Does Skill in GT4 Correlate With Youth?

[Dotini]

I'm over 60 and, GTPlanet forums nothwithstanding, play in relative isolation. So it was astounding to me to observe the scene when my cousin Karl and his son of 12, Kole, began playing GT4 with their new Christmas present. Karl, who is an accomplished musician, golfer and skier, and who owns and drives a wide variety of vehicles including a 427 Cobra, drives enthusiastically and brings all his adult experience to the wheel (Karl won't allow a hand controller). Kole, on the other hand, who obviously has no real world driving experience, drives totally intuitively and, I must say, with many times the sensitivity and skill of his father. Instantly, he is winning races with stock cars that once took me ages to tune and practice for. He is well over the 100 A-spec level while Karl is still struggling to earn more than 10 per race.

All this makes me think that GT4 has to do with something other than real world driving ability. I have the experience of literally hundreds of kart and car races over the last 40 years. Yet my nephew of 12 is driving better than when I started the hobby of what I call "TV racing" just two short years ago.

 

[sukerkin]

'Better' is always going to be a subjective term when it comes to something like GT I reckon.

I'd admit that it is certain that 'youth' may be an advantage when it comes to playing the 'game' as there are no 'real world' preconceptions getting the way of throwing pixels around the screen. There are driving approaches and 'exploits' that the game will let you get away with that in the real world would either not work or be down-right dangerous.

I have always driven the game as if it is 'for real' and I have done well enough over the years. My experience has been that the 'youths' I have raced against could sometimes get past me (usually in a fashion that would break their car) but I would normally overtake them again, either at the next corner or the next lap when smoothness and track knowledge has nibbled away the lead their brashness and reflexes gained them .

 

[mafia_boy]

I can speak on both sides here. I was a youth that would touch ANY arcade game that had a steering wheel to race with. You name it over the years through the 80's & 90's:

*Pole Position
*Chase HQ
*Super Sprint
*Outrun
*Test Drive
*Need For Speed (the original, not the underground/hot pursuit/carbon versions)
etc.

All those games gave me the reflexes to drive quickly when it came to driving on the road for real at the racetrack or dragstrip. Also when it came to emergency situations, because 3/4 of my time on the game would be avoiding crashes I was better suited to be more aware if those situations came up (ie. losing control of the car, getting around accidents, etc.)

I was already just reaching my 20's when the GT series came out, but I've still got 1,2,3 & 4. I've noticed that my tuning style has adjusted more to make my game cars more realistic to my road cars because that's what I'm more used to now being the 'responsible' adult who drives around all the time and adjusted the cars more to my real life. It doesn't mean I'm any slower though, I still whip all the kiddies butt's in my area on a game of GT4, and only mates my age (late 20's to early 30's) give me a challenge when they play here. The kiddies might be better at Street Fighter now than I am, but on a track they still can't compete with me.

 

[PF]

Hmmm, I'm 32 and have never held a license, so maybe my opinion isn't worth a great deal here, but...

I hate cars and have done since a potato farmer from Walcha tried to run me down on my bike with his ute when I was about 11. At least that's what it felt like at the time. GT1 was like an epiphany, showing me the intricacies of tuning and changing my perception of a tuned car from a bogan's penis extension to a piece of self expression and, occasionally, beauty (perhaps as defined by Keats in 'Ode on a Grecian Urn', where art/beauty is something that can communicate directly with a person, regardless of vast differences, eg time as in Keats, or culture/language as in gtp).

However, this is very different to the Arcade style of GT, which focuses on reflexes and motor-neurone thingies. As sukerkin implied, real-life racing experience at a high level could even detract from GT4 skill because you have the instinctive urge not to kill yourself while racing to a greater degree than the rest of us. I seem to recall Dotini saying that he used Auto tranny to avoid confusing his brain as his IRL Kart had the gearstick on the opposite side; this is another example of the neurological interaction between IRL instinct and gameplay-reflexes that a 12yo will not have.

Hey, do you guys think I over-analyse things? Be honest.

Anyway, we need to at least make the distinction between Arcade-style and Simulation/Tuning. Dotini is a great example of the latter; by coincidence, just yesterday I was considering making a post to thank you for your comments on the forum, cause whenever I see the name I know it's going to be insightful, honest, humble, and bloody educational.

No 12yo could do that.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

PF, you do over-analyze. Not that this is a bad thing. I over-analyze too.


This awesome thread deserves to be in the general GT4 area, rather than the "tuning & setting" area.

I used to street race when i was 18 to 23 till i wrecked my car. Ironically, i wasn't racing when i wrecked, i simply wasn't paying attention. In any event, it was a wakeup call for me. I vowed never again would i have a major accident and i'm 42 now. I have such a clean record, my car insurance is just $32 a month!

Anyways, since i dont race r/l anymore, this is why i videogame race so much. It's how i get a certain kick, a certain high.



As to your question, I think Kole the 12-year old drives better than Karl, the real-life racer, because Kole (as you intoned) feels the game on an intuitive level. Has he played other games before (other than GT4?) I'm guessing "yes".

The way kids learn computer stuff faster than adults has something to do with it. GT4 has some real-life physics & concepts, yes, but in a very generic way. There are other games that go into more detail (especially with car damage and stuff like that).

But, bottom line? Yes, Kole "gets" the game, whereas Karl may have real-life experience, but perhaps has not been fully able to apply such experiences to the game. 💡

 

[Gil]

I can beat all my kids. Though I've had to stop giving them a 100HP advantage.
I think us old timers, especially those of us that grew up with RWD cars, tend to drive to the car physics we are used to.
We drive "knowing" what a real car would do.
Those "pure" racers are trying to avoid collision with other cars, the walls, etc.
I know in GT3, I can be beaten by a "competent" wall rider. But usually not by someone of equal skill who plays within the guidelines of online racing.

 

[PF]

This awesome thread deserves to be in the general GT4 area, rather than the "tuning & setting" area.

I tend to agree Parnelli. Having a Tuning vs Arcade debate should be in the general forum so more 'opposing' voices are heard.

I also tend to agree that this is an awesome thread.

Can one of the mods that lurk around here (Smallhorses? daan?) please shift this to the general forum? I'm sure I speak for all GT4 tuners when I say we'd love you forever, and I might even send you flowers.

 

[niky]

It will all depend on how good a racer you are in real life.

I know kids who could beat me in Gran Turismo with one hand tied behind their back. In real life? It'll depend. They may not have the experience to recognize tire slip or the instinct to avoid suddenly snapping the car sideways like you can in GT4 with no permanently damaging results... but they might be better. You'll never know until both of you get into go-karts and have a go at it.

There are guys who are much faster than me instinctively who are also much faster on the racetrack in real life. They are those who understand car physics and exploit them properly. I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm about 1-2 seconds off of the ultimate pace in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (the highest I've gotten, so far, on the GT5P lap time boards is around 58... but I don't spend all night glued to my PS3... ). And that's the way I am in real-life... about a few clicks off of the fastest guys in any group I run, though high enough to place in the top 10%. Guys I know who are 18-20-something who are slower than me in the game are always slower on the racetrack... if that counts for anything.

It's not just youth, though. It's an understanding of the physics involved, accuracy and consistency. At Formula One levels of racing, millisecond level reflexes may count, but below that, experience and concentration count for more. I believe old-time racers could excel at Gran Turismo if they coould attune themselves to the lack of sensory feedback in a racing game. And if you're starting from a videogame with the relatively accurate physics of Gran Turismo, you've got an advantage once you start track-driving in real-life. (just don't try grass-mowing or kerb-hopping... ...expensive way to shave tenths off your laptime) I was a veteran at GT before my first track day, and all that practice really paid off.

 

[Small_Fryz]

I think you need to be a certain age though. I mean if we talk "fastest in the world" in a timed challenge with no wall hits and no cutting.

In my experience racing GT4 at the top level that was availaible, 12 - 14 GT forums all over the net pick their 10 best and we compete. i found that 18 - 19yr was the youngest and some were into their 40's and 50's. So i think early - late 20's seem to be the fastest with a few guys 30+ and a few 18 - 20.

 

[niky]

Sounds right. In sports, it seems that athletes can keep their "edge" up till their mid-30s, if they're lucky, and those at the sharp end can be anywhere from 18-28.

Of course, there are those freaks of nature who can still drive sideways at three digit speeds well into their sixties... but they're too old to be interested in Gran Turismo...

 

[PF]

Of course, there are those freaks of nature who can still drive sideways at three digit speeds well into their sixties... but they're too old to be interested in Gran Turismo...

Dotini

I'm assuming this was a facetious comment niky, it's hard to pick up sometimes.

 

[niky]

It was a comment born of envy. I had the opportunity to ride shotgun in an M5 and an M3 with a 67 year old rally driver, and to be honest, those were some of the most amazing few minutes of my life. No amount of parking lot or rally stage "drifting" can match the excitement that little old man could wring out of those machines...

 

[Skygrasper550]

answer to question: somehow. not only does it apply in GT4, but all, if not other, video games. it has something to do with reflexes, perhaps?? as the professionals and doctors say, the age where reflexes slow down is around 18-21.., that's when most gamers retire..,

but still, age doesn't prevent you from playing and enjoying the best racing game ever IMO. 👍👍

@ Mafs - I feel you. I too, always get interested to check out an arcade machine that had a steering wheel. 16 here, Outrun was the first racing game I have ever played. Now, I'm playing IDAS 4.., :tup:

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I think the bottom line is:

Kole, the 12-year old, "gets" the game, knows what he has to do to excell, and therefore is ahead of Karl so far as skill goes. However, I would also bet that Kole (being a kid) has more experience with computer games in general.

Karl, on the other hand, sounds very experienced with real-world driving, but perhaps is not so experienced with comptuer games. Sitting in front of a TV "simulating" a race is not what he typically does. Karl is therefore a bit of a newb to GT4 and computer games in general. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Also, let's not forget the fact that Karl is trying to use a wheel, rather than learning with a dual-shock, which (in my opinion) is more forgiving. The first time i tried racing with a wheel, i downright SUCKED. I was virtually a newb again. But if Karl keeps racing GT4 with the wheel, in the long run he will get better of course. He may even get to the point that he beats Kole (or catches up to him).

 

[C-ZETA]

I definitely think it's down to how hardcore the gamer is. Hardcore gamers are more used to video games that can take an age to complete. Perhaps Karl is more used to casual games, and normally casual gamers take a lot of time to really get going in games for the hardcore like this one.

 

[Gil]

Some of the fastest guys here are not young 'uns.
anyone besides me remember Old Geezer?
There is also Mr P.
The Geezer beat GT3 before he learned about tuning.:eek"

 

[mafia_boy]

@ Mafs - I feel you. I too, always get interested to check out an arcade machine that had a steering wheel. 16 here, Outrun was the first racing game I have ever played. Now, I'm playing IDAS 4.., :tup:

For some reason, I stopped getting into IDAS at #2. Still remember having a Yellow Evo 7 done up like the Jun Hyper Lemon car. But that's mainly because of the GT series being more interesting to me.

Wouldn't mind seeing IDAS 4 get onto next gen though.

 

[AERO_HDT]

I've often wondered the same thing, LOL. In my old age, I seem not to have the memory, intelligence or reflexes of youth.

Probably too many beers over the years!

 

[MadMax]

In my opinion it goes like this: reflexes < experiense

And when it comes to racing on the limits that's where experience speaks for itself.

 

[Alltidxx]

All those games gave me the reflexes to drive quickly when it came to driving on the road for real at the racetrack or dragstrip.

I believe in this. The closer the simulation of the game the more one can apply it to real life. For example, I have played MotoGP 06 and MotoGP 07 a lot at simulation settings. Then one day I went with collegues to a fun mini-bike event as a warm up to an evening party. I had only driven a moped once and a motocross once in my life (for 15 min). I gym alot so I weigh over 100kgs. I was something like two tenths slower than the fastest guy in our group and that guy was 20kgs lighter than me and had competed in motocross when he was younger. How come I did so good? I had played MotoGP on playstation. Just like the guy in the movie Fool's Gold laughs, when he flies the plane, that he learnt it by playing playstation
I could feel the speed and handling in the game so I knew in real life on the mini-bike how to approach corners at just the right speed and hit throttle at just right time and trust that the bike would angle up from that because it had in the game. It was a really cool realisation when it worked the same in real life. I felt as if I had done it before many times. The only new sensation was the pressure on my hands during braking.

 

[Jester187]

Well guys, I finally read through all those posts.. And I do feel inclined to share my own opinion on the matter.

I hate to say it, but I remember when my dad brought home GT1 on PS1 back when it was a new system. And he would sit there and play and play and play for hours on end. He had a 1993 Prelude all done up with the racing modifications and all the goodies, i remember it like it was yesterday. Seeing as how I was only 9 at the time, I never understood what he was doing trying to get the "Fastest Laps" and "Fine Tuning the suspension". Then I hit 11. I started playing in GT1.. not really for the tuning, just to beat my brother at high speed ring. Then I jumped straight to GT2 and did the same thing. Then i got a PS2 and the first game i got for it, was GT3 A-spec. i used to sit on super speedway, and then my dad started teaching my brother how to corner, and my motto was always 8 wheels corner better than 4. but then he started beating me on trial mountain. So I tried to do better, and the simulation mode and all that.. And then I remember the first time I beat my dad. and the second, and the third, and the fourth.. he couldn't believe it.. this kid with NO real world driving experience can kick his ass. Well, then I hit 16 and got my license.. and I think in order to be the best, you need to;
A) Realize it's only a game, and your car isn't screwed if you have too much fun
and
B) real world physics still have some effect in how your car moves in this simulation.

When you accept the fact that you can screw up and not die, you improve. And when you figure out all the fun things you can do to the car and keep it on the track with little exploits, it's even more fun. What you need is a combination of gaming experience and real world driving i think.. i threw a lap of nurburg on with a biddy of mine, him in a 12000hp TVR... and me in an under 500hp 240.. and I still smoked him. It's not dependent on one or the other, it's a combination of the two that will help you win. And me sitting at a mere 18 being able to smoke my dad, who worked at racetracks and has real world experience, is quite a bit to be happy about

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Wait i'm confused. You're Dontini's grand-nephew? I thought you were only 12. Or are you related to him at all?