Driving Aids and Forza Motorsport!!

[Ialyrn]

It would be appreciated if a Moderator or staff member could sticky this post, as it should prove helpful for players of Forza; both new and old.

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To carry on from my 2 videos regarding driving aids, the discussion yet again has started up on the Forza Forums (Link). Apparently ABS/TCS/STM will slow a person down, and once upon a time I would have agreed...... when my driving was not up to scratch that is. The real truth to the matter, is that those 3 assists will not slow you down at all; if your driving is good. You should be able to drive with them turned on, with the 3 lights barely showing up under braking, acceleration, and cornering. If they are always a constant fixture on your screen while driving, then you need to work more on your actual driving. Turning of the assists at this point, no matter how much someone may peer pressure you into doing so, will not make you a faster driver. In fact, it could quite easily put you off the game. In Conclusion, and as I said before. Use what ever driving assists make you feel comfortable and confident, and that allow you to enjoy the game. As before, just keep things clean with your racing, and let everything else go over your head.

To be quite honest, I am sick of it of it! So in the immortal words of popeye -


Too many times I see people berating others for using assists, and out right telling them they will always be slow while using them. I made two videos in regards to this previously, which will be linked at the bottom of this post. And I was going to do a proper 3rd part, but today has been the last straw for me in regards to this; so I am just going to show everyone on here, the Forza Forums, and on youtube, just what someone can do while using the ABS/TCS/STM driver assists.

Hope you all enjoy the video:


And my previous videos on this matter:



Sorry for the rant, and even though I am ranting, I am still attempting to help others with this post.

 

[waboo]

Sorry for the rant, and even though I am ranting, I am still attempting to help others with this post.

I saw these the other day, good work and thanks for being brave enough to educate those who question it all.

 

[Ialyrn]

I saw these the other day, good work and thanks for being brave enough to educate those who question it all.

I just want to help people get better and improve, but that has to be with their driving first and foremost. Anything beyond that does not matter so much. The only thing that will slow someone down, is skipping out on manual with clutch. But that is only relevant within the lower classes. For someone who spends their time in R/P/X class, even that is irrelevant to a point.

 

[GTracer38]

Whilst I do that people shouldn't be berated for using assists (I used them for a while) and I do agree that a driver can still be fast using those 3 assists (ABS/TCM/STM), I don't agree that you couldn't be quicker without them.

I'd raced with them for a long time but I ended up (slowly)'taking them off to try and be quicker in online series that I race in. When I say slowly, I mean I gradually took ABS and TCS off over a 2 year period.

Just as a notes before I keep going, I am excluding STM from this because I haven't used and don't know whether it could be better or worse.

The assist are there to help drivers learn the game and learn how to drive the lines properly. They're very good in that department. But they will (on most cars) limit you're potential just a fraction.

ABS gives you great comfort in knowing that you won't lock up, the brakes will always be slowing you down. However, it does extend the braking zone a fair bit. This means you're braking for longer. If you can take the time to learn to modulate brake application without ABS, you will be able to steal a few tenths off people who use it.
It's one of the more difficult transitions (it is for me at least) and takes the most time to get used, but it isn't impossible.

TCS gives you the ability to mash down on the throttle without the risk of breaking traction or spinning. However, it also gives you less usable power for a longer period of time then if you were to gently accelerate out of the corner, teetering on the wedge of traction. There's another few tenths you will be able to steal from someone using it.
Note: the current F1 seems to be an exception.

Having the assists off will be quicker then having them on, if you can manage it. Don't drop them all at once for the sake of winning an Aston. Gradually taking one off at a time, starting in slower cars and working upwards until you are confident in driving without it is the best way.
If you don't feel comfortable taking it off then leave it on as you'll only be making it more difficult and increasing the chance of a mistake for no gain, because you can't commit to the brakes/throttle. That's fine.

The only time I've really seen people getting told to take them off is when they're asking for help in shaving those extra tenths off on a rivals time. It's happening more of late thanks to the bounty.

In the end, make sure the assists you have on are only the ones necessary for you to be confident. Anymore then that is hampering you, and any less is not helping you.

 

[Ialyrn]

Whilst I do that people shouldn't be berated for using assists (I used them for a while) and I do agree that a driver can still be fast using those 3 assists (ABS/TCM/STM), I don't agree that you couldn't be quicker without them.

Ah, but you are making the assumption that I am saying that running the assists is quicker; I am not. I am only saying that you can run as fast with them on, nothing more and nothing less. I am having a long drawn out discussion on the Forza forums because someone else has made that mistake. They happen to be a top 10 driver, who has admitted they can set a top 10 time with ABS/TCS/STM turned on. Though they keep saying that I am wrong and misinforming people between occasional posts of stating that.

ABS gives you great comfort in knowing that you won't lock up, the brakes will always be slowing you down. However, it does extend the braking zone a fair bit. This means you're braking for longer. If you can take the time to learn to modulate brake application without ABS, you will be able to steal a few tenths off people who use it.
It's one of the more difficult transitions (it is for me at least) and takes the most time to get used, but it isn't impossible.

This is only true if you go full force on the brakes. If you only go to where the ABS light is just flashing, and then lift the brake ever so slightly, you will slow down in pretty much the same distances. If you watch that Honda Civic video, and compare it to any of my other videos on the ring that are not using the tv style camera, you will see that my braking is the same regardless. I run without the assists personally, only thrown them on for those 3 videos.

TCS gives you the ability to mash down on the throttle without the risk of breaking traction or spinning. However, it also gives you less usable power for a longer period of time then if you were to gently accelerate out of the corner, teetering on the wedge of traction. There's another few tenths you will be able to steal from someone using it.
Note: the current F1 seems to be an exception.

But again, you should not be going full on the throttle like that. This is the mistake that people make with the assists, they believe it will give them the ability to mash everything and do the same as someone who can get into the top 100 without any assists. It shows fundamentally flaws in their approach to driving a virtual car.

You still have to drive the cars properly to get the most out of them, with or without the assists.

 

[BoneSawTX]

When I get up into R class I start turning on the TCS for my safety, and Innocent bystanders.

 

[GTracer38]

Ah, but you are making the assumption that I am saying that running the assists is quicker; I am not.

No, I am making the assumption that you you are saying using assists is of no benefit nor any detriment to lap time. I am saying they will be slower if you are capable/confident of running without them.

This is only true if you go full force on the brakes. If you only go to where the ABS light is just flashing, and then lift the brake ever so slightly, you will slow down in pretty much the same distances. If you watch that Honda Civic video, and compare it to any of my other videos on the ring that are not using the tv style camera, you will see that my braking is the same regardless. I run without the assists personally, only thrown them on for those 3 videos.

If you are modulating the brakes to teeter on the edge of ABS then you are capable of not running ABS at all.
The braking zones are longer with ABS on because it doesn't let you run as close to brake locking as you can with it off.

But again, you should not be going full on the throttle like that. This is the mistake that people make with the assists, they believe it will give them the ability to mash everything and do the same as someone who can get into the top 100 without any assists. It shows fundamentally flaws in their approach to driving a virtual car.

I understand not to go full throttle. But I am saying that people running TCS are either in-capable or not confident in running without, thus the assumption they'd be utilizing the TCS rather then trying to modulate the throttle.

You still have to drive the cars properly to get the most out of them, with or without the assists.

Of course. Driving the correct lines, using the right gears, braking at the right point etc, are all key to getting good lap times.

 

[Ialyrn]

No, I am making the assumption that you you are saying using assists is of no benefit nor any detriment to lap time. I am saying they will be slower if you are capable/confident of running without them.

That is actually not true. Using the assists does not make you any slower than those not using them, and that is the misinformation this post has been made to rectify. You are doing exactly the same as the others who bully, browbeat, or pear pressure newer or less confident Forza players; by saying "turn them off, you will be faster". This is exactly what I am getting at.

Turning the assists off will not make someone faster, it would just make it more difficult for them to learn. That is not necessarily the best thing for them, as it hampers the learning process and can promote poor driving practices.

If you are modulating the brakes to teeter on the edge of ABS then you are capable of not running ABS at all.
The braking zones are longer with ABS on because it doesn't let you run as close to brake locking as you can with it off.

If you have remotely been following my posts on this forum, then you will know that I personally run with ABS/TCS/STM turned off.

And that goes right up to X-class:

The post is not about people telling me to "turn them off", it is purely about them trying to strong arm others.

When learning to drive, my driving instructor told me that if the ABS light comes on while braking, even while doing an emergency stop, then you are pressing too hard on the pedal. And that is exactly right. Once that light is flashing, you are not braking effectively. That often has the knock on effect of people pressing the brake pedal harder and harder, right up to the point that the ABS system is overwhelmed and they still lock up sliding to a halt. That is what happens a lot of the time in Forza, as you will see people fully press the brake, and that is the outcome. The ABS system in Forza actually parallels real life fairly well in that instance, which does surprise me.

I understand not to go full throttle. But I am saying that people running TCS are either in-capable or not confident in running without, thus the assumption they'd be utilizing the TCS rather then trying to modulate the throttle.

Ah, but this is where education would come in better, rather than just saying "Turn TCS/STM off!". The people that go 100% throttle all the time need to be taught to modulate the throttle before turning the assists off, and to apply gently. This is why it is always advisable to begin in the lower classes in the game, and then to work your way up. The slower the car, the more time a person has to learn the correct racing line. As well as how to correctly control the cars themselves. This same approach will work for anyone, with or without the driving aids. Driving in the lower classes in Forza, can really do a lot to showing the issues in your driving. That Honda Civic lap shows me that I still have more practice to do, but then so does everyone. Even the person sitting at number one has things to improve about their driving, even if to outside eyes it doesn't look like it.

The thing we need to get across in these situations, is that they need to be driving and treating the cars as they would in real life. As Forza is a fairly good simulated approximation of real life, all things considered. To the point that the same things that cause issues in a real life in a car, will also cause issues in Forza.

This is the point I am trying to get across.

 

[PJTierney]

@Ialyrn Was that Lotus E23 time set on a wheel or controller? Additionally, do you have a tune available for it? The E23's the only car in the game that I feel I "have" to use TCS on as I haven't found a setup that works for me yet.

 

[Ialyrn]

@Ialyrn Was that Lotus E23 time set on a wheel or controller? Additionally, do you have a tune available for it? The E23's the only car in the game that I feel I "have" to use TCS on as I haven't found a setup that works for me yet.

It was set on a wheel, but I have set similar times with the pad also. It was stock tuned as T10 put it into the game.

I do have a reply of it:


but not as proud of it as I was of my E21 lap in FM5:

 

[GTracer38]

That is actually not true. Using the assists does not make you any slower than those not using them, and that is the misinformation this post has been made to rectify. You are doing exactly the same as the others who bully, browbeat, or pear pressure newer or less confident Forza players; by saying "turn them off, you will be faster". This is exactly what I am getting at.

I am not bullying, browbeating or peer pressuring anyone. As I've said, it is faster to run without them, if you are capable and confident in doing so.

I'm not suggesting that a newer or less confident Forza player should turn everything off thinking it will be an instant 2 second gain (example). I understand that would just frustrate the player and drive them away from the series. As stated in my first post;

I'd raced with them for a long time but I ended up (slowly)'taking them off to try and be quicker in online series that I race in. When I say slowly, I mean I gradually took ABS and TCS off over a 2 year period.

I wouldn't suggest people do something that I wasn't capable of doing myself. That would be stupid of me. But I will tell people that there is a gain to be made if you are willing to take the time to learn racing without assists.
Also, just as a note, I have only been able to consistently run all assists off in Forza and PCARS. The many other racing games I have played, I tend to use ABS.

Turning the assists off will not make someone faster, it would just make it more difficult for them to learn. That is not necessarily the best thing for them, as it hampers the learning process and can promote poor driving practices.

As I stated in my first post;

Having the assists off will be quicker then having them on, if you can manage it. Don't drop them all at once for the sake of winning an Aston. Gradually taking one off at a time, starting in slower cars and working upwards until you are confident in driving without it is the best way.
If you don't feel comfortable taking it off then leave it on as you'll only be making it more difficult and increasing the chance of a mistake for no gain, because you can't commit to the brakes/throttle. That's fine.

If you have remotely been following my posts on this forum, then you will know that I personally run with ABS/TCS/STM turned off.

So do I. What's your point? I'm not speaking about you specifically, I am talking about the use of assists.

And that goes right up to X-class:

Noted in my first post;

TCS gives you the ability to mash down on the throttle without the risk of breaking traction or spinning. However, it also gives you less usable power for a longer period of time then if you were to gently accelerate out of the corner, teetering on the wedge of traction. There's another few tenths you will be able to steal from someone using it.
Note: the current F1 seems to be an exception.

8-gears and seemingly no traction makes it a very difficult car to drive without TCS. There may be some LMP's that fall into the same category but usually run in the R18/TS040/919 so I'm not sure.

Ah, but this is where education would come in better, rather than just saying "Turn TCS/STM off!". The people that go 100% throttle all the time need to be taught to modulate the throttle before turning the assists off, and to apply gently.

I agree to an extent. I believe the best way to learn how to modulate the throttle is to turn TCS off and learn to feel when the car breaks traction and how it reacts to sudden power input. The rumble triggers on the XB1 controller to really be quite good for this too.
That's just a personal preference though.

This is why it is always advisable to begin in the lower classes in the game, and then to work your way up. The slower the car, the more time a person has to learn the correct racing line. As well as how to correctly control the cars themselves. This same approach will work for anyone, with or without the driving aids. Driving in the lower classes in Forza, can really do a lot to showing the issues in your driving. That Honda Civic lap shows me that I still have more practice to do, but then so does everyone. Even the person sitting at number one has things to improve about their driving, even if to outside eyes it doesn't look like it.

The thing we need to get across in these situations, is that they need to be driving and treating the cars as they would in real life. As Forza is a fairly good simulated approximation of real life, all things considered. To the point that the same things that cause issues in a real life in a car, will also cause issues in Forza. This is the point I am trying to get across.

Preaching to the choir.