Driving Without ABS: Is it worth it?

[XSquareStickIt]

I recently got annoyed at how my 2000 RX-7 Type RS' ABS does not fully prevent the wheels from skidding, and the worst part is, it skids to such an extent that the tyres smokes and leaves marks on the road, although not to the point of fully ceasing rotation altogether.

So, I tried driving with the ABS off. While I feel that the ABS really limits a lot of the tyre's potential, I do end up locking the wheels sometimes, which I can admit is a lack of skill on my part. However, I have also ran into other problems, such as the front wheels locking and taking quite a while to unlock even if I ease the braking force, and I can't release the brakes altogether since I'll overspeed into the corner. And, here's the part that almost always gets me when I have to brake from a high speed for a low speed corner: the rear wheels may lock up while the front wheels are still gripping. This causes the rear to slide out, even if you're braking in a straight line. If you tried to counter steer, the car violently rotates to the other direction, seemingly using the front tyres as a pivot.

Here's my question: is it worth it to drive without the ABS? Can a driver drive faster than he could WITH ABS if he's skilled enough? I read in an interview of Peter Wheeler (here), previous owner of TVR, that "a car with anti-lock brakes will always take longer to stop than a car without, as demonstrated by Autocar’s 0-100-0 challenge in previous years. “The only purpose of ABS is to allow steering in wet conditions ,” he maintained".

Also, if it is truly faster to drive without ABS, is there a guide for driving without ABS? And is it feasible to try driving without ABS using a DS3 controller? I've tried using the L and R2 buttons on the controller for better sensitivity, but they just seem to jump from half input to full input for both braking and acceleration. Any help and/or advice is greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[daan]

In a real car without ABS, you can feel through the brake pedal when the wheels are about to lock up. In GT, without a force feedback pedal setup, you cannot.

Because of that, driving without ABS in GT is too much of a lottery in my opinion.

 

[jgancherjr]

In a real car without ABS, you can feel through the brake pedal when the wheels are about to lock up. In GT, without a force feedback pedal setup, you cannot.

Because of that, driving without ABS in GT is too much of a lottery in my opinion.

My problem ^ .. Even with a steering wheel (G27 & DFGT atleast) you don't feel the pressure like a real car ... Daan is there a steering wheel brand with a force feedback pedal setup?

 

[Veyron Tony]

Hello, I drive a modern car and I like all of the aids avail. in GT5, and use them whenever posssible.
I`m a little older than most people on this site and let me tell you, Old School cars are over rated.
I`ve driven 1970`s Dodges and your life was in the wind, they felt like they would take off at any time and the brakes could have been anchors, after you throw it, wait for it to catch.
My car now will take over when my skills have exhausted, it actually saved my life once...

 

[Lion-Face]

In GT5, I don't believe you can go faster without ABS, although I don't think there is a disadvantage to running without it either.

Since the patch that could restrict ABS off, I have run 99% of my races online/offline with ABS off. I don't feel it puts me at a disadvantage when racing, especially after becoming accustomed to it.

There are a few advantages to it, although not really applicable to most random online racing rooms. I feel you can brake later with ABS off, you can really dive into a corner maximizing your braking force. Secondly, you can adjust your tire wear with it. Adjusting your brake bias during the race, you can have much greater control over front/rear tire wear, which you don't get with ABS on.

Disadvantages to it, you can't use the brakes as a 'i messed up, save me' button. ABS is a nice safety net due to how it works in GT5, and you can save your car from some impossible positions with it, brining the car easily back under control.

Also, changes in road heigh, bumps etc, are much easier to manage with ABS on, actually they are no issue with ABS on. You only realise this when you turn ABS off. Try running ABS off around Deep Forest Reverse and you'll see what I mean. Tokyo R246 Forward is another good one. Some corners where you could just slam on the brakes require a more planned approach and I often double brake on the approach so I can get my speed down and not lock up.

 

[Spirithockey61]

No ABS is nothing but a suicide mission on the track unless you use a wheel but even then,it still is TERRIBLE to drive without.

 

[avens]

Hello, I drive a modern car and I like all of the aids avail. in GT5, and use them whenever posssible.
I`m a little older than most people on this site and let me tell you, Old School cars are over rated.
I`ve driven 1970`s Dodges and your life was in the wind, they felt like they would take off at any time and the brakes could have been anchors, after you throw it, wait for it to catch.
My car now will take over when my skills have exhausted, it actually saved my life once...

yep. That's the difference between trying a car for 2 minutes ("omg I look so cool in this") and for a bit longer ("omg gonna die in the next 20 seconds")

As for the question (lol), GT5 has some kind of hidden stability assist when using ABS; it isn't just ABS but pressing the brake pedal is a magic safe button. For that reason, the complete "simulation" experience is only achieved when using a wheel (since with controllers there are also hidden and unmodifiable assists) and with ABS off.

Disable SRF as well.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

To the OP :

No ABS driving is definitely possible, I used DS2 stick from PS2 slim connected via USB converter. It works a lot better than any DS3, I used the face buttons for brakes and accelerate. Add me, join in my lounge when you have the chance, I 'll show you how great driving without ABS is.

In the hands of a good driver, no ABS can be faster than ones with ABS. For example, on current GTA seasonal TT with the Nissan GTR Black Edition, I posted 1:58.2xx without any tuning ( bone stock ), no aids - including ABS and on comfort soft tires all around. With a better driver 1:57.xxx or less is possible. I am sure this is not fast compared with using ABS and sports hard, but not many could match my time or beat it with the same setup using controller.

The secret is DS2 controller. Get it and you'll start having fun driving without ABS instead tortured by the frequent locking up. And remember Brake Balance numbers affect brake strength, running low numbers will increase brake distance when not using ABS, this is less pronounced with ABS aid enabled, as the ABS in the game very peculiar.

 

[eran0004]

I think it's worth it to drive with ABS off, not because it's faster than with ABS on but because it's more fun. The car feels more alive during breaking and you need to think about the balance. You also run the risk of locking the brakes which makes the driving more challenging (and more rewarding when you nail it). I don't think that anyone is faster with ABS off than on I know I'm not faster with ABS off than on, but I think it adds some more depth to the driving experience.

In real life though, any car that hasn't got ABS should not be allowed on public roads.

 

[Morgoth_666]

It's not worth it to drive with ABS on. The game just isn't any fun like that.

It does take a while to get used to GT5's version of ABS-free braking but it's quite do-able and not suicide at all. You just have to pay more attention to the noise of the tires and engine to monitor your braking, then be as smooth as you can with them as well as being very careful about not using too much brake while turning. It can be done on a controller just fine as well, the brakes are much easier to control accurately on the DS3 than the throttle is.

As to a performance advantage... no there is no real lap time benefit to ABS off. You might get very slightly better straight-line braking when you get it perfect, particularly if you can learn to use higher brake pressures, but any advantage there is overwhelmed by ABS's advantage while braking harder and turning at the same time - as well as ABS eliminating the vast majority of braking mistakes for you. That's not to say that using proper braking technique with ABS on isn't helpful, just that you can get away with not doing so a lot more often.

But with ABS off you have to be much more conscious of what the car is doing while decelerating and constantly aware of and planning for the various bumps and undulations on the track. It's frustrating at first but greatly enhances the fun of driving.

I've seen people say ABS can improve your lap times by 1-2 full seconds around an average-length track. I'm not sure if it's that much or not, in my experience in the GT Academy the difference on the Motegi track was only a few tenths and I didn't run extensively with ABS off after getting my best times or I might have come even closer. But then I always run without it and probably don't know all the best tricks to take advantage of ABS. It did make me more consistent which allowed me to focus on shaving tenths a bit easier, although it wasn't very enjoyable to drive that way. That consistency of course is the main advantage of ABS in races.

 

[Totzke8]

In real life though, any car that hasn't got ABS should not be allowed on public roads.

You say that but cars with ABS absolutely suck at braking.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

It's very interesting to hear everyone's opinion on the matter. However, I feel that I need to know what cars and courses you guys drive on without ABS. For example, I feel that the ABS is especially limiting on the Monte Carlo racetrack (Cote D' Azur I believe is the ingame name for it), but it was fine on the Nurburgring save except for a new select corners.

Do you guys also have any advice on how to keep the rear from locking and sliding out while the front grips properly? Or should I be stiffening my suspension setup for the front more if I want to drive ABS-less to prevent too much weight being lifted off the rear wheels?

Also, as I'm still trying to drive without ABS, I keep having trouble changing gears as well. See, my usual button layout is L1 for downshifts and R1 for upshifts. It's really awkward to try to not let the braking force fluctuate as I brake with the L2 button. Perhaps I should go back to my defaults using the X and Square buttons for accelerating and braking. What button layouts do you guys use?

 

[NCRthree]

Lately I've wanted to attempt to have the most realistic experience within GT5's limits. Not concerned about lap times only car's reactions. Now using only cockpit view no HUD. I've always used ABS1 as my only aid. DFGT wheel.

Started experimenting with ABS off with some slower street cars. I have no problem with the brake zones or trail braking but with the cars reaction after lifting off the brake in a slight turn at low speeds even on a flat track. The back end quickly rotates. Snap oversteer. My real life cars (Evo X, S2K, WRX) don't react like that at say 30mph on flat pavement. Have never driven a real race car so that's a different situation. I've had many older cars (old vettes, mustangs, 60's mopars) and yeah, it's an adventure bringing them down quickly!

Maybe it's in the brake settings but I've tried many of the settings that have been posted in the ABS off threads. So I'm on the fence as to what setting is most life like in a modern street car with advanced brake technology. With the low speed brake reaction, it's made me question ABS off as more life like though. Maybe that's just a simplification that's in the ABS off mode but is otherwise more realistic otherwise.

With the default BB being 5/5 that brings up another question as well. Are the cars actual stock braking characteristics fairly accurately represented even though the setting indicates "5/5"? Is that 5/5 just a base figure to tune from and not an across the board setting that indicates every single car in GT5 has the exact same brake bias. I'd hate to think it's that simplified but like I said I haven't done any extensive testing.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I use circle for gas, triangle for brake, I never use ABS in any car or track, been like that since the release day . When you decide to drive without ABS, don't let other aspect of the car dictates how you drive, adapt to the car, brake earlier than usual to learn the finer brake pressure and distance needed in the corners. Try the lowest BB - 0/0, it does still brakes, although very weak, increase front/rear ratio balance for FR/MR/RR - most cars I have are around 4/0, 5/0, 6/1, 7/2 to 9/4 depend on the cars and setup. For FF its a bit different, you want the rear tails out when trail braking to help with corner entry, 2/1, 3/2, 4/2, 7/4. 8/5 sometimes I have 7/8 ( rear bias )

You should add me, we can do some practice laps or races with stock cars, you can stop at each start line pass, adjust the BB, I can follow you then you can try follow me, see where the brake points are. Then after race you can save the replay, study the brake pressure used in every corners, do some comparison, and practice to improve.

I tried wheel driving without ABS, it's easier for me than with the stick mainly due to better steering feedback, better throttle pedal and precision input. I am used to most tracks braking point on most of the cars I've driven, so without feedback on the pedal, all I have to do is to watch for the brake pressure ( the red bar ). With practice , I knew how much the bar is filled until lock ups usually occurs on a given BB number and tires used.

To NCRthree : Default BB 5/5 is just baseline figure for every cars, just like the silly .20 rear toe . It needs to be changed to whatever suits your driving style or to mimic real life car behavior if you are familiar with the real car.

 

[phil bell]

With a controller it can be fun without abs, with a wheel, it just is so much nicer. For me at least.
Without ABS I don't think it will be any faster, my braking distances and times with and without are very similar, only without ABS there's abit more tire wear.

As for the problems you experience, normally you have to go down on the rear brake bias, like F4 R2. Then practice alot, I felt the same way too at first about the rear.
I went from sliding everywhere using road cars to the point where I now race competitively without ABS in a YellowHat GTR.

 

[Joylord]

My experience with no abs has been thrilling and I don’t think I’ll go back to playing the game with abs on. I have a T500RS with a good set of headphones as it is really important to use your senses when playing with no abs as you can’t feel it in the pedal, so the next thing is your hearing and steering. I use cockpit view only and I’ll never be as fast as someone that uses a controller as you’re more likely to respond quicker to over steer or under steer because it’s just a matter of flicking the controller left and right compared to a steering wheel where it takes that little bit longer to correct the car.

For me it’s not about being the fastest but more for my enjoyment (its just another thing to think about really), sometimes I battle to find a good brake balance and some cars just don’t like having abs off, for instance (for me) the Nissan GTR black edition and so on, no matter how low I set the rear brake balance the back still locks up before the front so I guess in my experience not all cars are fun to drive with no abs.

And there are some good points above.

 

[MSTER232]

My problem ^ .. Even with a steering wheel (G27 & DFGT atleast) you don't feel the pressure like a real car ... Daan is there a steering wheel brand with a force feedback pedal setup?

Yes there is. Fanatec.

As for driving without ABS, it's worth it if you can adapt to the style it requires in GT.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

For me it’s not about being the fastest but more for my enjoyment (its just another thing to think about really), sometimes I battle to find a good brake balance and some cars just don’t like having abs off, for instance (for me) the Nissan GTR black edition and so on, no matter how low I set the rear brake balance the back still locks up before the front so I guess in my experience not all cars are fun to drive with no abs.

And there are some good points above.

Is the Nissan GTR Black Edition from the GTA prize that you are having issue with ? It's totally different experience for me, mind you that I used controller, I set my BB around 7/2, 8/3 or 9/4 depend on the tire. During the TT at Toscana, I used comfort soft tires with 7/2 BB, I applied the brake at 60%-70% max during hardest braking at high speed, then decrease the pressure gradually as I got slower for the corner entry, never go above that for high BB numbers, as the strength also increases. My advice is to try from the lowest 0/0 then increase - 1/0, 2/0, 3/0, 4/0 5/0, 6/1, 7/2 and so on. Left foot braking is also very helpful for minor speed correction.

 

[Joylord]

Is the Nissan GTR Black Edition from the GTA prize that you are having issue with ? It's totally different experience for me, mind you that I used controller, I set my BB around 7/2, 8/3 or 9/4 depend on the tire. During the TT at Toscana, I used comfort soft tires with 7/2 BB, I applied the brake at 60%-70% max during hardest braking at high speed, then decrease the pressure gradually as I got slower for the corner entry, never go above that for high BB numbers, as the strength also increases. My advice is to try from the lowest 0/0 then increase - 1/0, 2/0, 3/0, 4/0 5/0, 6/1, 7/2 and so on. Left foot braking is also very helpful for minor speed correction.

Sounds like you know your stuff. I have never really ventured with a brake balance as high as 9/4 for example normally 3/0 anything higher in the front I find my brake pedal pressure causes the front to lock up. But food for thought. Thanks.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Sounds like you know your stuff. I have never really ventured with a brake balance as high as 9/4 for example normally 3/0 anything higher in the front I find my brake pedal pressure causes the front to lock up. But food for thought. Thanks.

Running high BB, all that you need to be aware is the percentage of the red brake bar. The total brake strength from the BB, ie : 8/7 is 15 - tire lock up will usually occur around 65 to 75% bar filled. Try it with very low BB 1/0, you can fill the brake bar until 90% in most cases even until stopping. Experiment with many possible BB combination, take notes of the percentage of the brake bar filled before lock ups. If you are used to this, you will get better braking out of every car, and don't forget to modulate, every time I hear the front tires start squealing or the car losing balance - usually rear starts to shake, I reduce the brake pressure applied on the controller.

To give you and idea how I drive with high BB and modulating the brakes, I posted my video below. I've posted this on other threads, I hope that's okay.

Ferrari 458 Italia, stock, CM tire, Monza, 100% weather, 0% water at start, tire wear, grip real, all assist off.

 

[Woodski_427]

Definitely worth it - for me it makes the game much more involving and really brings the cars alive. The GT5 ABS really gives massive stability.

It's cetainly not 'suicide' to switch it off- the first few goes will feel a bit like that though but it just takes practice.

It looks like Ridox2JZGTE and Joylord have pretty much covered everything above, but for me: I use DS3 most of the time and switched to using triggers for accell and brake, and X O for gears. The triggers give more travel for gas and brake (I could never do the analogue stick for gas/brakes). Occassionaly I get to use my DF Pro and did the sponge ball trick to give the brake pedal some resistance.

In terms of not 'feeling' the pedal, I don't think it makes it a lottery as such, you learn to use other inputs to recognise a wheel locking - hearing it being the main one. Make sure no other driving aids are on though (TC excepted if you are using it).

BB - 5/5 is not driveable, I usually start with a fron/rear of 3/1 which works well enough for most normal cars. A lap will tell you what you need to change pretty quickly.

I have found it's made me a better driver and much more aware of the bumps in the tracks - before I used to be full brakes into the corner with tyres complaining. Now I have to balance the brakes and throttle and can trail brake most cars into a corner after a bit of practice.

I'd say give it go, stick with it for a bit and see how you get on. You can always put ABS on for certain cars or races if you find you aren't as competitive as you were.👍

 

[Morgoth_666]

When using the controller, I've also found it works well to use X and O, or Square and O or X and Square for shifting as I use the triggers for gas and brake too, so L1/R1 are rather tricky. You can also try using the right stick, think of it as a sequential gearshift and pull it back to shift up and forward to shift down(or vice versa if that makes more sense for you).

I'll echo that the 5/5 brake balance makes things very difficult. Whether that's really 50%/50% or if all the cars are the same that way I don't know, but it does feel like there is always way too much rear brake with that setting. I'm not too scientific about setting it though. I generally start an unfamiliar car at 6/3 and adjust it from there as needed. I also tend to adjust it to use higher pressure on higher-grip tires. For FF cars I usually start with 5/5 or 5/4. However if you are not used to driving in GT5 without ABS it would probably be helpful to use less pressure at first to help eliminate frustrating mistakes. I know it was for me.

Probably the hardest thing to get used to is the very small amount of brake you can use while turning, even a little. That's what tends to cause the annoying oversteer that seems to happen after you've released the brake, as the tires are still under more stress than you think so as you transition from brake to throttle it suddenly attacks you. Not sure how realistic that is - it does seem a little excessive perhaps, but that's the way GT5 is.

While learning how it works it is best to really try to isolate as much of your braking into a straight line as possible. It will simply take time to find the careful amount of braking you can get away with when the car isn't perfectly straight. Once you get used to the amount you need to relax the brake as you finish turning or in complex sections and can reliably hit it, you'll be amazed at how much brake(and brake pressure) you can use while still going straight as long as you don't carry it in too deep.

I hope at least some of that makes sense.



I'll also recommend against trying to learn to drive without ABS in a street GTR. It seems like those cars are designed to rely on ABS and I've found them maddeningly difficult to get a handle on without it. Very few other cars give me as much trouble. I've generally needed a very front-heavy bias which can cause understeer but still have difficulty keeping the back settled while turning into the corners, and I also have a hard time predicting which will happen when. While they are supposedly very easy cars to drive, there are probably much better choices for learning braking without ABS.

 

[leeson65]

the front wheels locking and taking quite a while to unlock even if I ease the braking force

This is true to life. You should release the brakes entirely to allow the wheels to start turning again, and then you can get back on the brakes. Semi truck drivers are taught "stab" braking for this purpose.

the part that almost always gets me when I have to brake from a high speed for a low speed corner: the rear wheels may lock up while the front wheels are still gripping.

Yep, that'll happen, and then the car over steers when you go to turn. It'll also over steer after braking hard even without rear brakes (3/0 for example). It seems that so much of the car's weight shifts forward that the rear tires have very little weight on them, and therefore very little traction. I find the best brake setting to reduce this is like 3/2 depending on the car.

Here's my question: is it worth it to drive without the ABS? Can a driver drive faster than he could WITH ABS if he's skilled enough?!

Worth it for fun and honing skills, but in GT5 I don't think you can drive faster without ABS than with. Possibly with a wheel and a ton of practice, but I doubt it. Personally I love driving with ABS off, it is so much more challenging and the car really comes alive. But my lap times suffer.

 

[NCRthree]

Great discussion! Reading several of you guy's posts in the past is what got me interested in ditching the brake assist. I'm gonna have to give it another try now. I'll give it another shot with some of the settings mentioned.

I usually race online in a league but have stepped back to low impact offline driving because of an injury. Basically trying to enjoy GT5's cars in their purest stock settings.

Ideally I would like to drive a car that resembles it's real life counterpart's characteristics as closely as possible within GT5's physics engine. Not adjusting the car to my particular familiar driving style but vice versa. That's why adjusting the B/B to varied settings seems like modding to get an easier car to drive. No different than quickly changing ride height to combat under/oversteer or a LSD adjustment. Sure can't adjust the B/B in my real life Evo X.

So I'm in a dilemma of what actually constitutes "stock" given the assumption GT5's ABS is a brake assist along the lines of SRF. Also assuming 5/5 is actually just that. Maybe I'm just asking for too much realism out of GT5.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The way I see it, BB 5/5 is just another representation of brake strength numbers. Try to drive pre 70's car where in real life they only have drum brakes. Disable ABS, put 10/10 BB, brake lightly around 30% bar, see how much the speed drops, then put BB 0/0, then brake from the same high speed, and surprise, the car will slowly losing speed. So in order to mimic real life actual brake strength and bias, we will need to know the stock real car brake power and bias, then try to translate that into the game. Very hard indeed, as GT5 have no option to upgrade the brakes like in the older games, PD decided that its up to the players choice.

Update : My other finding is that the total numbers of brake balance of 7 or 8 usually means stock brake performance for modern cars ( disc brake ) and for older cars total should be less than 5 ( drum ). More than that is race brakes strength performance. For example : Mitsubishi Galant GTO MR'70 have BB 4/1, Nissan R32 GTR'94 BB 6/2, Ferrari F430 BB 7/2, more than 10 total will make street car brake performance like a race car, which gives another benefit, it can outbrake the same exact car with ABS on. I often race online against ABS drivers, I usually can brake as late as them, sometimes beat them, my BB usually around 8/3 ( Merc CL600 ) to 9/7 ( Cizeta V16T)

 

[NCRthree]

The way I see it, BB 5/5 is just another representation of brake strength numbers. Try to drive pre 70's car where in real life they only have drum brakes. Disable ABS, put 10/10 BB, brake lightly around 30% bar, see how much the speed drops, then put BB 0/0, then brake from the same high speed, and surprise, the car will slowly losing speed. So in order to mimic real life actual brake strength and bias, we will need to know the stock real car brake power and bias, then try to translate that into the game. Very hard indeed, as GT5 have no option to upgrade the brakes like in the older games, PD decided that its up to the players choice.

That's what I figure too. It's hard to get it completely accurate. Trust me, I know all about braking old cars in real life! I daily drove the 68 Charger in my sig for 8 years-drum brakes all around. Cross your fingers and hope for the best! The 70 Charger in GT5 drives like a dream compared to real life-where did all that steering feel come from-wow.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That's what I figure too. It's hard to get it completely accurate. Trust me, I know all about braking old cars in real life! I daily drove the 68 Charger in my sig for 8 years-drum brakes all around. Cross your fingers and hope for the best! The 70 Charger in GT5 drives like a dream compared to real life-where did all that steering feel come from-wow.

For Dodge Charger in GT5, I recommend BB 3/1 or 4/2, 5/0 at most. I tried BB 8/3 on that car, it brakes like a race car, while it was still stock

 

[Woodski_427]

I know you guys are talking about stock cars, but something else to look out for when going no ABS is other peoples tunes. Most setups are done with ABS in mind and they don't always translate.

I suppose an example might be a firm suspension setup. OK with ABS, but subtle bumps can cause weight shift or a wheel to lift off and lock up with no assist. Diff settings too, but I'm not sure Ive got it right in my head

 

[Winters Noble]

I drive without ABS constantly with all levels of cars and tires. I noticed no abs gives you a heightened awareness of when to use the brakes on different lines in a corner. Driving without ABS for a good while will let you gain natural reactions that will show up even when it is in use, improving advantage at the corners. There is no alternative in learning braking skills.

 

[GTPLam]

Hi Ridox do you still host private rooms like you did last time for others to learn ABS OFF? I need help finding the right BB settings for higher class race cars like Super GT (GT500 XANAVI Nismo Z, GT500 ARTA NSX, GT300 Lexus IS, etc.), Le mans endurance race cars (Audi R10 TDI, Peugeot HDi FAP).