Europe - The Official Thread

inCloud
And? We ain't talking about absolute monarchy, he cant ban Muslims.
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It's true that he technically can't outright ban muslims and/or islam - certainly not right now - but he can absolutely make them feel unwelcome, even ones that wouldn't even hurt a fly. And banning mosques and prayers is a pretty big step in that direction.
In effect, I guess such measures could be regarded as a de facto muslim ban - while you can exist in the country, said country doesn't want you and is doing whatever it can to make you want to leave (or preferrably, not make you wanna come there in the first place).
 
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sw3g005
but he can absolutely make them feel unwelcome
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To a degree. Guess people want it. Not sure if it help with immigration.
UKMikey
And? There's nothing centrist about banning mosques and Islamic prayer.
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No one banning mosques and Islamic prayers. Want and will do is different things.

Guess, pro HAMAS rallies have something to do with rise of right wing.
 
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People don't want that, but fear mongers get under the skins of these people. That's how the right gets voters.

Also I doubt there are many pro Hamas rallies, at least not in Europe.
 
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inCloud
And? We ain't talking about absolute monarchy, he cant ban Muslims.
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The problem is that if he could, he would do, and a large part of the country would hail him for doing it.

I dont understand why we should blame that somehow on the left btw.
 
p78
People don't want that, but fear mongers get under the skins of these people. That's how the right gets voters.

Also I doubt there are many pro Hamas rallies, at least not in Europe.
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Media multiply few rallies into many, sure people scared.

Gingerale
I dont understand why we should blame that somehow on the left btw.
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Most European countries are socialistic. Current immigration problems is on them.

Gingerale
The problem is that if he could, he would do, and a large part of the country would hail him for doing it.
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You overreacting.
 
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inCloud
No one banning mosques and Islamic prayers. Want and will do is different things.
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They promised to do this when elected. It's in their manifesto.

Whether the other parties let them do this or not, a pledge like that says a lot about where they are on the political spectrum.
 
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inCloud
Current immigration problems is on them.
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Immigration isn't a "problem" if you have a competent government. Right wing Governments skimming any public service to the absolute bone have no headroom for population increases because they don't want to spend tax revenues on the people, indigenous or not, if there's way it can flesh out the bank account of them or their friends instead.
 
UKMikey
They also pledged to leave the EU.
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Imposibru

MatskiMonk
Right wing Governments
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Its generalization. There are Argentinian lefties that ruined potential of richest country in the world and Saakashvili right government in Georgia that rebuild failed state into modern European country in 4 years. Problem isn't right or left, but incompetent populists.

Far right populists isn't solution for immigration politics, but its sign for lefties to overthink their program that doesn't work well enough, according to Dutch citizens. Europe can't become far right in one or two election cycles. That's my point.
 
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The United Kingdom proves that you can leave the EU, the wisdom of doing so is up to you, but the Netherlands as a eurozone member would be a car crash test case.
 
All the extreme ideas are not going to happen. The PVV needs the moderate parties to form a government and they'll never join if those ideas stay.
 
inCloud
You overreacting.
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No I'm not. Most people vote for him because of his islam viewpoints.

inCloud
Most European countries are socialistic. Current immigration problems is on them.
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Yes and most European countries are socialistic and thriving. But somehow we want to address all the problems we have on immigrants, which is a false statement. So to blame the left for that is wrong. Even so because the Netherlands has been right conservative for quite a while now. Most of our immigration comes from right governments, not from socialistic.
 
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Gingerale
No I'm not. Most people vote for him because of his islam viewpoints.
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While this is true I'd also argue that it's oversimplified. With the alt-right pipeline being a thing across media (actually, right wing media in general is over represented, and this video explains it pretty well), I think most people vote for his views on islam not because they're inherently bad people, but because they've been groomed into that ideology. People who subscribed to those views to begin with (eg. literal neo-nazis) tend to constitute such a small (albeit loud) minority in most countries that populist parties would most likely never be able to get a seat in parliament, let alone win elections. For example Brexit would've probably never happened if the nutjobs alone voted leave, nor would Trump get even remotely close to any of the support he's still enjoying by a fair share of the population.
 
sw3g005
While this is true I'd also argue that it's oversimplified. With the alt-right pipeline being a thing across media (actually, right wing media in general is over represented, and this video explains it pretty well), I think most people vote for his views on islam not because they're inherently bad people, but because they've been groomed into that ideology. People who subscribed to those views to begin with (eg. literal neo-nazis) tend to constitute such a small (albeit loud) minority in most countries that populist parties would most likely never be able to get a seat in parliament, let alone win elections. For example Brexit would've probably never happened if the nutjobs alone voted leave, nor would Trump get even remotely close to any of the support he's still enjoying by a fair share of the population.
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Oh I'm not disagreeing in that, I don't think 30% of the Dutch people is bad, HOWEVER, I do believe that if you are a anti racist you would never vote for him. Simple as that.

Also, it's a very dangerous underestimation to think that someone like Wilders, whos political program is almost purely focussed on 'getting rid of immigration and islam', will never be able to do so. It's a slippery slope, and again, people don't vote for it thinking he will never pull it off, they vote vor him because they hope he can.
 
Gingerale
No I'm not. Most people vote for him because of his islam viewpoints.
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Yes, but it doesn't mean they share them. Enema or **** dilemma.

Gingerale
But somehow we want to address all the problems we have on immigrants
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Thats hot topic, nothing more.

Gingerale
I do believe that if you are a anti racist you would never vote for him
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Maybe ,they believe in institutions and that system will balance itself.
 
I honestly don't see how people can look at the UK, immigration, the left versus the right, and EU membership, and come to the conclusion immigration is a problem caused by the left and that leaving the EU and becoming even more right-wing is any kind of solution. That **** is b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

The party in government here has openly admitted it has to create a culture war to stand a chance in the next election, you can't even trust that they want to stop immigration, they're saying they do, and 'othering' the migrants, so we give them the power to do it, and what happens... record immigration! Nearly 10 years ago our Prime Minister was talking about getting net migration under 100,000... they've been in power since, told us we had to leave Europe to regain control of our borders, we left Europe, that same party managed to stay in power and where's net immigration? 700,000+.

Racism is an issue, perhaps just Islamophobia or perhaps simple tribalism (depends on whatever label you want to use)... but we should never lose sight of why we're being told what we're being told.

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Gingerale
Oh I'm not disagreeing in that, I don't think 30% of the Dutch people is bad, HOWEVER, I do believe that if you are a anti racist you would never vote for him. Simple as that.
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Yuuup. Some people are definitely more vulnerable to the pipeline than others, though once again, I'd argue that's less due to racism and more due to ignorance (which in turn is likely benevolent in nature). Unfortunately, the pipeline also has a tendency to corrupt people - some are able to get away, while others become a lost cause :indiff:
Gingerale
Also, it's a very dangerous underestimation to think that someone like Wilders, whos political program is almost purely focussed on 'getting rid of immigration and islam', will never be able to do so. It's a slippery slope, and again, people don't vote for it thinking he will never pull it off, they vote vor him because they hope he can.
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It's unfortunate, but far too many people/nations have a "can't happen here" attitude regarding populism, and that has, far many times in the past, proven itself to passively allow populists to not just exist but flourish. Why else do you think the following quote exists? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
 

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