Does the concept of Gran Truismo still work?

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Slurm

Slurm

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Surely, Kazunori, with all the traveling and racing you’ve done you’d realize it’s idiotic to mix fantasy mad-up cars with LMP cars from one year and LMP cars from another. Racing the 908HDi against the R18 and the TS030 is a clear sign of PD still not knowing how the hell racing works in the first place, such a disparate mixture will result in either artificially capped cars or the traditional “catch the rabbit” format we all love...

..Gran Turismo is dying and Polyphony killed it.
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I was just replying to this post by "CarBastard" in the news section, but I thought it might make an interesting discussion. Anyway, here is what I was going to say:

I fully understand your complaints, but rather than PD killing GT, perhaps it's just the flawed nature of what GT has always been since birth.

When GT1 was first made, the concept of racing completely different classes of cars together was really central to the game: 6 cars, one race, restrictions: 4WD (for example). The game featured a totally eclectic mix of cars, and a huge number too (for it's time). The scenarios were pure fantasy/arcade, but that was back in the 90's and at the time we loved the idea of racing JGTC cars against fantasy "race modified" creations, against 1000hp nissan skylines, to see what would happen.

But now it's 2016 and Gran Truismo, and the premise of the mixed class/one prize races is still fundamentally the same. Why doesn't that work anymore and is there any concept for a racing game that might be equally fresh and original now?
 
It still works. Problem is PD's stale execution.

The GT3 races in GT6 were fine. It's the AI that became the elephant in the room. PD never addressed it.

Gran Turismo is still relevant. It can stay as it was from GT1. There is just a lack(or maybe the word is slack, in this instance) of creativity from PD. They've jumbled everything Kaz wanted, with no direction.

As in the discussion thread, Kaz wants this to be a new GT. We'll have to wait til it's completed to find out what he means.
 
Slurm
But now it's 2016 and Gran Truismo, and the premise of the mixed class/one prize races is still fundamentally the same. Why doesn't that work anymore and is there any concept for a racing game that might be equally fresh and original now?
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I think it's slightly different. The cars in GT1 were either real cars, modified versions of real cars that either did exist or could very easily exist if someone merely wanted to spend the money to do it, or recent prototypes.

The fantasy cars in GTS range from custom built prototypes that could probably be built if anyone cared to make entire custom chassis and drivetrains to engineering wet dreams that probably would never be built even if the technology existed.

In terms of the "believability" of the cars, it was pretty close to real in GT1, and it's pretty close to fantasy for a lot of the cars in GTS.

As far as the fundamental design of Gran Turismo as a carPG, I don't think there's anything flawed with that. It needs refining and advancement over what it was 20 years ago and it's never really gotten that, but it can be done. The problem with GT5 and 6 was that there was little structure, it was just a pile of content for content's sake. That's fine for some, but others prefer more goals, structure and objectives. Maybe something to help them create a personal narrative and connect with the game.

Gamers these days are everyone, which really raises the bar for game design. Gran Turismo hasn't really evolved much at all since it started, in some ways it's gone backwards.
 
The fact most people tolerated those kind of mixed battles in earlier GT games and can't do it in latest ones could have something to do with overall quality difference between older and newer GT games. If lots of other things work great, it is easier to disregard one or two things that don't.
 
The concept absolutely does work and there is no-one else doing what Gran Turismo is doing (at least on Playstation) which is loads of cars of different types, loads of different tracks on different surfaces, loads of different kinds of races, car tuning etc. Gran Turismo does many many things and that's why I love the concept. Have to wait and see what GT Sport will turn out to be like. Most likely I'll end up buying it because there isn't really an alternative on the market.
 
The thing is, GTS is concentrated around actual motorsport racing following FIA rules while the main games are concentrated in getting a cheap car and working your way up. That is where the concept of different varieties of cars in the same race start to fall. People would indeed be real upset if you had to race different era cars that are in the SAME CLASS in GTS because of that.
 
Jarmo
The concept absolutely does work and there is no-one else doing what Gran Turismo is doing (at least on Playstation) which is loads of cars of different types, loads of different tracks on different surfaces, loads of different kinds of races, car tuning etc. Gran Turismo does many many things and that's why I love the concept. Have to wait and see what GT Sport will turn out to be like. Most likely I'll end up buying it because there isn't really an alternative on the market.
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But GTS isn't that sort of game. They've been very clear that it's not a traditional Gran Turismo game. It doesn't have loads of different cars, they're organised into a few categories, there are only a few tracks, there will be limited to no car tuning, and so on.

The alternative if you want a traditional GT experience is Forza Motorsport 6. That's all that exists these days. Forza Horizon 3 probably bears more similarity to a traditional GT game than GTS seems to.
 
Imari
But GTS isn't that sort of game. They've been very clear that it's not a traditional Gran Turismo game. It doesn't have loads of different cars, they're organised into a few categories, there are only a few tracks, there will be limited to no car tuning, and so on.

The alternative if you want a traditional GT experience is Forza Motorsport 6. That's all that exists these days. Forza Horizon 3 probably bears more similarity to a traditional GT game than GTS seems to.
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Yes I am aware that this isn't going to be the classic GT I described. I was talking about the concept of the classic GT, which is still very much functional.

You also probably noticed that I added the "at least on Playstation". With that I was referring to my status of not owning any other console. I'd love if Forza was on Playstation but it isn't and I'm not planning on getting an Xbox. That's why GT Sport will be my best and only option for getting at least some of the things I want.
 
Jarmo
Yes I am aware that this isn't going to be the classic GT I described. I was talking about the concept of the classic GT, which is still very much functional.

You also probably noticed that I added the "at least on Playstation". With that I was referring to my status of not owning any other console. I'd love if Forza was on Playstation but it isn't and I'm not planning on getting an Xbox. That's why GT Sport will be my best and only option for getting at least some of the things I want.
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Meh.

GTS has about as good a chance of giving you some of the things that you want (depending what exactly they are) as Assetto Corsa, Project CARS, Dirt Rally, F1 2016 or Driveclub. I mean, at this point as far as we know GTS is basically iRacing without the pricing model, which is almost as far from traditional GT as you can get.

Even if by some miracle it turns out to be your best option for getting some GT-like elements, it's far from the only one. Depending on what you're after the aforementioned games can do a pretty good job at supplying. Hell, even The Crew or NFS might be better if you're only looking for certain things.
 
Samus
Is it? According to Kaz GT Sport is the start of a new generation of GT games, GT1-6 was part 1, GT Sport going forwards is part 2. There is no guarantee it's even going to return to the old formula.
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Well in the sense that I'd still love to have a new game doing the same classic thing and by the looks of things so would a great deal many other people. There are always going to be new cars on the market and new cars mean the possibility of new games giving new content. That's why I think it's a formula that still functions. That doesn't mean Kaz is going to make another game like that though.

Imari
Meh.

GTS has about as good a chance of giving you some of the things that you want (depending what exactly they are) as Assetto Corsa, Project CARS, Dirt Rally, F1 2016 or Driveclub. I mean, at this point as far as we know GTS is basically iRacing without the pricing model, which is almost as far from traditional GT as you can get.

Even if by some miracle it turns out to be your best option for getting some GT-like elements, it's far from the only one. Depending on what you're after the aforementioned games can do a pretty good job at supplying. Hell, even The Crew or NFS might be better if you're only looking for certain things.
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I think Project CARS would be the next closest thing for me. The car list is quite lacking though.
 
Jarmo
I think Project CARS would be the next closest thing for me. The car list is quite lacking though.
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...

Have you seen how many cars are in GTS? I think you're gonna be disappointed.
 
Jarmo
140 isn't it? Isn't that pretty much double the amount of Project CARS?
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Put the two lists side by side and see which one you'd prefer. I'd guess most people would prefer PCars myself. More real cars, classics, more variety of classes etc.
 
But PCars sucks online... 1/10 races are decent. The rest is a wreckfest.
 
syntex123
But PCars sucks online... 1/10 races are decent. The rest is a wreckfest.
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I'm in the offline spectrum of players. PCars AI @95-100 is enough to satisfy me. Best offline experience I've had. Better than I've had in Forza4&6. GT just can't compare and I want GT to be better than that(ain't gonna happen).
 
Yeah PCars is really solid offline, not going to argue there.
 
I think what ill miss most about GT, is the sense of car ownership.
I posted a thread about using GT6 to possibly purchase a new car. Games today, have not made me feel that way about owning a car the way GT has. I think that part of the concept lasted through to GT5P. Seeing the detail of the Corvette and Swift RMs in HD, made me want to own those cars in real life.
 
Jarmo
140 isn't it? Isn't that pretty much double the amount of Project CARS?
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You'll note that GTS is almost certainly going to double count, due to the fact that they have stock and modified versions of the same car. I wouldn't be surprised if GTS ends up with less than 70 actual unique models represented.

Not to mention that the pCARS GOTY version (which is available now) has 125 cars and 35 tracks which is significantly more than GTS is aiming for with 140 cars and 19 tracks. I'll give up 15 cars for 15 tracks any day.
 
I agree. The more variety of tracks the better. A livery editor usually solves the "problem" of a perceived low car count. Tracks though. Can we imagine a GT with every track from GT1-GTS? Replace the VGT cars with Used Car garage. Bump the AI up to 10. Keep the FiA thing, combine all the past and current GT Academy events as offline challenges and I think this would be a fantastic start to a new era in virtual racing.
 
05XR8
I agree. The more variety of tracks the better. A livery editor usually solves the "problem" of a perceived low car count. Tracks though. Can we imagine a GT with every track from GT1-GTS? Replace the VGT cars with Used Car garage. Bump the AI up to 10. Keep the FiA thing, combine all the past and current GT Academy events as offline challenges and I think this would be a fantastic start to a new era in virtual racing.
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It's definitely more about variety than sheer count for me. 140 could be a perfectly good number in GTS if it was varied, so far it doesn't really appear to be. It's LMP1s, GT3s, GT4s, road cars and fantasy knock off versions of those real classes. Oh and rally versions of those road cars. All of them are from the last 7 years.

I'm actually surprised more people aren't making such a fuss of that, I know we don't have the full list yet and with the delay there is scope for change, but considering the past car lists it seems strange more people aren't bothered by the tiny range of cars in GTS.
 
Imari
You'll note that GTS is almost certainly going to double count, due to the fact that they have stock and modified versions of the same car. I wouldn't be surprised if GTS ends up with less than 70 actual unique models represented.

Not to mention that the pCARS GOTY version (which is available now) has 125 cars and 35 tracks which is significantly more than GTS is aiming for with 140 cars and 19 tracks. I'll give up 15 cars for 15 tracks any day.
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Yes the GOTY version is the one I bought and was surprised how much content it has.
 
Samus
It's definitely more about variety than sheer count for me. 140 could be a perfectly good number in GTS if it was varied, so far it doesn't really appear to be. It's LMP1s, GT3s, GT4s, road cars and fantasy knock off versions of those real classes. Oh and rally versions of those road cars. All of them are from the last 7 years.

I'm actually surprised more people aren't making such a fuss of that, I know we don't have the full list yet and with the delay there is scope for change, but considering the past car lists it seems strange more people aren't bothered by the tiny range of cars in GTS.
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PD just get stuck with thinking we need all versions of the one car. The Sting Ray: '14 Prototype, '14 pre production, '14 production model, '13 special aero package, '14 15th Anniv Ed.

BMW M4, etc...

I'll mention GT5P again. Perfect example of variety in a game of that size. 1960 Corvette, '76 512BB, '91 Integrale, '00 Clio V6, '07 Daihatsu Cervo, D1 Drift Car, F1 racer, RMs. Many cars were from 2007 even though the came came out in 2010.

GTS 2016 cars will be out of date because of the yet again delays. The 2017 MX-5 RF is due and Fiat 124. The Alfa sports sedan. New Infiniti Coupe. New Golf. They'll be playing catch up for the next 4-5 years.
 
Interesting thread!

Samus
It's definitely more about variety than sheer count for me. 140 could be a perfectly good number in GTS if it was varied, so far it doesn't really appear to be. It's LMP1s, GT3s, GT4s, road cars and fantasy knock off versions of those real classes. Oh and rally versions of those road cars. All of them are from the last 7 years. I'm actually surprised more people aren't making such a fuss of that, I know we don't have the full list yet and with the delay there is scope for change, but considering the past car lists it seems strange more people aren't bothered by the tiny range of cars in GTS.
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I am bothered by this - sufficiently so that I might skip GTS altogether and so might most of the friends that I race with online.

My hobby is hosting online championships which are inspired by historic events or the careers of past drivers - the sort of stuff which could easily be in a game, but hasn't been so far in GT. We use historic race and road cars in a realistic way rather than the random mix approach of GT5 and 6 which pits cars of different era's together. Currently we are running a tribute to Dave MacDonald (Corvette and Cobra Legend) using the Art Morrison Corvette (C1), 1963 Corvette Race Car (C2), Shelby Cobra 427 and the XJ13 Jaguar painted to replicate a Cooper Ford ("King Cobra") or Cooper Chevrolet. Past championships which have been very popular have used the Classic Mini mixed with substitute cars to recreate 1960's saloon racing.

I bought Project Cars Game of The Year Edition with the intention of switching from GT6 in Spring 2017, but have been very disappointed with the car list - there is classic or historic content, but it is randomly spread throughout the list in such a way that it can only be used for single make racing. It is as if the person selecting the cars had no knowledge of motor racing history. You get a classic Aston Martin sports car, but there is nothing to race it against and this story is repeated throughout the list.

It is perfectly possible to put together a list of 125 or 137 cars and create realistic and interesting series for both modern and historic race and road cars.

Sadly Assetto Corsa (so far) also looks as if it's historic content has the same random approach adopted by Project Cars with the result that the historic cars will only be of any use in single make championships.

Kazunori said that classic cars were selected based on their historic significance, but the implementation of this to date has been poor and very random - suggesting a lack of strategy, vision and knowledge - however us classic fans were able to put together some interesting series on GT5 and 6 despite this, by using substitute cars / replicas because the car list was sufficiently large.

There is a potential positive from the current GTS car list - the presence of FIA championships has forced PD to think about a structure (classes) into which to fit the car content. If the structure is extended and applied to historic and classic cars when they are added to the game we might be able to hold realistic races with online friends (or via an event creator). PD would need to swot up on their motor racing history, identify the iconic cars from a range of era's and motor sport categories and then add an appropriate number of competing cars. For example: the motorsport icons of the 1960's would include the Ford GT40 (Sports) the classic Mini (Saloon) the E Type Jaguar (GT). In many cases the competing cars already exist within GT6 so just need cleaning up for GTS. If as well as identifying the iconic cars on which to build a car list strategy PD also identified those cars which have special historic significance because they crossed motorsport boundaries PD could then have a truly versatile list. For example the 1963 Ford Galaxie raced in NASCAR and virtually the same Holman & Moody prepared cars also raced in the BSCC, the ETCC, Australia and South Africa (the Springbok Series). Another example - The Lola T70 won the inaugural Can Am championship, but also competed throughout Europe including at Le Mans. This sort of approach to the car list yields cars which can be used in multiple series so increases variety while reducing the amount of modelling required.

I find it unbelievable that all those premium car assets from GT5 and 6, which we were told were future-proofed, are seemingly going to waste in GTS. There is the potential for PD to make a truly great game - I sincerely hope they do.
 
I think the basic premise of GT can still work, the problem is it hasn't evolved all that much. Really the last major step I can recall a "sandbox racer" taking is Forza 2 with it's community features. Since than there have been some minor things like the Vision GT and Academy programs, photo mode as well as various licensing deals but they haven't really moved the concept into the next level. Both Forza and GT, the two main series', continue to use the same basic career mode structure that pre-dates GT1 and just include cars for the sake of including them. Not to mention the lack of proper race weekend formats and fixed race/championship length's in both franchises have hurt them in my view.

T10 seems to be attempting to take the concept into the next level by adding cars that compliment others and the potential of Blueprint coming to the Motorsports side could be nice if done well. PD is taking a much bigger risk by moving the concept into a more structured online type of racing game.
 

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