Engine sounds in danger?

[mister dog]

With F1 and LMP1 racers setting the tone of benchmark technology; and more and more cars going electric and hybrid in general; are the great engine sounds we know in motorsports in danger? Will i take my grandkids to races and would they hardly hear the cars of the future passing along unlike what we experienced back in our day, sending shivers down our spines?

Example; compare the sounds of these glorious beasts:



To the Le mans winner of this year:



My question to you; will combustion engines still be socially acceptable in 20 years time; and will motorsport in general sound more numb because of new technologies?

 

[Clark]

The sounds aren't as rich, raw or as varied as the were but we still get some good 'uns.

 

[Bo]

There are some beautiful sounds out there. This is the start of a new era for motorsport however, so we'll have to accept sounds changing.

 

[Silver-Sylph]

The demise started when Audi started using the turbo diesel at le mans.

 

[Carbonox]

Good thread. Personally, I believe car sounds are one of the essential parts of motorsports, especially if you're watching a race from the stands. And I can tell you, the entire feeling goes away if the race cars once known as raw beasts begin to sound like whiny go-karts.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

http://jalopnik.com/the-electric-future-of-motorsport-sounds-like-mind-inva-1599836615

(click on the link and watch the Instagram video)

 

[mister dog]

The sounds aren't as rich, raw or as varied as the were but we still get some good 'uns.

That's because we are still in a transition period and with these hybrids the normal engine produces most of the sound still. With battery technology evolving in 10 years or less i bet cars will be able to run large distances on pure electricity, and changeable battery packs might also be available for endurance racing. With the torque advantage of electrical power they will probably all go this way.

It might also happen that the cars of the road will be fully electrical by that time, and dirty loud combustion engines will be deemed bad for the environment and dangerous. Through public opinion racecars would then avoid the old technology and embrace the new one, which will mean that the scenario of no more inspiring engine sounds in racing when we're old geezers might just come true.

 

[TenEightyOne]

OP, yes. Sound requires energy to create, for example this year's F1 is wasting much less energy on sound than ever before.

Times change and, if we want to be taking our grandchildren to motor racing events, motorsport has to change too. @Carbonox, I disagree about the sound. It's evocative and I enjoy it but the show is really about the attitude/pitch of the cars rather than the sound they're making... in my opinion

In general I guess most manufacturers are driven by road targets; in most markets companies have to produce a range of vehicles that hit a given carbon emission target on average. Therefore eco-tech is more important to them than ever before and it seems logical to use motorsport as a tech-showcase and as a tech-driver.

The excitement caused by the all-electric Harley amongst my colleague engineers has been phenomenal, most people thought they'd miss the engine sound until they saw the onboard video and heard the bike/tyres/wind... a lot of them are sold on the idea now, except a few Germans. Who instead showed the BMW electric bike and explained why it was better in every single inscrutable, empty soulless detail.

Overall we'll see the general attitude change at the same time as we see more and more electrical motorsport. One day we'll tell our grandchildren about the good old days when we had to wear ear defenders to protect against aural damage from the raucous, poisonous combustion inside the steel "engine".

 

[Carbonox]

OP, yes. Sound requires energy to create, for example this year's F1 is wasting much less energy on sound than ever before.

Times change and, if we want to be taking our grandchildren to motor racing events, motorsport has to change too. @Carbonox, I disagree about the sound. It's evocative and I enjoy it but the show is really about the attitude/pitch of the cars rather than the sound they're making... in my opinion

Times may change, but looking at the golden era of most motorsports around the late 90's and early 2000's, I don't exactly know why anyone would ever have welcomed changes from that. First we started getting artificial racing (a good example of which is the Cha$e, double wide restarts and phantom debris cautions in NASCAR, not to mention double points in F1 season finale now), but no, that's not enough. Now they're also taking the sounds away from the cars.

To anyone who have been to a motorsports event: Can you really deny the awesomeness of the feeling when you got all those high-powered race cars pass by you while the engines roared like tigers? Today you can build the most rugged-looking, beastly race car you can think of, and it'll feel like a toy car for the spectators because, instead of the "VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM" you get the "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE".

Yah, you heard me, folks, I'm a traditionalist all the way when it comes to racing. Oh well, hopefully some series will still maintain the integrity and not go down the toy car path. One can only wait and see.

 

[ShiftingGears]

When I went to Melbourne in 2007 for the Australian Grand Prix I thought being able to hear the F1 cars across the Yarra River was just awesome. However once I got to the track I found the noise rather unpleasant to be honest. I like the new F1 noise. I do think motorsport becoming quieter is inevitable.

Unfortunately I don't think you'll hear this kind of engine roar again:

 

[FormulaKimball]

This issue is hard... I admit I'm very excited at the pervasiveness of electric car technology today and look forward to having a little electric rocket someday (read TheOatmeal's comic on owning a Tesla Model S, you'll want one, trust me... http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s) at least during the week for routine trips. But I also love my humble Sentra Spec V with 200hp and six manual gears, even that engine note at 3,000rpm on up is quite nice. The little formula cars I've raced have basically the same engine but no muffler, which gets a little loud after a whole day of it. And I live across the road from a Ferrari/Lamborghini/Maserati dealership so I get plenty of really nice engine notes to keep the dreams going...

I went to a practice day for the Canadian GP in 2007. We were downtown in Montreal behind Club Soda and I remember the moment I could hear the cars start making their way out onto the circuit (ensuing a mad rush for me to get down there). That's over a mile away, mind you, and I could clearly hear a cacophony of cars going around the island. But when I got there, I really didn't feel the need for ear protection... even when standing right at the fence at turn 6/7. Believe me, I don't put up with ear damaging noise for a minute, always have ear plugs with me and if I have to play music that night, I don't want ringing in my ears to screw that up. But an hour of listening to those cars blast by me 20 feet away, and no problems with my hearing. Even though they were loud, very loud, shaking the ground when going past at speed and we also had all those popping noises on downshifts and lots of rasp from the traction control on exits.

I can deal with watching Le Mans cars silently blasting around the track as long as they don't also look "quiet" (slow)... But the thrill of F1 used to be something different. No other cars sounded like that. Let's just say there are very few cars that I can sit and just listen to on YouTube, I mean they make videos that are nothing but the sound of an F1 car with a V10 engine (or maybe V12) going around the track. You won't get people enjoying the current sound for its own sake like that...

TL;DR: I guess in the end I think the sport should evolve naturally. When it's no longer competitive to run petrol engines instead of electric, then fine, by all means let the sport go that way. I don't really like artificially forcing it to happen and limiting it so much... And part of me just hopes people puttering along at 30mph in the city will all start doing so on electricity, so the dinosaur juice can be preserved for us racing nuts

 

[MagpieRacer]

You said it in your opening line @mister dog It is the benchmark of technology. Is it in danger? Nope, it's evolving and moving with the times.

 

[kikie]

In 20 years time, hydrogen race cars will be the only race cars available. Not the hydrogen fuel cell but hydrogen internal combustion. So the engine sounds are not in danger.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Times change...one day we'll tell our grandchildren about the good old days...

Times may change, but looking at the golden era of most motorsports around the late 90's and early 2000's...

Your honour, no further questions.

You got the golden era wrong by 20 years, unless times/opinions change

 

[Carbonox]

Your honour, no further questions.

You got the golden era wrong by 20 years, unless times/opinions change

With the quality of racing effectively peaking in classes like NASCAR and CART, and the safety measures being finally updated to an acceptable level... why not?

 

[TenEightyOne]

With the quality of racing effectively peaking in classes like NASCAR and CART, and the safety measures being finally updated to an acceptable level... why not?

Because by then the sport was into a plastic, post-boom gorging of celebrity, politics and nonsense.

The golden era you're looking for was in the late 70s when men were men, and walls were nervous.

 

[Bo]

Because by then the sport was into a plastic, post-boom gorging of celebrity, politics and nonsense.

The golden era you're looking for was in the late 70s when men were men, and walls were nervous.

And actual organisation was crap and dangerous. Sure, it makes for great documentaries and quotes, but motorsport in the late 90's/early 00's had the best mix of everything.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Times may change, but looking at the golden era of most motorsports around the late 90's and early 2000's, I don't exactly know why anyone would ever have welcomed changes from that. First we started getting artificial racing (a good example of which is the Cha$e, double wide restarts and phantom debris cautions in NASCAR, not to mention double points in F1 season finale now), but no, that's not enough. Now they're also taking the sounds away from the cars.

To anyone who have been to a motorsports event: Can you really deny the awesomeness of the feeling when you got all those high-powered race cars pass by you while the engines roared like tigers? Today you can build the most rugged-looking, beastly race car you can think of, and it'll feel like a toy car for the spectators because, instead of the "VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM" you get the "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE".

Yah, you heard me, folks, I'm a traditionalist all the way when it comes to racing. Oh well, hopefully some series will still maintain the integrity and not go down the toy car path. One can only wait and see.

I'm all for advancing technology but I agree, nothing like the sound of raw deafening race cars that roar, whine, pop and backfire that gives you goosebumps. Its all part of the racing experience for me.

Just for example the GTR when stock was so quiet. It was still quick but something felt missing. Now modded it belts out a huge scream that echos half a mile away. It gargles a nice rumble at idle. It just makes the whole experience so much better. Sound is very much a huge part of cars and auto racing for me. It can be downright intoxicating.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And actual organisation was crap and dangerous. Sure, it makes for great documentaries and quotes, but motorsport in the late 90's/early 00's had the best mix of everything.

I can't argue about the safety but I'm not sure that the overall organisation is always better. See this weekends armco-farce at Silverstone for an example, or the vid of the Silverstone restart while the crane was on track (a Formula Ford race from a few months ago).

I'm just basing my opinion on the time that goosed my bumps the most, it was the early 80s watching Group B cars flash by with a sound that suggested they were actually consuming the tube of universe that they were passing through. Grrrr, rarrr, and all that.

By the 90s motorsport had turned into soccer, overpaid latin prima donnas thrashing about whinging for points etc etc... in my opinion.

 

[mister dog]

In 20 years time, hydrogen race cars will be the only race cars available. Not the hydrogen fuel cell but hydrogen internal combustion. So the engine sounds are not in danger.

Which technology will be the most expensive by then you think (hydrogen or electrical)? That will decide the eventual winner of the two. Enlighten me a bit about hydrogen technology though, How does it work in racecars exactly? (dunno much about it).

Also you don't have the torque advantage like you do with electrical power no?

 

[ukfan758]

I miss the roaring V10's and V12's:


This is my favorite V10 video, those car sounds are much better than the crap of today. When it comes to Motorsports, screw the environment. The mid to late 90's and early 2000's were the best era of Motorsports. Racing was getting safer for the drivers and fans but also the cars were getting faster and the engines were sounding better. I blame Audi for the start of the degradation of engine sounds. I support innovation but I do not like it if it means engines will should like crap.

 

[kikie]

Which technology will be the most expensive by then you think (hydrogen or electrical)? That will decide the eventual winner of the two. Enlighten me a bit about hydrogen technology though, How does it work in racecars exactly? (dunno much about it).

Also you don't have the torque advantage like you do with electrical power no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle

I personally don't believe that electric cars will be the future, unless they find a way to mass produce a revolutionary energy storage device which makes it possible for electric cars to drive as far as a diesel and is recharged as quick as a car with a combustion engine is filled with petrol/diesel.

In september, the new Formula E championship is a fact.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

In september, the new Formula E championship is a fact.

ahem

http://jalopnik.com/the-electric-future-of-motorsport-sounds-like-mind-inva-1599836615

(click on the link and watch the Instagram video)

 

[kikie]

That's not an engine sound, that's an ......... annoying noise. My R/C car sounded better than that.

 

[RACECAR]

If the sounds are so in danger, then why have both Toyota AND Porsche not gone down the route of Audi? Also, I find the comparison abit poor considering unlike Audi's Hybrid Diesel, F1 cars are still using Petrol V6s (which they've used before during the turbo era) and the only real difference is the hybrid systems being louder then the actual engines. I think this whole paranoia about Sounds being gone from Motorsport is abit overboard and only seems more pronounced because of the really silly outrage over the idea of F1 having V6s (which I still think comes from people who never heard of cars like the Lotus 97T). Lets not forget the most popular GT racing in the world right now is still all Petrol cars (none of which have hybrids) and I would go as far as say has the best mix of V8s, V10s and V12s anywhere right now. Don't let Audi's dominance with a Silent race car (which is not really silent anymore with that Williams hybrid making it whiz like a spaceship) fool you, its not the end of engines in Motorsports. Until most of the series around the world goes full hybrid, this reeks of nothing but a kneejerk reaction to change (as usual).

 

[ProjectWHaT]

That's not an engine sound, that's an ......... annoying noise. My R/C car sounded better than that.

en·gine

A machine with moving parts that converts power into motion.

I think it should be considered an engine.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I think this whole paranoia about Sounds being gone from Motorsport is abit overboard and only seems more pronounced because of the really silly outrage over the idea of F1 having V6s (which I still think comes from people who never heard of cars like the Lotus 97T).

For some of us, the outrage is *because* we've heard of cars like the Lotus 97T. I have the Lap of the Gods dvd and I can listen to the onboard of the Renault turbo V6 engine around Adelaide all day long. I no longer mind that you can't hear this year's cars so well during races because how fun is it to listen to how they sound now.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

Here's some more videos of the future!

 

[RACECAR]

For some of us, the outrage is *because* we've heard of cars like the Lotus 97T. I have the Lap of the Gods dvd and I can listen to the onboard of the Renault turbo V6 engine around Adelaide all day long. I no longer mind that you can't hear this year's cars so well during races because how fun is it to listen to how they sound now.

Notice I said though "the idea of Formula One having V6 engines". I saw so many comments which just put F1 on some godly pedestal that makes it somehow Too good for V6s (which mostly gave me the impression that most of these complainers have never even heard of the Turbo Era, hence why I always bring up the Lotus). Come to think of it in General from the way people talk about engine notes, all about Straight-6s and V8s and V10s and V12s (and many others I'm sure I'm missing out on) but V6s don't seem to get nearly the amount of praise, even though its given us sounds like this:



This car alone is a perfect example that it can sound as incredible as a V12 while only having half the cylinders:

 

[mister dog]

If the sounds are so in danger, then why have both Toyota AND Porsche not gone down the route of Audi?

I'm talking long term don't forget, we are now only in the beginning of the transition period.

Also, I find the comparison abit poor considering unlike Audi's Hybrid Diesel, F1 cars are still using Petrol V6s (which they've used before during the turbo era) and the only real difference is the hybrid systems being louder then the actual engines.

Slowly but steadily F1 looks like it's also going down the alternative route. Look how small the petrol engines have become in the last years. I'm saying that in a year or 10 when electrical engines could have become the norm on the streets with new cars due to the improved battery technology; F1 will also have gone that route and become a sort of formula E so to speak.

Here's the latest evolution in battery power; charges in 5 minutes and would double the range of current electrical cars:

http://www.colorado.edu/news/releas...d-cu-boulder-could-double-range-electric-cars

I think this whole paranoia about Sounds being gone from Motorsport is abit overboard and only seems more pronounced because of the really silly outrage over the idea of F1 having V6s (which I still think comes from people who never heard of cars like the Lotus 97T). Lets not forget the most popular GT racing in the world right now is still all Petrol cars (none of which have hybrids) and I would go as far as say has the best mix of V8s, V10s and V12s anywhere right now. Don't let Audi's dominance with a Silent race car (which is not really silent anymore with that Williams hybrid making it whiz like a spaceship) fool you, its not the end of engines in Motorsports. Until most of the series around the world goes full hybrid, this reeks of nothing but a kneejerk reaction to change (as usual).

I sense no paranoia with anybody, it's just an idea of how engines will evolve in the next years and how it could affect motorsports. In my opinion; we are now at a breaking point and electrical powered cars will slowly but steadily make petrol engines look like a "20st century thing".

@kikie Thanks for the link i'll read it tomorrow (bedtime now with the footie lasting too long).