Earth Day and Environmentalism

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Duke

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Yesterday was Earth Day. I wanted to post this thread at that time, but I was just too busy.

On my way to work, I was listening to a folk music program on the local college radio station. The first song they played ran something like this:

Give me the warm power of the Sun;
Give me the everflowing power of a waterfall;
Give me the restless power of the wind;
Give me the comfort of a wood fire;
But take away your atomic poison power from the world.

I'm really not making that up - the last line is verbatim from the song.

Is it just my impression, or is the Green/Environmentalist movement fundamentally rooted in total denial? What their whole sentiment boils down to is the unspoken desire to pretend that there are many fewer humans than actually exist - preferably none, in some cases.

While the chorus of that song is filled with all the artificial simplicity and sweetness of a Thomas Kincaid painting, there are some facts that they fundamentally just ignore:

1) Solar energy is a burgeoning technology. It has great promise, but at the moment, that's all it has. The world's largest privately-owned manufacturer of solar panel systems is located a few miles from my house. They're doing amazing things - but the technology is still 50 years from making a significant impact in global energy use.

2) Hydroelectric power requires dams - BIG dams - and last I heard, those self-same environmentalists were screaming about the destruction of habitat caused by building them and flooding the valleys above. Which is worse?

3) Wind power is a great idea, like solar. Too bad it's 50 years behind that - though maybe it will get there eventually.

4) Burning wood - particularly in the quantities required to heat the homes of, say, New York or London - would cause air pollution on a scale that makes the LA freeway look like a giant air freshener. Not to mention the deforestation - where do they think all those friggin' trees come from?

5) In addition to all this - in the last line, the singer rails against the one power source that just might give us what we need long enough for solar, wave-motion, and wind power to make a difference! So instead of clean - and safe when properly designed - nuclear power, she wants us to rely on ever more burning of hydrocarbons and ever more pollution. Has she forgotten that something needs to generate the electricity to charge her electric car? Or is it just that it doesn't fit into her picture-perfect little pre-industrial fantasy world, so it simply gets denied?

It really seems to me that, fundamentally, this type of person wishes we could live in some sort of 18th-century agrarian community, with the implied (but unacknowledged) desire to reduce our population numbers to that level. How this is supposed to occur is never addressed - it's just supposed to happen, and it's probably the government's job to magically do it. At any rate it's someone's job to make everything perfect.

I'm all for avoiding excessive environmental destruction - of the sort formerly practiced in the West a hudred years ago, in the ex-Soviet Union a few decades ago, and still going on today in mainland China, among other places. But this simpleminded knee-jerk "Earth First"ism is simply not reality.

Any thoughts?
 
i was more worried about the doctors saving my thumb (they put a pin through it to keep it in place)

penn&teller did a good story on this or somthing related to it on Bull****.
 
1) Solar energy is a burgeoning technology. It has great promise, but at the moment, that's all it has. The world's largest privately-owned manufacturer of solar panel systems is located a few miles from my house. They're doing amazing things - but the technology is still 50 years from making a significant impact in global energy use.
There is no reason solar power should be in the underdeveloped state it is, other than money. The funding is not there because the established (and corrupt) power suppliers keep it that way. We made it to the moon in less than a decade. We could be “solar dependent” in as much time if the people who control the funding were motivated.

3) Wind power is a great idea, like solar. Too bad it's 50 years behind that - though maybe it will get there eventually.
Same as above. We have bombs and missles that can fly up your nose but we still can’t harness the limitless power in wind. It speaks volumes about what is considered valuable.

2) Hydroelectric power requires dams - BIG dams - and last I heard, those self-same environmentalists were screaming about the destruction of habitat caused by building them and flooding the valleys above. Which is worse?
Definitely not a preferred method of producing power, but clean. Hydroelectric power is acceptable on a case-by-case basis. The Three Gorges dam in China is a non-environmental tragedy. Thousands of years of history flooded forever. Millions of displaced Chinese… a re-engineered populace.

4) Burning wood - particularly in the quantities required to heat the homes of, say, New York or London - would cause air pollution on a scale that makes the LA freeway look like a giant air freshener. Not to mention the deforestation - where do they think all those friggin' trees come from?
Maybe they were just talking about camping or something. As an amateur nature boy myself, I often fantasize about hanging out at the campfire in the mountains. I doubt anyone with a brain would seriously believe the world could be powered by wood. But this brings up another of your observations…
Is it just my impression, or is the Green/Environmentalist movement fundamentally rooted in total denial? What their whole sentiment boils down to is the unspoken desire to pretend that there are many fewer humans than actually exist - preferably none, in some cases.
I couldn’t agree more. But I still think the industrialized world could try a lot harder. I still believe that the industrialized world is currently transforming itself into the technological world, or the digital world. In this world there is no reason why we can’t thrive, using the Earth in a sustainable and responsible way. But maybe the economic structure will need to change first. It could be argued that is happening already.

In addition to all this - in the last line, the singer rails against the one power source that just might give us what we need long enough for solar, wave-motion, and wind power to make a difference! So instead of clean - and safe when properly designed - nuclear power…
Nuclear power is good, although risky. The trick with it is to be safe and responsible. And the general public also has to be properly informed with factual information. People are irrationally afraid of it. Their fear is misplaced. They should really be afraid of (and enraged at) human irresponsibility and greed. Nuclear technology needs to be seen as a gift to our species, and a huge responsibility. Like everything, it is either a benefit or a detriment, depending how it’s used.

It really seems to me that, fundamentally, this type of person wishes we could live in some sort of 18th-century agrarian community, with the implied (but unacknowledged) desire to reduce our population numbers to that level. How this is supposed to occur is never addressed - it's just supposed to happen, and it's probably the government's job to magically do it. At any rate it's someone's job to make everything perfect.
They renounce everything great about our species; rather than confronting the future with all the consciousness, conscience, and intellect we alone bear, they prefer to run away to the past. In short, they hate humanity. They want something that can never (again) be and cry about it, annoying you and me (can we make that a folk song?)

Think survival of the fittest. Their kind is not fit. Those who clearly see the problems and realistically approach the solutions will inherit the future of our species, not a bunch of dirty hippies. It will happen through technology, not in spite of it.

But I do believe we could realistically be trying harder. And I do wish I saw more evidence of a general motivation toward the inevitable advancement and evolution of our civilization. They reasons why I do not see this go beyond the scope of this topic, though.

Thanks for a great topic Duke.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke

It really seems to me that, fundamentally, this type of person wishes we could live in some sort of 18th-century agrarian community, with the implied (but unacknowledged) desire to reduce our population numbers to that level. How this is supposed to occur is never addressed - it's just supposed to happen, and it's probably the government's job to magically do it. At any rate it's someone's job to make everything perfect.

I'm all for avoiding excessive environmental destruction - of the sort formerly practiced in the West a hudred years ago, in the ex-Soviet Union a few decades ago, and still going on today in mainland China, among other places. But this simpleminded knee-jerk "Earth First"ism is simply not reality.

Any thoughts?

Strangely, people on the other side of the spectrum aren't as extreme as people on the left, which want no harm to ever be done to the environment again, ever, in the Earth's future. Right-wing nutcases merely want digging and drilling and a world without boundaries. Obviously, both sides are fairly out-of-mainstream by their very nature. Compromise is what seems to be occurring now (and it appears to be a compromise skewed vaguely to the right) but we'd better start seriously changing our ways because we are running out of just about every resource we commonly use.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
LOL,.. actually I could'nt give a damn about the tree's,... I just wanna legally grow my own so I can save myself $200 a week :lol:
Just don't tell anyone. Then it's almost as good as legal *1. We grow pot in the livingroom.. Liiiike a Glooove :D

*1 Kinda like speeding. It's allowed as long as you don't get caught....
 
You would think that an intelligent species would have evolved well enough to know that by destroying its enviroment it is destroying it means to sustain itself.
Or does it speak less to the intelligence of the creature and more to its arrogance ? I'm inclined to put my vote in the arrogance column.
 
Originally posted by ledhed
You would think that an intelligent species would have evolved well enough to know that by destroying its enviroment it is destroying it means to sustain itself.
Or does it speak less to the intelligence of the creature and more to its arrogance ? I'm inclined to put my vote in the arrogance column.

What happens when the enviornment starts destroying us though? (example: the next ice age)
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
LEGALIZE HEMP!
:D


Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
LOL,.. actually I could'nt give a damn about the tree's,... I just wanna legally grow my own so I can save myself $200 a week :lol:
Man $200 a week uh? All you need is a local Homeboy Depot and about $200 to get started. It works pretty nice and after about three generations, 1.6 grams can lay out 7 people around 6'1" 180lbs and seasoned vetrans of praying to the Leaf.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Humans have lived through several ice ages already. We'll be fine.
When, I don't beleive humans lived through more then 1 of them and if I am correct the type of humans that were around during the time were not the brightest either.
 
I think what he was saying was that Neanderthals went through it and homo sapeins have never been through one
 
Originally posted by milefile
If that's what he was saying then he's wrong.
When was the last ice age and when did homo sapeins go through one? I am only going off the memory I have from high school here, which is really poor, but I do remember that homo sapeins came after the ice age and Neanderthals went through it and possibly survived. Like I said though I am going off real crappy memory here.
 
Originally posted by milefile
I wanted to know if you were saying Neanderthals survived the last ice age and Homosapiens didn't.


My point was that the neandertal was adpted to that harsh enviornment,... survived it for 250,000 years until we ran em north to were virtually no creatures could survive.

We could make it,.... but I dont think normal society could.

Recently, a scientific article was written in the GR press, explaining global warmings effect on the Michigan climate in the next 100 years. Since records began, west michigan averages 90 inches of snowfall per year, the majority being lake effect snow.

The report stated that in 50 years, we'll have good golf in november (usually 30's by then). And in 100 years, lake effect now will be virtually non-existant. Now, if all that is gonna happen that fast, imagine what will happen in 200, let alone 300.

The polart caps will begin to melt and dilute the earths natural airclimate control system (can explain in further detail if need be). Basically, the last 10,000 years of stable weather, has been a gift from this earth, considering it 's far-and-away, the most stable 10,000 years in the history of the planet. Not to mention the moon is very slowly leaving our orbit, causing a greater instability in the axis we rotate on. It's only a matter of time before we lose the momentum of the moons garvitational pull, and end up spinning out of control. Not to hard to figure out what happens then ;) All this will happen before we can destoy it ourselves.
 
When was the last ice age and when did homo sapeins go through one? I am only going off the memory I have from high school here, which is really poor, but I do remember that homo sapeins came after the ice age and Neanderthals went through it and possibly survived. Like I said though I am going off real crappy memory here.


Homosapiens emerged between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago. The last ice age was about 11,000 years ago, not including "the little ice age," which was only about 400 years ago.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Homosapiens emerged between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago. The last ice age was about 11,000 years ago, not including "the little ice age," which was only about 400 years ago.


Huh,.... I coulda sworn it was only 60,000. :confused:

Anyone else know?
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
My point was that the neandertal was adpted to that harsh enviornment,... survived it for 250,000 years until we ran em north to were virtually no creatures could survive.

We could make it,.... but I dont think normal society could.

Recently, a scientific article was written in the GR press, explaining global warmings effect on the Michigan climate in the next 100 years. Since records began, west michigan averages 90 inches of snowfall per year, the majority being lake effect snow.

The report stated that in 50 years, we'll have good golf in november (usually 30's by then). And in 100 years, lake effect now will be virtually non-existant. Now, if all that is gonna happen that fast, imagine what will happen in 200, let alone 300.

The polart caps will begin to melt and dilute the earths natural airclimate control system (can explain in further detail if need be). Basically, the last 10,000 years of stable weather, has been a gift from this earth, considering it 's far-and-away, the most stable 10,000 years in the history of the planet. Not to mention the moon is very slowly leaving our orbit, causing a greater instability in the axis we rotate on. It's only a matter of time before we lose the momentum of the moons garvitational pull, and end up spinning out of control. Not to hard to figure out what happens then ;) All this will happen before we can destoy it ourselves.

Most of the time these things are cited they are over simplified. It is undeniable that Homosapiens is altering the global climate. For all of our history we have altered the world in many ways. I don't find this so frieghtening, though.

In our future I can't realistically see a seamless continuity of gradual population growth and development. At some point there will have to be a fissure where we will ram headlong into a new world and a new geological/climatic reality. We happen to be the lucky humans who live on it's cusp.

I have full faith that humanity is in the universe to stay (even if we evolve into Homo______(?)), and will be living on Earth for a long time to come. It's like I said before, we will thrive through technology, not inspite of it. Our creation of a technological world has barely scratched the surface, it is quite simply necessary for our survival... or we go the way of the Neanderthal.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Huh,.... I coulda sworn it was only 60,000. :confused:

Anyone else know?

Some paleoanthropologists call early Homosapiens Homoerectus. Either way they were not modern humans. Modern humans are probably even more recent than 60,000 years. I have seen 30,000 cited before. The tricky part is deciding exactly what makes the difference.

Either way, Homosapiens lived through the last ice age.
 
This graph of the history of earth's average climate is not as detailed as others I've seen, but it gives a general idea. As you can see, the amount of warming the Earth is undergoing right now is well within the normal historical range of fluctuation. Further, these changes can happen almost over night, and stay that way for a million years, which, in geological time, is a mere minute.

Yes. The world will be very different. I wish I could look at a globe from 5000 (or more) years in the future to see how the land masses will be shaped differently due to rising and falling sea levels. Maybe there will be new islands in the Pacific.

Ever see the film AI. Remember NYC?
 

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notice how short the previous cool stages are compaired to now? And notice the drastic change points (spikes int he graph)? This gives me the impression that we are extremely close to something huge. Though we wont see it's full effect in our lifetime, imagine what the living conditions will be like in Arizona in 200 years, if michigan will be warm enough to not get snow ;) On top of that, who knows what oceanic effects will occur. Michigan may just be under water :eek: and anywhere within 200 miles of the equator will be virtually unihabitable.

Basically, on topic, it is important to recognize the effects that C02 have on the planet and so on,... but beyond those issues, we have something much larger to worry about, and it's completely out of our control.


AI? Long time ago,... can you refresh my memory?
 

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