Drift like Fangio - No Countersteer Drift

Discussion in 'GT5 Drifting' started by GhostZ, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. GhostZ

    GhostZ

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    I've dropped a bit off the grid recently, but before doing so, I started working into some interesting techniques that I think I'm ready to share. This is an extension for my Three and Four Wheel Drift techniques.

    First, an introduction on tire technology. Cars do not roll in the path that the tires are traveling. All tires have a form of slip angle. The average of direction of the wheels' contact patches, minus the slip angles, gives the path of the actual car.

    At a certain slip angle, the tires get their most grip.

    Up until recently, Bias Ply tires were commonly used. These tires get their most grip at a slip angle that is high, because the cords of rubber beneath the contact patch are angled against eachother (like a crosshatch) and reinforced. In more modern tires, Radial ply cords are perpendicular to the rim.

    [​IMG]

    Radial tires have a low slip angle in which they get the most mechanical grip. Bias ply tires get more grip at a higher slip angle. The exact angle itself depends on the tire, but Radials tend to get best grip under 10 degrees, and Bias Play over 15. Now, this doesn't factor much into GT5 since it doesn't take into account a lot of tire deformation, however, it does take into account variations of slip angle and grip coefficient.

    Next, rubber gets a higher grip coefficient at a certain temperature. Depending on the compound of the tire, depends on the best grip. This is also emulated in GT5.

    You will need to understand four wheel drift, not e-brakes or wild angle drifts, but fast low-angle and highly controlled four wheel drifts.

    What does this have to do with drifting, when the tires are both beyond heat and slip angle tolerances? Not much.

    But also everything.

    The technique that I've been working on is, quite simply, a no countersteer drift. This is drifting, at an angle, without any steering input, in perfect line. The rear tires smoke, the front tires squeal (but do not smoke) the steering wheel can be completely let go of, and the only thing changing the direction of the car is throttle.

    Compared to every other technique I've tried, this one is by far the closest to perfect speed and angle that I can figure out.

    It requires entering the corner at racing speed, threshhold braking, but maintaining a few mph above grip cornering, and steer into the corner. During liftoff and steer-in, the front tires start to gently slide, but not lose grip. There is the squealing noise, they start to warm up, but they do not turn red. Next, throttle application happens. This is when the steering can be completely let go of. The car maintains an angle, but as long as the throttle is completely stable, and you have calculated the necessary torque to achieve the proper spin, the rear tires travel at a slight slip angle that is equal to the slip angle at the front.

    The result is a normal four wheel drift, but without the front wheels needing to steer to counteract the throttle on the rear. In this scenario, sometimes the inside front wheel will regain traction and the four wheel drift will become a three wheel drift, depending on how the weight is balanced. The front tires are kept warm and at their ideal slip angles, so even though they are technically 'sliding', they produce more grip and none of that grip is needing to be used to change the body's direction, since the small, but very present, additional rear torque is rotating the rear of the car instead. The result is greater cornering forces overall.

    I have tested this, and it can be maintained at higher speed drifts over distances, it is not just for short angles. This, combined with other techniques and under perfect execution, has dropped lap times to 93% of 'normal' high speed 2 wheel countersteer drifting in the same tune. This means that individual drift corners are faster, with no sacrifice in angle or amount of smoke produced from old techniques. This is very closely approaching The Perfect Drifting Experience that I outlined before. Namely, a car that can corner at grip racing speeds while still producing the same benefits that drifting does, so that oversteer is no longer a 'bad' factor in cornering theory, but a tool to be used to a driver's advantage.

    One note I would like to make though, is that this type of drift is only possible with narrow rear tread and very little toe. I've managed it in my 240Z and FC with good success.

    Try it out.
     
  2. Lock2Lock

    Lock2Lock Premium

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    Ghost.

    Basically what you are describing is speed drifting. The method you are talking about is commonly used in Touge. Which isn't a issue at all, it is driver style.

    Me, I honestly don't think this type of drifting looks good. All "No counter steer drifting" is to me is taking advantage of understeer. Which yes, you can run at a higher speed (sometimes), but in all reality you are slowing down on the tight hair pins.

    I honestly believe you would hate this type of style if you were on a wheel, or having a issue copping with it.

    However...
    If you wouldn't mind, I would like to try one of your cars. I will give a honest review on everything from feeling to performance. I will give my honest opinion.

    One thing I have a issue with (also with most people that are drifting on a DS3) is the lifeless feeling and look in the suspension. So if your suspensions are like that, it will not be "The Perfect Drifting Experience" (not saying your tunes are like that).

    Like many others have said to you before, drifting is all about style. I know plenty of people (on good days including myself) that can pull huge angle and still follow some of the fastest drifters or speed drifters.

    Don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying your style is wrong, nor am I trying to offend you. Drifting, it is driver vs driver and style vs style. Everyone has their own style. What may be "The Perfect Drifting Experience" to you, may be "The Worst Drifting Experience" to them.

    I would be willing to test your cars. I would be interested in giving one of your cars are try. Let me know when and how you would like to do this.
     
  3. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Can my Devil Z be drifted this way ? :D
     
  4. Lock2Lock

    Lock2Lock Premium

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    If you are talking to me, I haven't had the time to test/tune any of my cars at all. I have been so busy.
     
  5. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    That's okay, It was a question to both you and the OP. I am curious what sort of 240Z he has tuned for drift ...
     
  6. Lock2Lock

    Lock2Lock Premium

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    Same here.
     
  7. LPTuner

    LPTuner

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    Hmm... I've tried alot of styles, the one ghost is referring to is one of them. It's fun in some instances, but can get a little old. And as for you Lock... Big angle drift is ALOT of fun :D
     
  8. Rallywagon

    Rallywagon Premium

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    It is also referred to a neutral steer, I use it often during league races, mostly due to the fact that my style of racing comes from rally/touge/drift. Tsuchiya used it a lot when he was racing GT-Rs back in the early 90's.
    I find that for racing purposes, I use it mostly for cars that we are running on sports tires, especially on the higher horsepower cars. i find that I can exit a corner far faster, and in a higher gear/better rpm than taking the corner with grip. It does take practice though, since the brake zone is a little different, and it can be harder to cleanly hit an apex. That said, racing tires have to much grip for neutral steer, you can initiate, and depending on the car slide around a sharper corner, but longer corners the front tires want to grab far to fast. As for drifting, I use a combination of techniques depending on the situation, but mostly neutral steer only if I'm trying to catch back up.

    Ridox, to answer your question, probably. I don't know your tune, so I cant say 100%, but all rwd and awd cars can be set up to neutral steer, even wrong wheel drive can to an extent, but only on quick, hairpin type corners where you wont power back on until you've passed the apex.

    Nice write up Ghost, I look forward to reading more on the techniques you've developed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  9. SLaBaTaC

    SLaBaTaC

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    I 'speed drift' quite well on the wheel and i love it.Most spite me for this style though.
     
  10. Rallywagon

    Rallywagon Premium

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    I can see that. It has its places. Tarmac, rally, touge. however, the technique is kind of counter drift. It dips more into the realm of race and out of the realm of IDK, flow... its harder to tandem and mistakes cost more the faster you go. Stress levels are also raised a bit, which takes, at least for me, away from drifting. Might be why you get spite. Though, there is enough other crap going on in drift rooms, so I can't see that being over bothersome in most open lobbies.
     
  11. ACGreen86

    ACGreen86

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    I've been trying this with a controller. This is really hard to pull off perfectly. The closest I've come is giving it little touches of counter here and there through the curve, and trying my best to use the throttle to steer from the back.

    I've always thought of drifting like driving a boat (they steer from the back), but this is really hard. Maybe it's the controller, maybe it's me... All I know is that my lap times are WAY better than when I was full drifting, and also better than trying to just grip run. This is all on Comfort Hards with no aerodynamic aids by the way.

    It also seems to work differently with different cars. With my NSX it's really damn hard to do. With my Maserati, it was much easier. I thought it was a difference in weight, but that idea was ruined when it was also easier in the FT-86 Concept.
     
  12. Rallywagon

    Rallywagon Premium

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    It's not the weight difference, it's the weight distribution difference. An NSX has the engine in the back, putting more weight on the rear tires. That along with the fact that mid and rear engined cars have a propensity for understeer that switches quickly to snap oversteer makes it's more difficult to neutral steer. Add the finesseless DS3 to the equation, bluck. A wheel goes a long way in making every aspect of this game better. 3 years of using a wheel now, I'm not sure I could even race with a ds3.
     
  13. ACGreen86

    ACGreen86

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    Now I'm really wishing I hadn't broken my DFGT 3 years back... I could have been using that instead of this half broken controller.