Dynamic BOP solution?

[Phelyx2085]

I wonder if the solution to the apparent balance issues is to implement a sort of dynamic BOP where the game automatically recognizes severely disproportionate use of certain cars and makes very slight daily adjustments to BOP those overpowered cars until an even distribution of car usage has been reestablished.

Just a spontaneous thought I had. Maybe it’s a flawed idea. What do you guys think?

 

[Sloppy Shades]

It's already in the game. It's called boost and is available in lobbies. I avoid it like the plague. Speeding up slower cars during the race to catch up the leader...

 

[Loopdreams]

I don't think he meant throughout the course of a race but rather some sort of automatic nerfing system for cars that dominate the leaderboards. I don't think it needs an algorithm, though. I just think that PD need to take their fingers out of their bums and sort it out a bit more regularly than they currently are doing.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I wonder if the solution to the apparent balance issues is to implement a sort of dynamic BOP where the game automatically recognizes severely disproportionate use of certain cars and makes very slight daily adjustments to BOP those overpowered cars until an even distribution of car usage has been reestablished.

Just a spontaneous thought I had. Maybe it’s a flawed idea. What do you guys think?

It's already in the game. It's called boost and is available in lobbies. I avoid it like the plague. Speeding up slower cars during the race to catch up the leader...

Boost is not what the OP is suggesting and it could work. Basically, the devs already adjust BoP (we see it in the updates). That process can be automated by having the BoP adjusted daily so that cars at the top and bottom of the time sheets are brought in line with the median.

Here's the difference. Boost slows down the leader and speeds up the stragglers within a race. It's often referred to as a rubber band or the rubber band effect and it occurs within the race. What the OP is suggesting is a BoP adjustment outside of the race.

Basically, every 24 hours, check laps times and usage from the Dailies. Top cars (the ones everyone will be using) get a 1% power drop and a 1% weight gain. Bottom cars (the ones nearly no one will be using) get a 1% power boost and a 1% weight drop. Anything within a median window would be left unchanged. Eventually, everything will equal itself out.

I don't think he meant throughout the course of a race but rather some sort of automatic nerfing system for cars that dominate the leaderboards. I don't think it needs an algorithm, though. I just think that PD need to take their fingers out of their bums and sort it out a bit more regularly than they currently are doing.

An Algorithm works 24/7 and will be ever present. It's get the job done faster than a designer will. Also, it would likely take the same amount of time to create the algorithm and it would take a designer to do one pass on the cars (and probably not really fix the problem).

 

[NJ72]

It's already in the game. It's called boost and is available in lobbies. I avoid it like the plague. Speeding up slower cars during the race to catch up the leader...

That's not what it is at all...

What the OP is suggesting is an AI review of the BOP, such that if all the leaderboards are occupied by a single car then it tweaks that car or boosts the others (I shall deem this Auto-nerfing - copyright NJ72, 2017 ;P ).

Not an ideal option, as a car could just be popular for no reason other than people like the way it looks. It's a good idea in principle, though.

 

[pedrocor]

That's not what it is at all...

What the OP is suggesting is an AI review of the BOP, such that if all the leaderboards are occupied by a single car then it tweaks that car or boosts the others (I shall deem this Auto-nerfing - copyright NJ72, 2017 ;P ).

Not an ideal option, as a car could just be popular for no reason other than people like the way it looks. It's a good idea in principle, though.

Yeah, in a utopic world where the BoP was well balanced, I guess Ferrari and Porsche maybe the most common choices to players. So they would be nerfed by popularity.

 

[Sloppy Shades]

Sorry I was being kind of sarcastic in a non judgmental way. I understood entirely the concept of BoP vs the boost thing. The idea of a game self-regulating itself depending on results sounds way too much like level scaling in an RPG. Which I loathe. Don't like a car? Get 10 alien buddies to post great times all at once. Hey presto it gets nerfed.

 

[LordDrift]

I tell you what. I was feeling a little less than having been consistently 3-5 seconds outside the top 10 times. Then on Sunday I sucummed to the spell of the magane and dusted off one I had been gifted. I was instantly within 1 second of the top 10. I pounded beer, and smashed the can on my forehead, I was once again a man.

 

[Phelyx2085]

Correct. I didn't mean boosting during race (or rubberbanding, as it is sometimes called) -- It would really be a daily automatic review of the data that happens separately from the patches. And the adjustments would be gradual. NOT: Everyone is driving car XYZ, therefore slash power in half. INSTEAD (for example): reduce power/grip by a percentage (or fraction thereof) on a daily basis until it is back in balance. This process may take several days. But eventually you will have a balance.

 

[Phelyx2085]

Sorry I was being kind of sarcastic in a non judgmental way. I understood entirely the concept of BoP vs the boost thing. The idea of a game self-regulating itself depending on results sounds way too much like level scaling in an RPG. Which I loathe. Don't like a car? Get 10 alien buddies to post great times all at once. Hey presto it gets nerfed.

Well, it would take more than 10 people to have any effect at all on this concept. I'm talking all top 10 track times in every region worldwide

 

[NJ72]

THEN I SHALL PREVAIL IN MY NOT-VERY-POPULAR ASTON MARTIN! MUHUHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Phelyx2085]

Not an ideal option, as a car could just be popular for no reason other than people like the way it looks. It's a good idea in principle, though.

It wouldn't be based on popularity, but solely on actual track times.

 

[Outspacer]

Basically, every 24 hours, check laps times and usage from the Dailies. Top cars (the ones everyone will be using) get a 1% power drop and a 1% weight gain. Bottom cars (the ones nearly no one will be using) get a 1% power boost and a 1% weight drop. Anything within a median window would be left unchanged. Eventually, everything will equal itself out.

24 hours a) doesn't really give enough data, since BoP really should be worked out across multiple tracks, and b) with minimum 1% changes that often would be changing it too much once it got close.

That said, it wouldn't have to be anything like perfect to be far better than it is now in Gr4!

The idea of a game self-regulating itself depending on results sounds way too much like level scaling in an RPG.

Hardly the same, since the cars would still mostly be well within +/- 10% of their 100% tune.

 

[NJ72]

It wouldn't be based on popularity, but solely on actual track times.

But if BOP is 100% perfect and all cars are equal, popularity will affect the leaderboard. If everybody likes the ferrari because it's red, then it will dominate times through no mechanical advantage - Auto-Nerf will then blatt it and it will then be underpowered.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yeah, in a utopic world where the BoP was well balanced, I guess Ferrari and Porsche maybe the most common choices to players. So they would be nerfed by popularity.

That's why I said there would need to be a median window, like an average of 0.5 seconds a lap. You could also throw out times based on Driver rating. Only A/S times are taken into account. Low level driver times can be ignored. We are all pretty much in agreement that any decent driver can go several seconds faster in a Megane than almost anything else. If the difference were 0.5 seconds, no one would really care.

 

[Outspacer]

But if BOP is 100% perfect and all cars are equal, popularity will affect the leaderboard. If everybody likes the ferrari because it's red, then it will dominate times through no mechanical advantage - Auto-Nerf will then blatt it and it will then be underpowered.

Of course it will never be perfect. Different tracks will still give different cars advantages, and people will still want to use the fastest. Any automatic system is likely to end up oscillating a bit, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Voodoovaj]

24 hours a) doesn't really give enough data, since BoP really should be worked out across multiple tracks, and b) with minimum 1% changes that often would be changing it too much once it got close.

It would be an ongoing feature to keep the cars inline. The review only occurs every 24hours. And, again, MEDIAN WINDOW where no change occurs.

No one is going to scream bloody murder if a particular car is 1 second faster around any one track. 0.5-1 second would be an acceptable median in my opinion.

Right now, we have 3-4 seconds of difference. That was the difference in my lap times between the Megane in Brazil and the Lexus in Brazil.

 

[Outspacer]

It would be an ongoing feature to keep the cars inline. The review only occurs every 24hours. And, again, MEDIAN WINDOW where no change occurs.

No one is going to scream bloody murder if a particular car is 1 second faster around any one track. 0.5-1 second would be an acceptable median in my opinion.

Right now, we have 3-4 seconds of difference. That was the difference in my lap times between the Megane in Brazil and the Lexus in Brazil.

24 hours means info from only one track for each class, so once they get close it would almost always be wrong for the next track, is what I was getting at. (I don't think any info from the FIA races or lobbies would be useful, so it's only the dailies). Updating BoP once or twice a week would perhaps avoid that.

 

[CConspicuous]

I'm beginning to think that Polyphony should have worked with SRO instead of FIA.... compared to SRO, the FIA's track record with BOP'ing cars is highly questionable:

2011: Accidentally made the BMW M3 uncompetitive for Le Mans as a knee-jerk to them going flatout through Eau Rouge at Spa
2012-2013: Accidentally nerfing the Aston Martin's and Corvettes too heavily
2015: Made the 911 RSR too uncompetitive
2016: Knee-jerked to Corvette topping testing, made them useless for Le Mans, nerfed Ferrari, got fooled by Ford sand-bagging, accidentally made Aston Martin OP towards the end of the season.

^ This has probably rubbed off on PD...

 

[Voodoovaj]

24 hours means info from only one track for each class, so once they get close it would almost always be wrong for the next track, is what I was getting at. (I don't think any info from the FIA races or lobbies would be useful, so it's only the dailies). Updating BoP once or twice a week would perhaps avoid that.

As I said though, only implement a 1% change to power and/or weight. That way the change is not so massive that the cars are totally useless on a different track. Some cars will be naturally faster on a track that suits them and a small advantage should not be tuned out.

The algorithm could even alternate between power and weight changes so that the adjustments are gradual.

I don't think anyone would appreciate being dominant one day in a Megane only to find themselves at the back of the pack the next day. Changes need to happen gradually and almost imperceptibly. The algorithm could even be a feature of the BoP, retrieving data anytime BoP is on in the same way Spotify is always tracking your listening habits.

It didn't get my listening habits correct after one day, but it's pretty scary accurate now.

 

[LordDrift]

Of course it will never be perfect. Different tracks will still give different cars advantages, and people will still want to use the fastest. Any automatic system is likely to end up oscillating a bit, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Track advantage I have no problem with. What can't happen is one car demoralizing another on a straightaway draft be damned. You pull a little but not nevereding like the magane does and still be considered balanced. An it's just as quick in the corners.

 

[Outspacer]

As I said though, only implement a 1% change to power and/or weight. That way the change is not so massive that the cars are totally useless on a different track. Some cars will be naturally faster on a track that suits them and a small advantage should not be tuned out.

The algorithm could even alternate between power and weight changes so that the adjustments are gradual.

I don't think anyone would appreciate being dominant one day in a Megane only to find themselves at the back of the pack the next day. Changes need to happen gradually and almost imperceptibly. The algorithm could even be a feature of the BoP, retrieving data anytime BoP is on in the same way Spotify is always tracking your listening habits.

It didn't get my listening habits correct after one day, but it's pretty scary accurate now.

And all I'm saying is that 1% is quite a lot when adjusted every day, based on limited data from one track. There's only a limited number of those 1%, a lot of cars might be within +/- 5%, so it would be trying to settle on the best out 10 or so steps... effectively it's more like a 10% change in that case.

If you spent a day listening to a new song a lot, you wouldn't want Spotify to read too much into that, would you?

It's a bit pointless arguing over the details when we both think it could work one way or another I also think most the arguments against doing it could be addressed... except the one that questions whether PD could implement well. They make some strange decisions!

 

[Veinz]

Seems entirely too complicated to implement. Balancing the BOP will be a lengthy process but I believe it will work out in the end.

 

[NJ72]

But what if only really bad drivers choose to drive a certain car? Suddenly UBER BOOST! lol

 

[LOCKED1976]

An issue I could see with this is a less popular car getting repeatedly buffed, because no one drives it, so it goes unnoticed for a while. Then one decent driver decides to give it a whirl for fun and oops, it's seconds faster. It could create an endless cycle where every week or maybe even just every few days there is a new OP car. I guess that might be better than weeks of Megane dominance though.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Seems entirely too complicated to implement. Balancing the BOP will be a lengthy process but I believe it will work out in the end.

On the contrary, it seems super easy to implement now that we've talked through it.

I would FAR FAR FAR much rather have a self leveling system than the current system of some random dude in Japan looking at some unknown data set and making arbitrary changes.

An Algorithm would be future proof, work for the life span of the game, and keep everything in check for all cars and all tracks (as long as BoP is on).

We've been dealing with this latest bug for a week. This algorithm could have been written in that time. We'd never have to deal with it again.

 

[Phelyx2085]

But if BOP is 100% perfect and all cars are equal, popularity will affect the leaderboard. If everybody likes the ferrari because it's red, then it will dominate times through no mechanical advantage - Auto-Nerf will then blatt it and it will then be underpowered.

Excellent point. However, Wouldn't it be great if we had to solve a dilemma like that?

 

[Phelyx2085]

I would FAR FAR FAR much rather have a self leveling system than the current system of some random dude in Japan looking at some unknown data set and making arbitrary changes.

I'd hope this person be AT LEAST a PD employee.

 

[Nando deBem]

You guys are trying to sell this idea and can’t even explain it properly. Still, you say it would be easy to implement.
Every time I read something like “it’s just ...”, that's not the case at all.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You guys are trying to sell this idea and can’t even explain it properly. Still, you say it would be easy to implement.
Every time I read something like “it’s just ...”, that's not the case at all.

Well then, here you go, this is what I would have given to a programmer back in the day.

There's a database of times and cars taken from the A/S and B/S groups. From the time database, create an average lap time for that day for each car.

Within a category, determine the median time.

If an average lap is more than 1 second faster than the median, reduce power by 1% for the next day. If the power was reduced the previous day, increase the weight by 1%.

If an average lap is more than 1 second slower than the median, increase power by 1%. If the power was increased the previous day, decrease the weight by 1%.

Done. It doesn't solve anything immediately, but letting this run will keep everything in check.

But if BOP is 100% perfect and all cars are equal, popularity will affect the leaderboard. If everybody likes the ferrari because it's red, then it will dominate times through no mechanical advantage - Auto-Nerf will then blatt it and it will then be underpowered.

In the above system, popularity won't make a difference. If a car doesn't get used, there's no change. If the global average is not great than 1 second, nothing will change. The only way it could affect it is if all the best drivers on the planet chose the same car while, at the same time, all the lesser people chose a different car.

When you take 10000 lap times and average them out, the alien outlier times will become far less meaningful and what you are left with is a consistent disparity.

And, even if popularity affects the times and a car gets unnecessarily nerfed, people will gravitate toward other cars to go faster and those nerfed cars will eventually be restored.