Do you think perhaps Kaz's interest in GT as a game is actually waning? (TITLE EDITED

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Devedander

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EDIT: I should note I didn't phrase the title well, what I meant really was do you think his interest in the video game portion of GT is waning in comparison to his other interests like racing and making the GT name a franchise. I didn't mean it particuarly directed at GT5 like he is specifically ditching GT5. My mistake.

I keep looking at GT5 and while I know many want to look only at it's positives over it's negatives I think we must agree that the game seems unfinished and that is surprising after so long...

And I was thinking abut why this might have happened - there is the obvious answer "it's hard and it takes a lot of time!" but really is that it? It doens't feel that way to me... it feels to me like a long term project that the team (or at least the leader) has started to lose interest in but is still bound to complete.

Looking back in my own past I can see times when this happened, perhaps it was a porject at work or perhaps it was just a hobbie thing with some friends... something interseting and challenging came up and we got started and our first result was very impmressive! So we kept at it, easy to dedicate time and effort and crank out an improved version with more work but over time interest started to go elsewhere, progress stagnated and at work it was status checks on where we were with this project which required reasons like how hard it was and how we were waiting on some third part or some such other excuse to make the delay seem reasonable when really it had just become an uninteresting project that got back burnered. Finally some boss high enough up would ask sternly why this wasn't done yet and the excusese and reasons were done with, we would plod through the steps to get the project done but when it was it obviously wasn't the work of someone truly interested in it and it fell short in every area that it couldn't without rendering it a failure... no more time than was necessary had been applied in order to provide a "product" and while it did what it needed to, it's not something anyone would have been proud of.

Or with the hobbies and friends that thing sititng in the garage that we put so many hours into, got a first model out and got 50% done on the refined version quickly but now it had been months or years and we weren't even 75% done with teh second version... everyone still put in some time on it out of respect to the group and the ideal we had started with but honestly everyone was looking for excuses to do something else that was more interesting and it showed.

We have seen a lot of Kaz going arund doing things, racing, starting GT academy, making marketing/advertising deals with companies... basically it looks a lot like Kaz is able to realize a lot of his dreams now with GT as the foundation. But maybe that's spreading him thin and it's showing in GT5? Like the guy who makes the inventive new startup company, it goes big and he gets 100 million in an IPO then suddenly he isn't at the office anymore spending late nights working furiously on his labor of love... his labor of love has now enabled him to get a yacht he always wanted, travel to exotic places and drink and dine with upscale company... and his original project gets enough attention to keep it running but is the red headed stepchild of his life now.

Maybe Kaz's interests are starting to go elsewhere... he is turning the GT name into a franchise instead of a game title and in the process the GT game is perhaps becoming his ball and chain... the thing he has to do but not the thing he wants to focus on anymore.

It seems to me all the issues with GT5 we see fit well with a leader who has lost interest and moved on to other more interesting things giving this project only the minimal attention his team needs from him.

GT5 still does well what GT has always done well at the core which is the driving experience and physics engine, but that's hardly something that needs much attention from Kaz... everywhere else that things seem rough and unfinished reminds me of that project in my garage that was going to take all summer to do but would be awesome and is now 3 years in the making and barely turns on let alone works....

I don't know, what do you think?

EDIT if that wasn't long winded enough for you I clarified a bit more here what I am talking about https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138666&page=3#post4262224
 
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I think the problem is that Kaz has too much interest in GT5 and probably wouldn't ever have finished it had it not been for someone stepping in.
 
Devedander
I keep looking at GT5 and while I know many want to look only at it's positives over it's negatives I think we must agree that the game seems unfinished and that is surprising after so long...

And I was thinking abut why this might have happened - there is the obvious answer "it's hard and it takes a lot of time!" but really is that it? It doens't feel that way to me... it feels to me like a long term project that the team (or at least the leader) has started to lose interest in but is still bound to complete.

Looking back in my own past I can see times when this happened, perhaps it was a porject at work or perhaps it was just a hobbie thing with some friends... something interseting and challenging came up and we got started and our first result was very impmressive! So we kept at it, easy to dedicate time and effort and crank out an improved version with more work but over time interest started to go elsewhere, progress stagnated and at work it was status checks on where we were with this project which required reasons like how hard it was and how we were waiting on some third part or some such other excuse to make the delay seem reasonable when really it had just become an uninteresting project that got back burnered. Finally some boss high enough up would ask sternly why this wasn't done yet and the excusese and reasons were done with, we would plod through the steps to get the project done but when it was it obviously wasn't the work of someone truly interested in it and it fell short in every area that it couldn't without rendering it a failure... no more time than was necessary had been applied in order to provide a "product" and while it did what it needed to, it's not something anyone would have been proud of.

Or with the hobbies and friends that thing sititng in the garage that we put so many hours into, got a first model out and got 50% done on the refined version quickly but now it had been months or years and we weren't even 75% done with teh second version... everyone still put in some time on it out of respect to the group and the ideal we had started with but honestly everyone was looking for excuses to do something else that was more interesting and it showed.

We have seen a lot of Kaz going arund doing things, racing, starting GT academy, making marketing/advertising deals with companies... basically it looks a lot like Kaz is able to realize a lot of his dreams now with GT as the foundation. But maybe that's spreading him thin and it's showing in GT5?

Maybe Kaz's interests are starting to go elsewhere... he is turning the GT name into a franchise instead of a game title and in the process the GT game is perhaps becoming his ball and chain... the thing he has to do but not the thing he wants to focus on anymore.

It seems to me all the issues with GT5 we see fit well with a leader who has lost interest and moved on to other more interesting things giving this project only the minimal attention his team needs from him.

GT5 still does well what GT has always done well at the core which is the driving experience and physics engine, but that's hardly something that needs much attention from Kaz... everywhere else that things seem rough and unfinished reminds me of that project in my garage that was going to take all summer to do but would be awesome and is now 3 years in the making and barely turns on let alone works....

I don't know, what do you think?
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I honestly think that the issues with this game (of which I think are minimal) are due to being spread thin by Sony. GTPSP and GT5:P made it harder I am sure to focus on the final goal when Sony kept throwing side projects at a notably small PD Staff. I think he still loves GT and his sights are set even higher for the next one and if they truly didn't care anymore then we wouldn't see updates for GT5, along with him tweeting and taking advice on things that should be changed.
 
personally i see a trend here
GT1 on the PS1 - was good
GT2 - on the PS1 - was even better
GT3 on the PS2 - was good
GT4 - on the ps 2 was even better
GT5 - on the PS3 - is good
GT6 - on the PS3 - will be even better

see a pattern?
 
For GT5, maybe. I mean, he was already thinking GT6 when GT5 was still delivering. I'm expecting more in GT6, especially if it's going to be on PS4, which it's likely since GT5's lifespan can be expanded with downloadable content. Not necessarily for money, I mean I don't think the mechanical damage update would require us to pay since it was announced to be part of the game in the first place.

Add more tracks and add more events, GT5 would flourish just a bit more so that we can stand waiting for GT6.

Fortress_Anfiel
No.
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You have no idea how hard I laughed at that.
 
Devedander
Thank you for that insiteful and educated response!
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It's the simplest answer though. All you have to do is look at his Twitter account to tell that his interest isn't waning. In fact it seems to be as intense as ever as he wants to iron out the issues players have with the game.
 
SolidSnakex
It's the simplest answer though. All you have to do is look at his Twitter account to tell that his interest isn't waning. In fact it seems to be as intense as ever as he wants to iron out the issues players have with the game.
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What gives you the idea that Kaz is the one actually doing the twittering? Twitter accounts are usually created and maintained by PR & Marketing Personnel.
 
Rocker
What gives you the idea that Kaz is the one actually doing the twittering? Twitter accounts are usually created and maintained by PR & Marketing Personnel.
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How many Twitter accounts by gaming people do you know that are maintained by PR or Marketing people? I can think of many accounts that are held by people in the industry but I can't think of any that fall into the category that you described. Videogame employees don't operate like Hollywood, which is what you're talking about. It's very clear that it's his account if you've been reading it for awhile.
 
Devedander
I don't know, what do you think?
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I hope not, the fact that there are 2 patches coming out this month (hoping that PD doesn't start to delay even patches :D) is a great example of how much kaz is loving his latest GT....

BTW even if his interest is waning I think he will be forced to go back to work hard by sony, the reviews of the game are absolutely not enthusiastic (for now it's the worst metacritic score ever for a GT) and I don't think it will be a blockbuster or a killer application as the last GTs, ok it is selling and will sell a lot but it will not outsell the fourth GT imho....

I have high hopes for patches and DLCs from kaz:tup:
 
The game has so many short comings because this bloke arrogantly ignores other games.

Every other major racing title has made leaps and bounds in the departments of UI, Playability, Fun, Options and Online. To me, it seriously seems like he still believes all games are like the PSone days and all of the above mentioned are not important (because back then they weren't).

Also, adding weather and day/night means nothing, I remember PSone games with that so it is by no means something "new"
 
Well he has said he would not mind trying his hand at making other types of games.

But on the other hand he is already talking about gt6, which is in development.

Maybe GT6 will be his last GT, who knows until we get there 5, 10 years down the road. He has been doing this for what the last 15 20 years? That is longer than most marriages last. :P

Even if he did leave would it be the end of GT? I doubt it and it is not like you could not find someone to step in and take the title over, maybe even for the better. He is a brilliant guy and loves cars, and he had a vision and he has yet to achieve his ultimate vision, but he does tend to dwell too much on one thing.

I mean we got some great premium cars but i cant help but think we could have gotten much more if he had stuck to his guns about no damage and just focused on getting cars done. The driving is great but after 6 years imo we should have more than the 200 some odd premium cars or at the very least had HD textures to wrap the older non premium cars in.

I think when he caved on the damage he got so focused on making it look real other parts of the game suffered to a degree. I least cannot think that anything else could have taken so much time and resources, nor do i think it took 6 years to model 200 cars.

In fact full damage is taking so much work and effort it was not even included in the full game yet because they are still working on it.

Where are all our events? Hows come many events only have one race? Why did not many cars get at the very lest their textures reworked?

Kaz has one track mind obsessively so, i think that hurt this game to a degree. Do not get me wrong though I love this game i been playing it obsessively, even with its warts.
 
If anything, playing this game makes me think Kaz is even more in love with the series then ever before. That is why it kept getting delayed, cos he was trying to make it perfect like we all want but at some point it had to come out. I think there has been so much love put into GT5.
 
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2 things that are possible.

1. Kaz is focusing on other things. I mean, look. He raced in the VLN during development.

2. He's in his mid-life crisis. :lol:
 
TheIshter
For GT5, maybe. I mean, he was already thinking GT6 when GT5 was still delivering. I'm expecting more in GT6, especially if it's going to be on PS4, which it's likely since GT5's lifespan can be expanded with downloadable content. Not necessarily for money, I mean I don't think the mechanical damage update would require us to pay since it was announced to be part of the game in the first place. .
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I agree, if they turn GT5 into a platform, this game could last for years and years.

They could do deals with WRC and Nascar to bring special one off events out as they happen in the realworld. There is so much they could do with GT5 if they use the game as a platform like they have done with Rockband and Singstar etc
 
this is a long read so have read carefully,and sorry for the grammar:

It depends of how you look the progression of events in the GT5 development,first GTHD(GT4 HD),then going to GT5 prologue and then getting into GT full,of course he is making his life aspirations come true(well who doesn't with all that money)but then he doesn't have to take full time on development so what he does is put in charge somebody to make the game,which could be a terrible decision,in GT4's development he took more part,or at least it seems like but you right in what you are saying devedander.

What shows this is the level of attention of the things that he have been directly involved(like nurburgring 24 hours,time changes and weather)also in the cars that he model initially for prologue and the introduction of proper F1 teams and some of the rally stages,the thing is that maybe he wanted to do so much that he did a bit of all but with no time,to be honest I don't think that GT5 took all that time to be develop,they had to port over GT4 for the PSP and it could sound easy but is really a block in the way because all engine and the whole "GT4" content had to be refurbish,it might not seems like it but it went some serious work over that game(ie the physics which are not from this gen but they equal the complexity of the ones shown on the PS2).

GT5 looks incomplete because some of the work over it had to be outsourced,in games like FM3 they had to do this to increase content,the time that they take to make a premium vehicle is insane(3 months going by both scanning the car,the modelling it and remodelling it for the final car),yamauchi overestimate what he could do,he wanted to create "the best racing game" but as much as we wanted he didn't have the personnel to do it and the time.

I will do an aside point to this because is really 5 years in development?,I don't think so because GTPSP had to be ported to the PSP,the PS3 didn't come out until 2006 and if I'm good at maths that is 4 years not five ,so PD didn't had a base platform to work with,introduction of new hardware make them think of how to make the game,once limitations are set they can freely develop the game knowing memory limitations and processing power,I know that they move to GTHD to see how the software with interact with the hardware at the time,then they discover that more things could be done and they release they "work in progress" know as GT5 prologue,that is 2008 so that makes two years in development by 2008,then they move to GTPSP which put in halt the whole GT5 developing process until June of that year,then they retake GT5 in 2009.

I'm guessing that Sony wanted to have at least one game(or maybe two)to this generation of consoles to make the PS3 sale more and be more profitable for the company,so they needed to have a GT game for 2009,Kazunori did his job and in 2009 TGS he show R246,more premiums and damage, something that they might be developing less than 10 moths,they show it and the public show a good response to it,then the first announced GT5 for march next year,but there is a problem,the same problem that we are facing now,I believe that their original Idea was to bring GT5 as it is today GT4 HD+GT5 prologue,something that is making a bad reception of the game,We can see tracks like Rome,TG,Monza,Madrid,Toscana done during the last year with the plus of 130 premium cars,something that in the time line could take about 10 moths so we are in E3 2010,then there goes the creation of both SSR7 and SSR5,with time changes and weather changes, something to increase the game in some respects,then we see the addition of the track editor and that's about it,what we got today which is 30%GT5+100% GT4 HD,and that is the thing more content doesn't make a game better but adding more content makes a game bigger.

In the case of GT5 all went wrong,they should release GTHD as GT5 in 2007,if the had do that they give to Sony a selling game for their console and then go freely to develop GT5 as they wanted to be(today's 30% GT5),this could make GT6 to be in around 2011 to 2012 but it will be the 1000 Premiums cars with 100 tracks and all features that PD and everyone wanted,putting an aside the pressure from the public for the game to be released.

I know such games like Forza 3 and NFS shift which follow a similar developing cycle but for them there is no in mid development port over to other consoles and of they uses the same technique as GT5 does,around 40% of shift is based on a tweaked engine from NFS Pro-Street and around 75% of FM3 is based on FM2 assets,including to that the addition of only three tracks to the series,which makes me mention that FM3 is as GT5 a flawed game,why? because they took 2.5 years to crate cockpits,two tracks and around 120 cars which don't have the quality of GT prologue models,if you pay attention they did Fujimi Kaido back in Xbox original and ported the half of it to the 360,and Monserrat circuit,Rally di positano are the only addition in the track selection with Le mans and Cataluña,making monserrat and Ralli di positano like 3 circuits out of a single one,in shift there is no complex engine so is all down to the graphical department to make the game good,and in fact they did but as predicted it had limited content compared to its rivals.

For me is all down to what do you enjoy the most,FM3 have a white board to draw but I'm not artist so I just simply don't care,and shift is too "arcade" for me so I just stick with GT5,is the same case with everyone,it depends the most out of what do you want.Also we are starting to feel how different situation start to pop up,like the announcement of shift 2 which will take the slipstream that GT5 leaves,but because of this it will not make it as good as it should be,and I'm starting to believe that the same will happen with turn 10 which have to work on kinetic,and because of this FM4 will take a long time and its unknown of it will be as good as a potential "real GT5 a.k.a. GT6" in the next couple of years.

What you can read in the tweets of KY suggest what I just wrote,GT6 will be develop to PS3 that's for sure and signal of this is the "we have starting to make GT6" which show the real continuation of GT5 or at this point Gran Turismo as a Game.

So KY losing attention of GT5 because of his success,maybe,but Gran Turismo getting away from its roots is a nonsense.
 
Devedander
I keep looking at GT5 and while I know many want to look only at it's positives over it's negatives I think we must agree that the game seems unfinished and that is surprising after so long...
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I don't agree. I know the critics like to say the fans are in denial but I genuinely got everything I expected and wanted out of GT5. Kaz may have let a few things drop through the net this time around but they're mostly trivial in my opinion and it just makes me all the more excited for GT6 when he'll have time to refine the work he's done here.

As I said before I think part of it depends on whether you're a car-lover or a gamer, and as I'm a total freak for car design I'd have been happy if he'd just released a Photo Travel game without any racing in it. I'm sure not many people would feel the same, but for me at least it turns GT5 into something amazing.
 
I don't think he has lost interest in it. In fact I think he absolutely loves it but loves certain aspects of it so much that he is a little blinkered and so fails to allocate priorities correctly.

Kaz obviously thinks the physics and the modelling are paramount. Hence a brilliant physics model and a large number of, to be blunt, over modelled cars. At the expense of a decent game to host them in.

The art of computer graphics is knowing how much detail is actually important. The very best modellers are able to give the impression of a massive polygon count, but use a lot less than someone less talented.

I really like driving from the cockpit, but honestly I don't need it to be factually accurate to the nth degree, just give the impression of being somewhat accurate. I really, however, care about what is happening on the road. So I would swap 100,000 polygon models for a decent AI any day of the week.

I would also swap 100,000 polygon models for 100 more events, but that's just me.

What would probably have been best would have been a compromise between the overly detailed modelling and a thrown together at the last minute game.

It seems clear to me that PD came under pressure probably from various sources to finally get the game out and that as a result the surrounding game was quickly thrown together.

Rather than the priority being...
1) physics
2) modelling
3) game

it should have been
1) physics
2) game
3) modelling

Extra models can easily be added later, but gameplay is much harder to modify after release and I think is the critical factor for longevity and success.
 
Batting average isn't looking too good, Dev. :D

But seriously, I agree with the naysayers. It looks obvious to me - note: this is personal opinion, but it is based on evidence - that the reason that GT5 is so weird is because they couldn't spend the time to perfect these really different gameplay elements they had never tried before, and then struggled to incorporate in GT5. The two most notable are the leveling system and online.

As for the level system... whatever the heck they were thinking of when they built in this odd beast, they messed it up, and very few like it. Note my sig. ;) Maybe it has to do with stuff they didn't get finished because SONY put their feet down for a launch before Black Friday. IF something in DLC makes it make sense, that's great and all, but we have no clue until Kaz makes some sort of definitive statement about it.

Online is clearly unfinished. Kaz spoke so much about it, it's pretty obvious that a lot is intended for it. He wanted to make it into a playground that's as big as any single player deal in GT4. But SONY wasn't ready with a sufficient server system. Just recall how we were told to unplug our network cables when the game first launched because countless games were performing roughly from choked networking. The A-Spec game was shortsheeted to push us into playing B-Spec and Online. Unfortunately, the online backbone is still coming along, so even things like the leaderboards in Prologue and the TT demo were left off. The online events are pretty skimpy right now because the system just can't handle it. All those elements we were looking forward to, the League Building tools, Event Building tools, the extensive racing events, all that has to wait for the online system to catch up with the stuff Kaz wants to do.

But as others have said, this has nothing to do with the passion Kaz has for his baby. Not in my opinion, anyhow. ;)
 
The dude is a project manager, plain and simple. As a project manager his role is to determine the needed resources, work the requirements and avoid requirements creep, baseline a schedule and re-prioritize work to stay on schedule, and stay on budget. He's not a programmer, and any project manager that gets too far into the details and doesn't let his technical team work is a failed project manager.

His biggest mistake was requirements creep. Lots of features were added in the process, and each time you add a new requirement other work gets affected. That may be schedule or cost impacts, or conflicts with existing game design or in-work/completed code. Now if Sony pushes new requirements on the PD team, it is up to him to make Sony aware of the cost and schedule impacts and not simply bend to pressure.
 
mr_serious
I don't think he has lost interest in it. In fact I think he absolutely loves it but loves certain aspects of it so much that he is a little blinkered and so fails to allocate priorities correctly.

Kaz obviously thinks the physics and the modelling are paramount. Hence a brilliant physics model and a large number of, to be blunt, over modelled cars. At the expense of a decent game to host them in.

The art of computer graphics is knowing how much detail is actually important. The very best modellers are able to give the impression of a massive polygon count, but use a lot less than someone less talented.

I really like driving from the cockpit, but honestly I don't need it to be factually accurate to the nth degree, just give the impression of being somewhat accurate. I really, however, care about what is happening on the road. So I would swap 100,000 polygon models for a decent AI any day of the week.

I would also swap 100,000 polygon models for 100 more events, but that's just me.

What would probably have been best would have been a compromise between the overly detailed modelling and a thrown together at the last minute game.

It seems clear to me that PD came under pressure probably from various sources to finally get the game out and that as a result the surrounding game was quickly thrown together.

Rather than the priority being...
1) physics
2) modelling
3) game

it should have been
1) physics
2) game
3) modelling

Extra models can easily be added later, but gameplay is much harder to modify after release and I think is the critical factor for longevity and success.
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this is exactly how i feel about this as well.. and tenacious is probably right too; they tried putting in so much stuff that they've never done before and just ended up implementing them in very strange ways
 
I just think that there is a growing separation between what Kazunori/PD wants and what Sony wants.

Throughout the delays, all we heard was that Kazunori didn't want to release it until it was perfect or that there was final work to be done on the car models or the weather effects or the track designs. It's as though he didn't have a clue what was going on with the menu designs, the challenge/race modes, the AI model etc. because they are all rubbish. I find it hard to believe that Kazunori (being the perfectionist that he is) could sign off on these features as "perfect".

So I think Kazunori was focused on what most of us (well, me anyway) were hoping to get from GT5, that being the accurate physics model, beautiful cars and faithfully modelled tracks. That aspect of the game, I have to say, is brilliant.

The rest (3D, 1000+ cars, TG test track, damage etc.) seems like Sony marketing content and detracts from what should be the main focus of the game, the driving
 
PirateThom
I think the problem is that Kaz has too much interest in GT5 and probably wouldn't ever have finished it had it not been for someone stepping in.
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This happens to me at school (architecture student). With all projects I get so interested and want to have a perfect product but I spend too much time on details which end up being bad a$$ but the final objective is way incomplete. That's one reason why I admire Kaz, he's a perfectionist living in an un-perfect world.
 

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