controller users can't do less brakes into corners or less gas in the rain or whatever the case may be. Still, I think GT5 is a simulator and wheels naturally go along with that. I don't think anyone on iRacing is using a PS3 controller.

Not disparaging controllers--I myself am poor and am using a PS2 wheel for the game, and completely understand if someone doesn't want to fork out a bunch of money on a G27. But if you really wanted one you could probably get a lower-end wheel on ebay or the like for 50 bucks or something (around the price of the game).
 
I find drifting is easier using a DS3 than with the wheel. Though with a good grip car the wheel is definitely an advantage. So it comes to how good of a handling car you are driving and the track involve. If the car is faster drifting through corners then a wheel user doesn't have an advantage imo. Try drifting an X1:)

But to give input to your topic... no it wasn't fair that wheel users are matched against DS3 users. But who said life is fair...
 
ElSecundo
Yeah, 1:32 scale slot cars can cover some ground. I've done much longer races than that, though -- two 24-hour events last year, and they were a LOT of laps. The cars are about 5-6 inches long, and the tracks I've raced on range from about 50 feet up to 450+ feet. The controllers can make a monumental difference...
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Yeah I can imagine, I fly model helicopters and getting a decent TX was a godsend!
 
The real issue between the DS3 and the wheel has nothing to do with steering. It has to do with acceleration and braking. I myself have better control over the gas with the x button vs the R2 button. However neither of those can compare to a pedal.Take the x button for an example.It travels about an 1/8 of an inch VS a pedal which travels 3-5 inches. The linear curve of the gas is much easier to control over "inches" VS 1/8 of an inch. People making better times with a wheel has nothing to do with the wheel and everything to do with the pedals.Just the pedals..........
 
Hig-GT
See Im the opposite to you I can play GT5 with a DFGT really well and I can't use the DFGT with the F1 for the life of me lol! :P

I think those who complain about the difference between wheel and controller just go on about it because they aren't the fastest of drivers and can't justify the gap between them and the fastest GT people (who incidentally drive with a wheel) Not trying to call anyone here btw, just that when I was still competent with a controller (before I lost controller abilities thanks to my wheel) I was just as quick on either ...

Something I have always stuck by is how ridiculous the force feed back is ... I do not beleive at all that it is realistic ... My car in real life doesn't give anywhere near as much feedback as what it does in GT5 (So I'm clearly right that the FFB is ridiculous!)
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I hear you. My arms get all sore cause of the amount of force feedback. I already lowered it down. But in real life... I can't compare the forced feedback on my G27 and on my real life car. I don't do 120mph on the turn. Maybe 10 making a left/right turn with signal on and 35mph on a tight bend:)

Real life racing imo has more intense force feedback than my G27. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsNW8TX2vGs
 
Leadpaint
The real issue between the DS3 and the wheel has nothing to do with steering. It has to do with acceleration and braking. I myself have better control over the gas with the x button vs the R2 button. However neither of those can compare to a pedal.Take the x button for an example.It travels about an 1/8 of an inch VS a pedal which travels 3-5 inches. The linear curve of the gas is much easier to control over "inches" VS 1/8 of an inch. People making better times with a wheel has nothing to do with the wheel and everything to do with the pedals.Just the pedals..........
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Well almost all of the time my gas pedal is peg all the way down and when I brake same thing...brake hard and push hard. Same with the controller, push on and off. I'm an aggressive driver and I scrape walls and do illegal shortcuts.
 
Leadpaint
The real issue between the DS3 and the wheel has nothing to do with steering. It has to do with acceleration and braking. I myself have better control over the gas with the x button vs the R2 button. However neither of those can compare to a pedal.Take the x button for an example.It travels about an 1/8 of an inch VS a pedal which travels 3-5 inches. The linear curve of the gas is much easier to control over "inches" VS 1/8 of an inch. People making better times with a wheel has nothing to do with the wheel and everything to do with the pedals.Just the pedals..........
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^^ This

Its all about sensitivity. There us no way I can control my controllers sticks with the same precision that I can with my wheel/pedals.

As a 'reductum ad absurdum' try immagining controlling the game with an attari controller.

- "The Ron needs no traction control besides his right thumb" - JC
 
RDB
I hear you. My arms get all sore cause of the amount of force feedback. I already lowered it down. But in real life... I can't compare the forced feedback on my G27 and on my real life car. I don't do 120mph on the turn. Maybe 10 making a left/right turn with signal on and 35mph on a tight bend:)
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Your real car probably has power steering. There is a power steering option but I haven't tried it yet.
 
F18
So you are chalking it up to coincidence that all the fastest racers use a wheel?

Wow.
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I'd say that its more that the guys who drop the money on a wheel take the game a little more serious then someone who doesn't.
 
BWSanford
I'd say that its more that the guys who drop the money on a wheel take the game a little more serious then someone who doesn't.
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I've been playing racing games since they were invented (anyone remember Indy? The original NFS?). Im a professionally trained driver (my father wrote the book for freighliner) and I take it VERY seriously. But with three kids, a wife and a job, where do I get the hours? The money for the wheel? I gotta borrow my sons ps2 just to play ("im getting gt5 for christman, huh dad." "Good guess son.") Spending the hundreds, if not thousands of hours on gt4, my thumbs are pretty sensative by now.

Breath, ok.

Point: maybe "serious" isn't the right word, how about: those players who have nothing better to spend the money on?
 

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