Drum brakes, how do?

[Aquarelle]

I really appreciate the responses!

While the drums may not factually be unsafe, I still don't particularly trust them

The reason I'm looking at doing this 'upgrade' (however marginal it may be) is because when I was driving the car around town I was braking for a pedestrian crossing and there was absolutely no braking force until the lower quarter of depression of the pedal.

This is a problem with the pedal travel and the condition of the brake pads, I'm well aware it's not an issue with the rear drums - however since I'm already going to be overhauling the front I figured I may as well replace the drums.

I really trust you guys since you're all a wealth of knowledge - so if you really think replacing the drums is worthless I won't. It's mostly just an experiment and a way to gain more experience working with new things.

 

[Dennisch]

So basically they are turning a simpler system,drums, into a complicated system by adding more parts to it. I am glad I get to work on Euro trucks.

Urie. Get a project car and become self educated. That how I learned most of the stuff I know now. Well that, and working on cars for 13 years now.

Also, You might want to check your front pads, and if they turn out to be ok, you'll need to check your master cylinder.

 

[Aquarelle]

Urie. Get a project car and become self educated. That how I learned most of the stuff I know now. Well that, and working on cars for 13 years now.

Yeah, that's sort of the idea with this Lancer.

Practically all of my education lies in the Engine bay, my issue is with everything else right now.. and without a mentor or any friends that are in the same field to geek out about this stuff with I'm left with asking you guys or putting myself in the hands of strangers on google.. which I'd rather not do.

Like I said, the large majority of the work I'll be doing on the lancer like upgrading the diff and swapping the gearbox is purely educational rather than functional - the positive side effects are just a bonus

 

[Dennisch]

If you have a digital camera, before you take anything apart, take lots and lots of pictures, it can help when you get lost, especially with things like drum brakes, with the springs and stuff.

 

[Aquarelle]

If you have a digital camera, before you take anything apart, take lots and lots of pictures, it can help when you get lost, especially with things like drum brakes, with the springs and stuff.

Cheers! I've heard that tip before. My memory is.. hmm how to describe it?
Like imagine a bunch of photos, but with with blotches of black ink spilt on some of them.

In other words I remember certain things even from years ago with perfect clarity but things from just the previous day could be blank at certain points.

For the sake of clarity of mind I'll follow your advice and photograph my process, might even use some of them to make a thread here once progress begins! I've seen a few threads around here with people documenting their work and it looks fun 👍

 

[opelgt1969]

If you have a digital camera, before you take anything apart, take lots and lots of pictures, it can help when you get lost, especially with things like drum brakes, with the springs and stuff.

Something similar to this would be very helpful:

 

[niky]

In my experience, drums make little difference. Some of our best performers in braking tests over the past three years have had drums on the rear.

I'd go for brake bleeding and perhaps a swap out to more aggressive front pads and rubber. Should make all the difference in the world.

 

[Aquarelle]

In my experience, drums make little difference. Some of our best performers in braking tests over the past three years have had drums on the rear.

I'd go for brake bleeding and perhaps a swap out to more aggressive front pads and rubber. Should make all the difference in the world.

Cheers Niky! It's really helpful getting such professional advice.

I suppose while I'm here I should also ask

This is my first time dealing with a FWD - what would be the best diff to use to prevent under steer?

Do you recommend a particular set of tyres? the rims are stock (14 inch if I remember right) but I don't remember the width off hand..

 

[GTMail]

I'd go for brake bleeding and perhaps a swap out to more aggressive front pads and rubber. Should make all the difference in the world.

This. Brakes don't stop a car, tires do.

 

[Spoil-t]

No, both do. I want you to remove all brakes from a car & stop it. I bet you can't unless you're using a wall or tree.

Sorry for bursting your nonsense bubble, but big rigs already run discs for quite some time now. And that is discs all around.

Sorry, I never saw discs on big rigs before. All in person or TV viewings I only say drum brakes.

On a side note: A 1998 Silverado doesn't work well on air. Damn rusty lines.

 

[TheBook]

I really appreciate the responses!

While the drums may not factually be unsafe, I still don't particularly trust them

The reason I'm looking at doing this 'upgrade' (however marginal it may be) is because when I was driving the car around town I was braking for a pedestrian crossing and there was absolutely no braking force until the lower quarter of depression of the pedal.

This is a problem with the pedal travel and the condition of the brake pads, I'm well aware it's not an issue with the rear drums - however since I'm already going to be overhauling the front I figured I may as well replace the drums.

I really trust you guys since you're all a wealth of knowledge - so if you really think replacing the drums is worthless I won't. It's mostly just an experiment and a way to gain more experience working with new things.

My advice: replace the front brake pads and rotors with good quality stuff. Don't skimp on the cheap pads and whatnot here. Rebuild the calipers if there are any problems (or even if there aren't; it's cheap insurance and you learn something new). Replace the brake fluid and make 100% sure you bleed the brakes well. Then drive a few hundred miles and if the problem hasn't gone away, tear into the rears.

 

[Aquarelle]

My advice: replace the front brake pads and rotors with good quality stuff. Don't skimp on the cheap pads and whatnot here. Rebuild the calipers if there are any problems (or even if there aren't; it's cheap insurance and you learn something new). Replace the brake fluid and make 100% sure you bleed the brakes well. Then drive a few hundred miles and if the problem hasn't gone away, tear into the rears.

Cheers 👍 I'm rather confident the fact I need to push the brakes into the foot well is certainly worn brake pads and possibly pedal travel - I'll investigate into that further once the car is here.

Replacing the rears is just peace of mind (which is proving to be a non issue) and for the experience.

 

[GTMail]

No, both do. I want you to remove all brakes from a car & stop it.

Lol.

BTW what are you be going to use this car for? A new diff seems like a little much for street use unless you experience a lot of snow.

 

[Aquarelle]

BTW what are you be going to use this car for? A new diff seems like a little much for street use unless you experience a lot of snow.

I frequent back roads, in New Zealand these can be incredibly tight with next to no warning. I'd like the upgraded diff because frankly I don't trust the one that comes on an economy car.
And as I've said before, the priority here is experience over practical use. This is mostly an educational project since it's my first time doing major work outside of the engine bay by myself.

---

So I've just found out that the car hasn't been maintained in 5 years and she has no clue how long it's been since it was last worked on before she owned it...

So.. check list:

• All the fluids need changing immediately, likely oil flush as well.
• Oil and air filters
• Gasket, that's going to be atrocious
• Transmission fluid if I can't get a hold of a manual box
• Fresh sparkies

Missing anything that needs immediate attention..?

 

[niky]

Cheers Niky! It's really helpful getting such professional advice.

I suppose while I'm here I should also ask

This is my first time dealing with a FWD - what would be the best diff to use to prevent under steer?

Do you recommend a particular set of tyres? the rims are stock (14 inch if I remember right) but I don't remember the width off hand..

If it's a Lancer, those are probably 185/65R14s, or something similar. A good upgrade would be to 205/55R15s. Any good tires will do.

Understeer is a tricky thing. Can't say that a differential will make much difference. I've got a helical, and that doesn't do anything but prevent single wheel burnouts when exiting a corner. I've driven cars with aggressive torque-biasing LSDs and even e-LSDs and while they, like my humble helical, make for better corner exits, corner entry understeer is still there, in the same proportion, since they don't make engine braking any more effective (well... in my experience, anyway...).

And I don't know if cheap LSDs are available for that particular car. I got lucky and Mazda sells a cheap $600 LSD for my platform. Most people aren't lucky, and unless you've got a Lancer with a 4G63, I doubt you can find anything that will fit. Maybe an FTO LSD or a MIVEC 1.6 (the 160 hp one) LSD will work, depending on your specific drivetrain... but I'm not sure if the performance transmissions are a direct swap for the crummy base straight-fours. I've driven swapped and modified Lancers, but don't know a hell of a lot about the specific compatibility of drivetrain parts.

Best bets, first get the front brakes up to spec, if the pedal is still soggy, clean and adjust the rear drums.

Then, to work on understeer, get more grip, and check the suspension settings. Not knowing the Lancer generation, I'll assume it's not the current one, and probably a Cedia Lancer or earlier. Those have McPhersons up front and a multi-link out back that has a large degree of negative camber under load built into it. And also rather numb steering (as opposed to the Evos, Lancer racks are longer-geared and not as engaging).

If you intend to drive briskly, I'd add a little more camber and toe up front and take some out at the back, though I believe it's non-adjustable. This means buying camber adjustment bolts, which don't cost all that much.

Of course, if you've got nicer tires and the problem mostly goes away, I wouldn't bother touching things that could lead to reduced tire life.

 

[Aquarelle]

If it's a Lancer, those are probably 185/65R14s, or something similar. A good upgrade would be to 205/55R15s. Any good tires will do.

Understeer is a tricky thing. Can't say that a differential will make much difference. I've got a helical, and that doesn't do anything but prevent single wheel burnouts when exiting a corner. I've driven cars with aggressive torque-biasing LSDs and even e-LSDs and while they, like my humble helical, make for better corner exits, corner entry understeer is still there, in the same proportion, since they don't make engine braking any more effective (well... in my experience, anyway...).

And I don't know if cheap LSDs are available for that particular car. I got lucky and Mazda sells a cheap $600 LSD for my platform. Most people aren't lucky, and unless you've got a Lancer with a 4G63, I doubt you can find anything that will fit. Maybe an FTO LSD or a MIVEC 1.6 (the 160 hp one) LSD will work, depending on your specific drivetrain... but I'm not sure if the performance transmissions are a direct swap for the crummy base straight-fours. I've driven swapped and modified Lancers, but don't know a hell of a lot about the specific compatibility of drivetrain parts.

Best bets, first get the front brakes up to spec, if the pedal is still soggy, clean and adjust the rear drums.

Then, to work on understeer, get more grip, and check the suspension settings. Not knowing the Lancer generation, I'll assume it's not the current one, and probably a Cedia Lancer or earlier. Those have McPhersons up front and a multi-link out back that has a large degree of negative camber under load built into it. And also rather numb steering (as opposed to the Evos, Lancer racks are longer-geared and not as engaging).

If you intend to drive briskly, I'd add a little more camber and toe up front and take some out at the back, though I believe it's non-adjustable. This means buying camber adjustment bolts, which don't cost all that much.

Of course, if you've got nicer tires and the problem mostly goes away, I wouldn't bother touching things that could lead to reduced tire life.

It's a 97 "Lancer", it's really just a rebadged Mirage since it was made during the 90s. I believe it's the GLX model.

I'll work on the brakes and tyres first definitely before looking at camber or toe, that's for sure.

I'll have to do some research on the transmission, I could possibly do a 4G63 swap but I really don't think putting more power into a body that was never built for power is particularly wise. If I strengthen the body I could consider it for the experience of an engine swap, I'd need to do more research into the mountings before I even consider that though.

Lastly - I'll keep an eye out for a diff, if I can get one without spending too much I'll definitely do it. The car's free so I'm not too fussed about sinking money into it if it means I'll come out with experience. Better than staring at my text books all day!

 

[niky]

Ah. 97. Double check the bushings and ball-joints. A 4G63T swap is fun, but only in a particular way. Back in the day, at the drags, there were guys who'd bring 4G63T-swapped Lancers with the motors mated to a FWD transmission. Lots of tire smoke, very little forward movement.

A more sensible swap would be a 1.6 MIVEC, which is lovely, and comes with a FWD, LSD-equipped transmission, already. The FTO 2.0 V6 is perhaps the ultimate FWD Lancer motor, 200 hp, 7,500 rpm redline, LSD, sounds like rippling silk, but it's not a swap for the faint of heart.

Even sillier would be the full EVO. buy a junked EVO from Japan and swap everything in. It'll fit the Mirage body, but you'll have to cut the rear suspension mounting out and weld the differential mount from the EVO in. There are shops here that specialize in this kind of swap, but it's scary as hell, in more ways than one.

 

[Aquarelle]

Ah. 97. Double check the bushings and ball-joints. A 4G63T swap is fun, but only in a particular way. Back in the day, at the drags, there were guys who'd bring 4G63T-swapped Lancers with the motors mated to a FWD transmission. Lots of tire smoke, very little forward movement.

A more sensible swap would be a 1.6 MIVEC, which is lovely, and comes with a FWD, LSD-equipped transmission, already. The FTO 2.0 V6 is perhaps the ultimate FWD Lancer motor, 200 hp, 7,500 rpm redline, LSD, sounds like rippling silk, but it's not a swap for the faint of heart.

Even sillier would be the full EVO. buy a junked EVO from Japan and swap everything in. It'll fit the Mirage body, but you'll have to cut the rear suspension mounting out and weld the differential mount from the EVO in. There are shops here that specialize in this kind of swap, but it's scary as hell, in more ways than one.

That's insane!

No as cute as the idea of putting the guts of an evo into a Lancer is, I'd rather not die this year.

The FTO motor sounds good actually.. there's a rear end wrecked one at the junkyard by the harbour actually, I was looking around there the other week looking for spares for my friends Celica.

No idea if it's still there and I don't have the space to store it until the car is in my hands, though it's something to mull over.

But yeah the bushings and ball joints are something I'll be checking, when I last drove it props and VCs felt fine so at least I don't have to worry about that.

I feel all dizzy, it's been far too long since I last got to work on a car, a whole month is no joke D=

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd like the upgraded diff because frankly I don't trust the one that comes on an economy car.

I say this with the greatest respect, but given your "lack of trust" over things like rear drum brakes and differentials, neither of which are things you remotely need to distrust, I'd advise two separate courses of action before you embark on a project to swap things that don't need swapping:

1) Read a good book on how all these car parts actually work and what they do. It sounds like you're picking random parts that sound sub-optimal and wanting to replace them without actually knowing really what you're replacing.

A car is a complicated object and there are plenty of other bits to faff around with, without changing stuff that doesn't need to be changed and that you're unlikely to notice any positive benefit if you do change them.

2) Work on your driving itself. Not trusting drum brakes to stop you or an open diff to handle a crummy road without understeering off it sounds more like an issue of unsuitable driving technique than it does reasons to upgrade a car.

The same thing applies in track driving. Let's say there are two identical cars and two identical drivers. Driver one has upgraded - for sake of arguement - his rear brakes and has fit a limited slip diff. Driver two has had some extra driving tuition. Which do you think will be the quicker, safer driver?

---​

I can appreciate you wanting to learn how to work on your car, but I feel like you're looking at the wrong things here. A basic Mitsubishi Lancer won't really be improved by some rear discs and a locking diff.

It will be improved by a thorough service, a new set of pads for the front discs, a brake fluid change, a clutch fluid change (if it's a hydraulically-operated clutch, which it probably is in that age of Lancer), some new coolant and a jolly good clean.

 

[Aquarelle]

I say this with the greatest respect, but given your "lack of trust" over things like rear drum brakes and differentials, neither of which are things you remotely need to distrust, I'd advise two separate courses of action before you embark on a project to swap things that don't need swapping:

1) Read a good book on how all these car parts actually work and what they do. It sounds like you're picking random parts that sound sub-optimal and wanting to replace them without actually knowing really what you're replacing.

A car is a complicated object and there are plenty of other bits to faff around with, without changing stuff that doesn't need to be changed and that you're unlikely to notice any positive benefit if you do change them.

2) Work on your driving itself. Not trusting drum brakes to stop you or an open diff to handle a crummy road without understeering off it sounds more like an issue of unsuitable driving technique than it does reasons to upgrade a car.

The same thing applies in track driving. Let's say there are two identical cars and two identical drivers. Driver one has upgraded - for sake of arguement - his rear brakes and has fit a limited slip diff. Driver two has had some extra driving tuition. Which do you think will be the quicker, safer driver?

---​

I can appreciate you wanting to learn how to work on your car, but I feel like you're looking at the wrong things here. A basic Mitsubishi Lancer won't really be improved by some rear discs and a locking diff.

It will be improved by a thorough service, a new set of pads for the front discs, a brake fluid change, a clutch fluid change (if it's a hydraulically-operated clutch, which it probably is in that age of Lancer), some new coolant and a jolly good clean.

Cheers mate, and like I said I'm very inexperienced outside the engine bay.. due to reasons already covered.

Though it's not due to intentional ignorance, I most certainly want to learn.

My logic for the drums is due to multiple people telling me how awful and dangerous they are, so the preconception is placed into my head.

After taking in the advice of everyone here I've chosen to not worry about replacing them if the biggest difference is merely going to be cosmetic.

The LSD however - I can't see how a cheap LSD fitted onto an economy car can be of good quality, that's where my concern stems from.


As for my driving ability - this will be my first time owning a car of this type, apart from the lancer the only car I've driven with the FF model is a 69 mini cooper.
My only other experience with FF has been in video games (yeah, I know, not a good measuring stick for reality but I haven't had the best of luck driving them)

I haven't driven the car outside of city driving of yet so I have absolutely no measurement for how much understeer the car suffers from - it's all just pre-conceptions formulated in my head about what I know of FF cars, especially from the late 90s when Mitsubishi was in a bit of financial strife.

Again I'm taking all of this in and I'm eager to learn, with nobody left in my life to discuss this stuff with I'm left with you guys

 

[niky]

The cheap differential won't be an LSD. Your Lancer likely has an open differential. What this means is that if you boot it hard in a corner, the unloaded inside front tire will typically spin all the power away. An LSD will cure that, but again, that's the least of the car's problems in terms of handling.

Either way, good luck on the project.

 

[Aquarelle]

The cheap differential won't be an LSD. Your Lancer likely has an open differential. What this means is that if you boot it hard in a corner, the unloaded inside front tire will typically spin all the power away. An LSD will cure that, but again, that's the least of the car's problems in terms of handling.

Either way, good luck on the project.

Cheers Niky 👍 I really do truly appreciate your advice.

 

[homeforsummer]

As niky says, it'll be an open diff on that car. And I can't see fitting an LSD doing anything for the car's handling particularly.

Usually, an LSD is at its most useful for improving traction when powering out of a corner in a FWD. I expect that Lancer doesn't actually have enough power to really trouble the front wheels, so an LSD will be of limited use.

Really, simply sticking some decent tyres on it will be the best way of reducing whatever understeer it has, and that'll improve most aspects of the car, not least braking. If you wanted to go further you could upgrade the suspension too, which would probably be a worthwhile skill to learn.

 

[Aquarelle]

As niky says, it'll be an open diff on that car. And I can't see fitting an LSD doing anything for the car's handling particularly.

Usually, an LSD is at its most useful for improving traction when powering out of a corner in a FWD. I expect that Lancer doesn't actually have enough power to really trouble the front wheels, so an LSD will be of limited use.

Really, simply sticking some decent tyres on it will be the best way of reducing whatever understeer it has, and that'll improve most aspects of the car, not least braking. If you wanted to go further you could upgrade the suspension too, which would probably be a worthwhile skill to learn.

Hmm.. well, if I were to replace the suspension; is there any brand/type/model whatever the right term is that you would recommend?

It's hardly going to need coil-overs and they're the main suspension type that I'm familiar with. (If to a limited degree)

 

[homeforsummer]

Off the top of my head I'm not sure - not hugely familiar with Lancers. But it's a fairly basic Japanese sedan, so I expect there'll be various parts available and probably many interchangeable with other Mitsubishis too.

 

[Tornado]

No, both do. I want you to remove all brakes from a car & stop it. I bet you can't unless you're using a wall or tree.

Any car made in the past... probably 70 years will have the tires be pretty much the main limiting factor in stopping distances unless you're driving the car at a racetrack. Even the weakest brake system can still lock the tires.