Eunos Cosmo's Car Thread: Utility at long last.

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Can't believe it's been a year and a half since I last posted in this thread. So I'm at a bit of a crossroads right now. I still have the Porsche and I still enjoy the car quite a bit. After the first few issues were resolved, the car has been really great now for a while. I've taken it on a few long distance trips (to LA and SD) and it has performed flawlessly. Even better, I now have a garage to keep the car in because I bought a house. Better still, I have a driveway where I can place another car and I'm thinking of doing just that. I will probably keep my 986 until I feel I'm in a good position to get either a 981 or a 718. That one will be lapis blue on tan. Unless Toyota makes a new MR2 and then I might consider that. I'm pretty smitten by MR sports cars.

Me and my SO are planning to buy a nicer new car sometime in the next year (eyeing a Mazda CX-50) that will be her DD and a road trip adventure car. But that still leaves me without a "utility" car to do stuff like make trips to the hardware store with or load my bike into for day trips in the back country. So I'm on the hunt for something for that purpose. AWD would be a nice to have, but realistically I don't think it's that essential. Aside from snow, I don't foresee myself going anywhere in CA that really needs AWD. I don't want an exposed bed (like a pickup) but I do want a lot of interior cargo volume in a small package. Ideally I would be able to fit two bikes inside the car (front wheels removed) and the car should be pretty good on gas (gas is ridiculous in CA). Did I mention it should be cheap? Yo' I got a mortgage...

All that being said, one car that keeps coming up in my searches is the Second Gen Scion XB. These things seemed to be vehemently unloved by all, but I'm not sure why. They have quite a bit of storage space in the back (70cf with the seats folded, which is more than even a new Rav4 and almost on par with a Honda Element) and they have a good powertrain (the 2.4 Camry engine) and I honestly think they look pretty good too. They aren't as quirky as the first gens, but they have a vastly better engine, and I'm not sure you can get a car with a higher ratio of interior storage to exterior dimensions anywhere else. I think the interior is kind of neat too. Lastly, probably due to the unloved part, they are cheap. I found one near me with 150k miles in seemingly great condition for less than $6k, which is waaaay less than a comparable Rav4 or similar competitors. Good luck even finding an Element for sale at all. Does anyone have any experience with these? @Keef you seem to know a lot about Toyotas ...any thoughts? I would guess a Toyota of this vintage would be good for at least 300k miles, if not far more.

 

[Keef]

Can't believe it's been a year and a half since I last posted in this thread. So I'm at a bit of a crossroads right now. I still have the Porsche and I still enjoy the car quite a bit. After the first few issues were resolved, the car has been really great now for a while. I've taken it on a few long distance trips (to LA and SD) and it has performed flawlessly. Even better, I now have a garage to keep the car in because I bought a house. Better still, I have a driveway where I can place another car and I'm thinking of doing just that. I will probably keep my 986 until I feel I'm in a good position to get either a 981 or a 718. That one will be lapis blue on tan. Unless Toyota makes a new MR2 and then I might consider that. I'm pretty smitten by MR sports cars.

Me and my SO are planning to buy a nicer new car sometime in the next year (eyeing a Mazda CX-50) that will be her DD and a road trip adventure car. But that still leaves me without a "utility" car to do stuff like make trips to the hardware store with or load my bike into for day trips in the back country. So I'm on the hunt for something for that purpose. AWD would be a nice to have, but realistically I don't think it's that essential. Aside from snow, I don't foresee myself going anywhere in CA that really needs AWD. I don't want an exposed bed (like a pickup) but I do want a lot of interior cargo volume in a small package. Ideally I would be able to fit two bikes inside the car (front wheels removed) and the car should be pretty good on gas (gas is ridiculous in CA). Did I mention it should be cheap? Yo' I got a mortgage...

All that being said, one car that keeps coming up in my searches is the Second Gen Scion XB. These things seemed to be vehemently unloved by all, but I'm not sure why. They have quite a bit of storage space in the back (70cf with the seats folded, which is more than even a new Rav4 and almost on par with a Honda Element) and they have a good powertrain (the 2.4 Camry engine) and I honestly think they look pretty good too. They aren't as quirky as the first gens, but they have a vastly better engine, and I'm not sure you can get a car with a higher ratio of interior storage to exterior dimensions anywhere else. I think the interior is kind of neat too. Lastly, probably due to the unloved part, they are cheap. I found one near me with 150k miles in seemingly great condition for less than $6k, which is waaaay less than a comparable Rav4 or similar competitors. Good luck even finding an Element for sale at all. Does anyone have any experience with these? @Keef you seem to know a lot about Toyotas ...any thoughts? I would guess a Toyota of this vintage would be good for at least 300k miles, if not far more.

They're unloved because they're miserable. Possibly one of the least fun cars ever created, just like the Corolla of that era. But they're good, and if you get one that's been taken care of properly (kind of a minefield in the Toyota world as people choose to neglect maintenance due to the legend) then it will last long enough that you will hate it. It's a really annoying problem honestly. I'd prefer a manual because I think the automatic is likely the only mechanical weak point and also just makes the car suck.

Actually there is another annoying problem with Toyotas of that vintage and that is proprietary stereo equipment. I think Scion avoided this because they were designed to be modded and had an optional Pioneer receiver but most other Toyotas had optional JBL equipment which makes aftermarket installations ridiculously complicated, nigh impossible. The problem is so bad that there is an entire company dedicated to selling repair kits for these JBL speakers because that is actually cheaper and easier than "simply" replacing them with aftermarket hardware. But like I said, I think Scion didn't have this issue. I'd highly recommend talking to Crutchfield if you plan on adding a CarPlay touchscreen, and I recommend that mod over anything else as it turns an old car into a brand new one overnight. I do know the XB still requires the same wiring spaghetti system my Sequoia does because it also has steering wheel controls. Fortunately, Crutchfield makes installation nearly plug and play.

Assuming you get a properly maintained one it will be a good car to a fault and very cheap to maintain. I hate it.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They're unloved because they're miserable. Possibly one of the least fun cars ever created, just like the Corolla of that era. But they're good, and if you get one that's been taken care of properly (kind of a minefield in the Toyota world as people choose to neglect maintenance due to the legend) then it will last long enough that you will hate it. It's a really annoying problem honestly. I'd prefer a manual because I think the automatic is likely the only mechanical weak point and also just makes the car suck.

Actually there is another annoying problem with Toyotas of that vintage and that is proprietary stereo equipment. I think Scion avoided this because they were designed to be modded and had an optional Pioneer receiver but most other Toyotas had optional JBL equipment which makes aftermarket installations ridiculously complicated, nigh impossible. The problem is so bad that there is an entire company dedicated to selling repair kits for these JBL speakers because that is actually cheaper and easier than "simply" replacing them with aftermarket hardware. But like I said, I think Scion didn't have this issue. I'd highly recommend talking to Crutchfield if you plan on adding a CarPlay touchscreen, and I recommend that mod over anything else as it turns an old car into a brand new one overnight. I do know the XB still requires the same wiring spaghetti system my Sequoia does because it also has steering wheel controls. Fortunately, Crutchfield makes installation nearly plug and play.

Assuming you get a properly maintained one it will be a good car to a fault and very cheap to maintain. I hate it.

The way you describe it makes it all the more desirable honestly. Even if it blows a trans, it's still cheap. This particular one I found seems to have that Pioneer receiver...which I would leave alone because I don't care about infotainment. I struggle to see the misery, particularly for my use case. I'd imagine I would drive it to either trails or home depot on the weekends and it would sit idle the rest of the time. Maybe I take it camping a few times until the CX-50 materializes? You want misery? My misery right now is not being able to pickup anything larger than 18" x 24" in size. You know how much that sucks as a home owner? I can't buy a god damn step ladder because I can't get the ****ing thing home. You ever spent 30 mins in a home depot parking lot trying to stuff a toolbox (that was already the model smaller than the one I really wanted) into a car, only to fail, give up, return it, and then pay $80 to have them deliver it? Huh? Have you?! That's misery!

 

[Keef]

The way you describe it makes it all the more desirable honestly. Even if it blows a trans, it's still cheap. This particular one I found seems to have that Pioneer receiver...which I would leave alone because I don't care about infotainment. I struggle to see the misery, particularly for my use case. I'd imagine I would drive it to either trails or home depot on the weekends and it would sit idle the rest of the time. Maybe I take it camping a few times until the CX-50 materializes? You want misery? My misery right now is not being able to pickup anything larger than 18" x 24" in size. You know how much that sucks as a home owner? I can't buy a god damn step ladder because I can't get the ****ing thing home. You ever spent 30 mins in a home depot parking lot trying to stuff a toolbox (that was already the model smaller than the one I really wanted) into a car, only to fail, give up, return it, and then pay $80 to have them deliver it? Huh? Have you?! That's misery!

I feel your pain but from the other end - I've been the one having to help people move or make runs to Home Depot. Not having to stress about cargo really is a weight off your shoulders. With an XB, your biggest problem will be tying it all down so it doesn't bang around on the way home lol.

As for the transmission, at least the Toyota truck transmissions don't really fail catastrophically even when they milkshake. Matter of fact, my buddy's 3rd gen 4Runner did that three times in a year before he replaced the radiator and it's fine. I have no clue but cooling trans fluid through the radiator is super common so as long as you're checking your fluids often you'll spot any problems.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Me and the SO looked at a few vehicles recently as a replacement for her aging A4

Kia Sportage
CR-V Hybrid
Rav4 Hybrid
Toyota Prius Prime
BMW 330e

Out of the SUVs I liked the Honda the best. It drove surprisingly well and felt significantly better on the inside than the Kia or Toyotas. It was honestly a surprise to me. I thought the CVT would feel sluggish and rubberbandy but the CRV actually has pretty good response from that 1.5T, far better than the 2.0t 6a in the A4. The Honda dealer I visited was not adding any markups, which was pretty nice. One could pick up an EXL CRV Hybrid for about $35k. I don't find the Honda to be very good looking, but its OK.

The Toyota is fine, but getting one is near-impossible. If you do manage it, you're likely spending $40k with dealer markups. The Rav4 looks ok but I don't like the interior as much as the Hondas.

The Kia felt like crap on the inside. The look of the interior is cool, but the execution is not on par with Honda and Toyota, which somewhat surprised me. The dealership was also a toxic predatory dump, which put me off to the whole brand honestly.

The Prius Prime has some impressive figures and the battery range is very compelling. But damn are these cars hideous inside and out. I could almost tolerate the offensively bad exterior, but the interior feels just as ugly and it feels pretty flimsy too. The whole car just reeks of cost cutting. The door handles feel like they want to fall off. The cheap piano black plastic is horrific. The infotainment is awful. I don't know how much worse they could make it. Extremely disappointing. The driving dynamics are also poor.

The wildcard in this group is the BMW 330e, which after federal and state tax incentives is on par with the CRV, and cheaper than the Rav4 (because every dealer is adding 5k to those). Adding in the cost of fuel to run the non Plug-in Honda, the BMW becomes cheaper than that too, assuming a 25 mile total daily commute (which could be done on battery alone in the BMW). We didn't drive the BMW, but sat in it and its obviously vastly better than all the others. I actually couldn't believe that they are only 42k MSRP before incentives.

We kind of want a smaller SUV rather than a sedan, but the BMW just seems like such great value. I'm mentioned elsewhere on this forum that I'm a fan of the new 3 series. I think it's the best looking car they've done since the E46. The interior is one of the best they've ever done. I don't love that the car weighs 4,000lbs, but aside from the weight you wouldn't know it was a plug-in, it doesn't eat up the entire trunk like it does on the Prius prime. It's still an expensive car, but you do seem to get a lot for that $36k.

I wanted to look at a Hyundai Elantra Hybrid too, but there wasn't one available to look at near us. Will have to wait for later. Shame that there aren't more plug-in hybrids on the market, the concept is really appealing to me...Provide a small EV only range for 85% of your driving, and a gas engine for longer trips. That way you aren't carrying around a massive battery that you don't really need most of the time, but also don't have to deal with poor charging infrastructure on extended trips. The 330e is just such a compelling package...I mean, it's like $2k more expensive than a Subaru Crosstrek hybrid with a couple options. Factor in that the tax rebate is less for the Subaru, the BMW comes out to be roughly the same price...as a Crosstrek.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

So we had effectively settled on a Tucson PHEV. Put our name on the priority list and we're up for an allocation whenever they get one. A lot of that decision was based on getting a $6,800 tax credit. That tax credit no longer exists per the Inflation Reduction Act (Tucson is not made in the USA) so we're kind of back to square one. We still could buy it, but the value proposition just isn't there anymore at $35k for a base model (basically) Tucson and, ultimately, we don't like it as much as other vehicles.

We took a look at a Santa Fe Hybrid. I don't mind the exterior and the interior design is actually quite nice. I really like what Hyundai is up to lately with their interiors. Unfortunately, the quality of the interior still doesn't feel up to the standard of Honda (let alone the Germans) even if the design is more interesting. But more critically, I really did not like how the Santa Fe drove - it felt remarkably like a body on frame SUV. Ponderous with lots of secondary motions over rough roads. I was actually quite surprised how un-composed it felt. Immediately getting back into our '08 A4, that car just rides so so well.

So we've pretty much written off Hyundai & Kia at this point. As far as new vehicles go, Toyota is still marking up Rav4s deep into BMW territory so those make zero sense. More than that, I'm so disgusted at the Toyota brand (due to their snake-oil dealerships) that I've pretty much sworn off of them for life. If Toyota makes another MR2 I would consider it, but I will go out of my way to never give them my money after the **** their dealerships have pulled (with a smug & self righteous grin on their face no less) over the last couple years.

In terms of new vehicles, then, it seems as though its between Mazda & Honda. I really love the CX50 (I mean, is there a better looking SUV, period?) but the fuel economy isn't great with the 2.5. The Honda (CRV Hybrid) kind of delivers on all fronts but I can't get excited about it - the old model's interior is nice but feels dated. The new one feels a bit sparse. I like the Forester too, but it's really not the equal of the Mazda and Honda. If Mazda would just release the CX50 Hybrid already, the choice would be so simple.

One thing I have noticed recently is that prices of pre-owned (2-3 years old) cars have come down quite a bit, as long as we're not talking about super popular models like Rav4s, Tellurides, etc. In the sub-$35k, sub-40k mile range you can get:

BMW X3
Volvo XC60 (not many, but some)
Mercedes GLC
Audi Q5
VW Tiguan R-Line

The BMW looks OK on the outside, and I really like the interior and the powertrain is great. We are going to look at one next weekend though I worry about the long-term ownership prospects of a car as complicated as the X3 is. Same is roughly true for the other premium brands though I like the Mercedes and Audi quite a bit less. Every real estate agent in Marin Country drives a white GLC so its an image I don't want for myself. The Q5 just seams dreary to me, like the default yuppy choice. The Volvo looks great inside and out, but as with the BMW I don't know what the longer-term ownership experience would be like. @Joey D ? Lastly, the VW looks cool but is pretty unimpressive otherwise. I think I owe it to myself to look at one, but I would be surprised if I drove off the lot in one.

As you can tell, the criteria shifts a bit between the new vs pre-owned decision, none of the pre-owned contenders are hybrid. There's some logic to this, but admittedly not a lot.

Help?

 

[Joey D]

The Volvo looks great inside and out, but as with the BMW I don't know what the longer-term ownership experience would be like. @Joey D ?

The XC60 is a good vehicle, however, the SPA ones (2017+) won't exactly be cheap to maintain. While the engine is good with plenty of power, if you opt for the T6 it's going to be supercharged and turbocharged. A 2.0L engine pushing 316hp is going to require some maintenance to keep it running right, especially with all the moving parts in it. I don't know much about the T8 other than it's a ton of power thanks to the hybrid system. It should be reasonably reliable if you keep up with the service intervals.

With my SPA S60, I never had any real issues with it besides the moonroof that kept getting twisted in the tracks and making a terrible noise. It was a solid car that drove well, was very comfortable, and had tech in it that I really enjoyed.

Honestly, I don't think I would recommend a Geely Volvo to someone keen on keeping their vehicle for an extended period.

A first-generation XC60 though on the Ford P3 platform would be excellent, especially one with the 3.0L T6 which is a really, really stout engine. I suspect that might be a bit older than you're looking for since those stopped in 2016. A buddy of mine in Utah was considering one and I talked him into it. He's got roughly 150k miles on it now and nothing has gone wrong with it.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Why is Acura not on the list for consideration?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The XC60 is a good vehicle, however, the SPA ones (2017+) won't exactly be cheap to maintain. While the engine is good with plenty of power, if you opt for the T6 it's going to be supercharged and turbocharged. A 2.0L engine pushing 316hp is going to require some maintenance to keep it running right, especially with all the moving parts in it. I don't know much about the T8 other than it's a ton of power thanks to the hybrid system. It should be reasonably reliable if you keep up with the service intervals.

With my SPA S60, I never had any real issues with it besides the moonroof that kept getting twisted in the tracks and making a terrible noise. It was a solid car that drove well, was very comfortable, and had tech in it that I really enjoyed.

Honestly, I don't think I would recommend a Geely Volvo to someone keen on keeping their vehicle for an extended period.

A first-generation XC60 though on the Ford P3 platform would be excellent, especially one with the 3.0L T6 which is a really, really stout engine. I suspect that might be a bit older than you're looking for since those stopped in 2016. A buddy of mine in Utah was considering one and I talked him into it. He's got roughly 150k miles on it now and nothing has gone wrong with it.

Yeah, not a fan of the pre-SPA Volvos - the interiors look very dated at this point and I find the exterior styling unattractive. Good information RE long term ownership perspective.

@ROAD_DOGG33J This is going to be hard to articulate but I'll try:

I like the RDX, but I don't like the RDX enough to look past it's cargo capacity to price to fuel economy ratio. That is to say: it's too expensive for how small it is and how fuel efficient it isn't, and I don't like it enough to look past those things like I might for the X3. The MDX is outside of my budget.

I think the CRV EX-L Hybrid might be the answer, I just need to go see how they look/feel in person. 200hp, Leather, 40mpg, and a cavernous 76.5cf of cargo space - all for $35k. The previous-gen CR-V is the best driving SUV I've sampled, so surely the new one must be just as good. Now whether or not the new one is actually obtainable is another question entirely...

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I'm seeing some 2019 MDXs right inside your 35k, but the California market could be different.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm seeing some 2019 MDXs right inside your 35k, but the California market could be different.

Ah I was filtering out the previous gen. I really dislike the "old" style Acura interiors, which were aesthetically unchanged since like 2014 in practically the whole range. The new design interiors are a huge improvement, but most of the models with them are only 1-2 years old at this point and outside of my price range.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

So I went to go check out the new CR-V last weekend and came away really liking it. Honda knows how to make a car that feels good to drive. Great inputs from the controls, great ergonomics in the interior, great visibility, and overall a simple and straightforward experience. You just get in and go. The interior is great if slightly less practical than the old one (the rear seats do not fold flat and there are a few standard items omitted vs the previous model) but the infotainment is vastly better - one of the best I've used. It feels both smoother and more controlled/fun than a Sante Fe though not quite as isolated. While the Sante Fe (and Tucson and Sportage for that matter) have interesting interior designs (of varying degrees of success) they still don't feel quite up to the quality level of Honda. Exterior wise, the Mazda CX50 looks better, but I think the CR-V isn't far off, and the fuel economy is significantly better, especially with the hybrid...which Mazda frustratingly doesn't offer. Of all the cars I've looked at, the CR-V has been the most compelling. If all goes according to plan, I'll have one in December, a sport hybrid in white...at MSRP no less.

On the subject of it's little brother: The HR-V looks far better in person than it does in photos, and the interior is quite nice. It feels like a Civic wagon, IMO, though taller. It's a much different car than the short and ambiguous previous generation HR-V. The plug-in hybrid they are planning to produce later is going to annihilate this segment - if they can build enough of them.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Haha - December, wow what wishful thinking!

Well we have a build date now and the color has changed to silver (another dealership offered the car at MSRP, so I took that instead). Car is scheduled to be built 2/21 with delivery sometime middle late march. We put down a deposit so it feels actually real now.

The other news is that the dealer actually had a hybrid demo and so I finally got a chance to, you know, actually drive the car I'm buying. I had driven the 1.5t CRV (previous and current gen) before but the hybrids have been non-existent. I came away super impressed. I've only experienced Toyota hybrids and I always found them to have rough transitions between electric and gas power...you always felt what it was doing. The CR-V felt totally seamless. If I were try to describe it, I would say it just felt like a larger V6 in the way it delivered the power. The 4-cylinder engine was smooth when it was running and even didn't sound too bad. The huge difference between the hybrid and the 1.5t is the throttle response, particularly accelerating from a stop. The 1.5t, while delivering good acceleration on boost had pretty poor low rpm response. This is not an issue at all in the hybrid which feels properly stout from a stop and has very sharp throttle response. The steering feels a bit artificial (compared to the excellent hydraulic rack in the A4 and the 986) but the weighting and steering ratio was very good, so I'll rate it 7/10. The brakes felt strong and not overly boosted - and the regen is all but invisible. Really good braking feel. I didn't really hustle the demo through too many curves, but the suspension has really good body control and the ride is very good. Overall I really enjoyed driving it - and when you add in the new excellent Honda interior, the handsome body and the absurdly good 40mpg combined, 0-60 in the low 7 second range, the cavernous 77 cubic feet of storage capacity...it just feels like the best car in it's class by far.

This thing is going to be a road trip machine. First trip we are working out is up through the Willamette Valley to Portland, OR with stops in Eugene and Mckminnville.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Well with @Tornado doing mods to his Porsche, I finally had the swift kick in the ass I needed to start tweaking my own. One thing that's always felt underwhelming to me is the stock shifter in the 986s. It's not bad, but it also doesn't make me want to shift. After doing a bit of research, I found a reasonably priced shifter from Schnell and ordered one. I also ordered a new shift boot and shift knob from Black Forest Industries that goes along with my interior.

Didn't think to take any pictures until I was well into it - here is the OEM shifter housing removed:

here are the two shifter assemblies side by side. Nylon vs aluminum. (I could not for the life of me get the knob and boot off the old shifter, so I just whole-hogged it out of there)

New shifter installed:

Had some frustrations. The lower pivot point of the short throw shifter is lower / closer to the trans tunnel and it was interfering with a piece of plastic (the green thing in the first picture) and was binding up the whole shifter. Doing a little more research I found I wasn't the only one with this issue and thankfully it removes pretty easily. After that it works great. Way, way sharper feeling than the factory unit and the shift throws feel probably half as long with a nice snickety-snick feedback. The shift knob too feels great with a positive engagement - it reminds me of a good Honda shifter though maybe not quite as slick. Overall I'm really happy with it. I'm replacing the tired pleather shift boot with a simple black suede one, but still waiting for that to arrive so the console is going to stay open until that comes in.

A few other things on the list I want to do:
Seats
Suspension
Wheels
Exhaust (maybe)

These are really the only things I find lacking on the car and I think I could be really happy with it after making those upgrades. I've ordered some swatches/material samples from a few seat manufacturers...stay tuned.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Well that took FOREVER. Shifter boot came in sometime in the last 2 weeks (been traveling since 3/2) well over a month after the rest of the stuff and so I was finally able to get it all back together. Really happy with the suede - it looks a little more rennsport and it also contrasts better with the black console than the stock vinyl pleather boot. When I get around to doing the cubby delete, I think it will look even better.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Well, it finally happened. CR-V hybrid awd in urban grey has arrived. It may not be the most efficient hybrid on the market, but damn does the powertrain work well. Utterly smooth and effortless power delivery. Can't wait to put some big trips into this thing. Really happy with how it looks too, even if the current battleship grey & black trend may look a little dated in a few years.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

First real drive in the car, out to Dillon Beach to see the sunset - because of course it had to be a sunset beach drive.

So far averaging just under 35mpg. I suspect that number will be about the upper end of the fuel economy, but still pretty good for how big this car is. Really enjoying how smooth, comfortable and really just easy this car is. It does everything in such an effortless way. The powertrain is effortless, the interior ergomonics are effortless (the HVAC controls on the new Hondas are just a joy to use - nothing is controlled via touch) and the inputs are all just right. It even handles remarkably well.