Expanation on manual shifting.

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Jambi33
(Warning: I'm kind of a newb)
A quick question about manual transmission. I have been experimenting with this lately, and I have found that although it may be harder to cut corners and maneuver the car while having to shift, it seems that you may be able to better budget your take off speed out of corners with a manual if you do it right. At least it seems that way. I was hoping one of you pro's could explain the benefits of a manual transmission when racing.
 
There are quite a few benefits to manual shifting.
One of them is that often you'll be in high enough revs just a few feet before the brake point that automatic would shift you up, while here you can keep it in the lower gear, meaning you lose less momentum.
Another is during the corner itself and depends a lot on the car. Some cars tend to break loose while accelerating and turning (power oversteer) due to the amount of power suddenly hitting the wheels. This can generally be overcome by a lighter throttle foot, but in extreme cases, not even that's enough, and you can instead by in a higher gear which causes power to be put to the wheels slower (but also hampering acceleration, obviously).

I guess technically, shortshifting (shifting before redline) in an endurance race will save a bit of fuel, but I have no idea how well that is modelled in GT5.

Oh, and once you get on to learning about torque curves and power bands (assuming you haven't), you'll see that every once in a while, it actually pays off shifting before redline too due to the engine characteristics.

Generally manual gears just give you a lot more flexibility. I made the switch 6 weeks ago, and while at first it took some time and it was an extra thing to keep your mind on while driving, after the first endurance doing it, it's second nature and it's really helped a lot. Not only does it improve laptimes once it's stuck, it'll also get you out of tricky situations with power oversteer.
 
schack
There are quite a few benefits to manual shifting.
One of them is that often you'll be in high enough revs just a few feet before the brake point that automatic would shift you up, while here you can keep it in the lower gear, meaning you lose less momentum.
Another is during the corner itself and depends a lot on the car. Some cars tend to break loose while accelerating and turning (power oversteer) due to the amount of power suddenly hitting the wheels. This can generally be overcome by a lighter throttle foot, but in extreme cases, not even that's enough, and you can instead by in a higher gear which causes power to be put to the wheels slower (but also hampering acceleration, obviously).

I guess technically, shortshifting (shifting before redline) in an endurance race will save a bit of fuel, but I have no idea how well that is modelled in GT5.

Oh, and once you get on to learning about torque curves and power bands (assuming you haven't), you'll see that every once in a while, it actually pays off shifting before redline too due to the engine characteristics.

Generally manual gears just give you a lot more flexibility. I made the switch 6 weeks ago, and while at first it took some time and it was an extra thing to keep your mind on while driving, after the first endurance doing it, it's second nature and it's really helped a lot. Not only does it improve laptimes once it's stuck, it'll also get you out of tricky situations with power oversteer.
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Thank you so much for that information. Yeah I started to notice how I can keep better momentum when I don't shift up right before a corner even if though I am about to redline. I dont quite understand what you mean in regards to the power over steering, or how it negatively effects your ride and how manual shifting can help it. Im sure there is a lot I will learn in the coming months for sure. Thanks again. Ill read up on the power oversteering, torque curves and power bands.
 
I'll tell ya, I switched back in October. It took a couple weeks, but now I can shift without thinking.

I've found that you can brake much quicker, too.
 
A prime example of wise short shifting is with the 07 MINI Cooper S. It's torque peaks early and drops off... while it's HP starts to die after about 5500-6000 RPMs. Although you can rev it to around 7000 (with ECU tuning), it's better to shift at around 6000.

Other cars are like this as well, you just gotta look at the HP and TQ curves. Sometimes manually shifting to a higher gear earlier in the RPMs will give you better acceleration.
 
In RWD cars with a lot of power (or a high power-to-weight ratio), if you floor it in the lower gears, the car has a tendency to spin out (oversteer). In some cars, you don't even need full throttle to do it.
This is even more pronounced in cars with some tuning. As you'll notice, tuning the engine increases the rev limit. Drivetrain upgrades get the power to the wheels even faster than the standard components

The reason for that is the sudden burst of power which causes the rear wheels to lose traction. This is what traction control is invented to combat. Sadly, nearly all the time, and especially with the generic traction control model in GT5, traction control is way too conservative and kicks in very early, causing you to lose a lot of acceleration, even at TCS level 1.

If say you're in first gear and you give it some throttle and spin out, it'll be because you rev from 1000 to 8000 very fast, sending shocking amounts of power to the wheels in no time. If you instead were in 2nd gear, the cadence would be higher, and so you would go from 1000 to 8000 rpm in less time, meaning your wheels will keep traction.
 
Short shifting is also extremely useful in wet conditions, and something you can't accomplish with an automatic tranny. Constantly hitting your power band means a lot more throttle control by you or you're going to spin. In other words total control of the car's torque is VERY helpful.

Do you have a wheel? Various things depend on how difficult it is to shift. Paddle shift is the easiest (or controller triggers) because you don't have to reach away from the wheel or use a clutch. I go for a sim-racing experience so I don't use them unless the car has them (such as 458 Italia).

If you use clutch/h-pattern or even sequential, watch the hands of your driver in the cockpit view mode. This will give you an idea of when it's ideal to move your hand to the shifter and change gears. I would say ideally shift down and up in a straight line whenever possible (especially down).

Notice though that the driver's shifting hand isn't constantly on the shifter, in fact it is ONLY on the shifter when changing gears then goes directly back to the wheel. Two hands at nine and three as often as possible is ideal for control of the car, or at least that's how I drive.

You'll probably be watching RPM a lot at first, but you should learn to keep your concentration on the corners as much as possible. I sometimes shift by engine sound (you get used to the high-end RPM pitch and it gets kinda intuitive) in corners.

Clutch is a bit more complicated and I'm not even sure I'm that good at race-downshifting (I downshift practically every gear for engine break), but you get used to it. The hardest part for me is missing that physical feeling of the clutch catching the gear, so I constantly miss gears and it takes like 5 seconds to get it back into a gear. On the G25 you have to clutch, take out of gear you missed, put back in gear, release clutch, and even this is tricky to get in the middle of a heated race.

I was probably more confusing than helpful but hopefully you can get something out of what I just said. lol.

Good luck!
 
Camaroyenko
I'll tell ya, I switched back in October. It took a couple weeks, but now I can shift without thinking.

I've found that you can brake much quicker, too.
Click to expand...

Yeah I have also been able to sort of shift brake just by downshifting. It seems to really help when accelerating out of turns.
 
schack
In RWD cars with a lot of power (or a high power-to-weight ratio), if you floor it in the lower gears, the car has a tendency to spin out (oversteer). In some cars, you don't even need full throttle to do it.
This is even more pronounced in cars with some tuning. As you'll notice, tuning the engine increases the rev limit. Drivetrain upgrades get the power to the wheels even faster than the standard components

The reason for that is the sudden burst of power which causes the rear wheels to lose traction. This is what traction control is invented to combat. Sadly, nearly all the time, and especially with the generic traction control model in GT5, traction control is way too conservative and kicks in very early, causing you to lose a lot of acceleration, even at TCS level 1.

If say you're in first gear and you give it some throttle and spin out, it'll be because you rev from 1000 to 8000 very fast, sending shocking amounts of power to the wheels in no time. If you instead were in 2nd gear, the cadence would be higher, and so you would go from 1000 to 8000 rpm in less time, meaning your wheels will keep traction.
Click to expand...

Ah ok. That explains why this one RWD car I have is so damn hard to drive. It constantly slides out from under me every time I try to accelerate out of a turn. That makes perfect sense thank you!
 
Tower Turn 13
Short shifting is also extremely useful in wet conditions, and something you can't accomplish with an automatic tranny. Constantly hitting your power band means a lot more throttle control by you or you're going to spin. In other words total control of the car's torque is VERY helpful.

Do you have a wheel? Various things depend on how difficult it is to shift. Paddle shift is the easiest (or controller triggers) because you don't have to reach away from the wheel or use a clutch. I go for a sim-racing experience so I don't use them unless the car has them (such as 458 Italia).

If you use clutch/h-pattern or even sequential, watch the hands of your driver in the cockpit view mode. This will give you an idea of when it's ideal to move your hand to the shifter and change gears. I would say ideally shift down and up in a straight line whenever possible (especially down).

Notice though that the driver's shifting hand isn't constantly on the shifter, in fact it is ONLY on the shifter when changing gears then goes directly back to the wheel. Two hands at nine and three as often as possible is ideal for control of the car, or at least that's how I drive.

You'll probably be watching RPM a lot at first, but you should learn to keep your concentration on the corners as much as possible. I sometimes shift by engine sound (you get used to the high-end RPM pitch and it gets kinda intuitive) in corners.

Clutch is a bit more complicated and I'm not even sure I'm that good at race-downshifting (I downshift practically every gear for engine break), but you get used to it. The hardest part for me is missing that physical feeling of the clutch catching the gear, so I constantly miss gears and it takes like 5 seconds to get it back into a gear. On the G25 you have to clutch, take out of gear you missed, put back in gear, release clutch, and even this is tricky to get in the middle of a heated race.

I was probably more confusing than helpful but hopefully you can get something out of what I just said. lol.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Yeah I have a wheel. Its the driving force model, so no clutch. I wish I had a clutch for a more authentic experience but hell, I can barely shift right with out one let alone with one lol. I also find myself resting my hand on the shifter cause I shift gears so much. I guess it will take some getting used to. Also these numbers sort of elude me. I understand the concept of torque and how it works I think, but I dont think I really grasp the concept of RPMs on each car. All I understand (i think i understand) is that 5,500 RPM means that the car redlines at 5,500 RPM and thats when you need to shift. The benefit of higher or lower RPMs and its real relationship to the torque or anything else continues to elude me. Thanks for the info!
 
VRob357
(Warning: I'm kind of a newb)
A quick question about manual transmission. I have been experimenting with this lately, and I have found that although it may be harder to cut corners and maneuver the car while having to shift, it seems that you may be able to better budget your take off speed out of corners with a manual if you do it right. At least it seems that way. I was hoping one of you pro's could explain the benefits of a manual transmission when racing.
Click to expand...

There are a wide variety of pros when using a manual transmission while racing and some cons as well. To point out some of the pros though, you can choose what RPM you want to change gears at which will help when going uphill for example because being in the higher RPM's but no redlining will help you get up it faster in most cases because your engine is at peak power, and just to name another you have the freedom to take a corner in which ever gear you would like to so that you can take it smoother and faster.

I obviously didn't get into too much detail but I hope that helped out a bit. 👍
 
VRob357
Yeah I have a wheel. Its the driving force model, so no clutch. I wish I had a clutch for a more authentic experience but hell, I can barely shift right with out one let alone with one lol. I also find myself resting my hand on the shifter cause I shift gears so much. I guess it will take some getting used to. Also these numbers sort of elude me. I understand the concept of torque and how it works I think, but I dont think I really grasp the concept of RPMs on each car. All I understand (i think i understand) is that 5,500 RPM means that the car redlines at 5,500 RPM and thats when you need to shift. The benefit of higher or lower RPMs and its real relationship to the torque or anything else continues to elude me. Thanks for the info!
Click to expand...

nm. better explanation below.
 
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I was going to write what basically would turn out to be a novel, but I'll try to come up with a simplified explanation.

Every engine is designed to exhibit a certain characteristic. Some engines, like a lot of the ones on American muscle cars, have a high volume and produce a lot of torque, but don't rev very high and could redline before 6000. Others are smaller, but rev a lot higher.
Since BHP is a factor of (torque * RPM)/(some constant), it means that provided two cars have the same amount of torque but one has a higher redline than the other, the one with the higher redline gets more bhp. Similarly, given that two cars have equal BHP but one revs lower than the other, it has to have more torque. Usually bigger engines develop more torque. Usually.

Take for example the Viper SRT10. It produces 510 BHP at 5600 RPM from it's massive 8.2L engine.

On the other hand, an engine like the Honda V-TEC found in the Honda Civic Type R is just a 2L engine, but because it goes all the way to 8400 RPM it can actually churn out 222 BHP despite its much lower volume and torque.

As far as how that applies to GT5, you mainly need to know two things and look at two things:
1) The point where the BHP peaks, which can be gotten from the power curve. This is where you shift at the latest. It's usually redline, but as Bottoz said, that doesn't always hold true, especially not on tuned cars.
2) The point where the torque peaks, which can be gotten from the torque curve (which is incidentally the same as the power curve, just a different line). It'll always peak before BHP, it's just a matter of how far before.

From the torque peak to the BHP peak is what's called the Power Band. This is where your engine is most efficient. You want to be in this range at all times.
So if torque peaks at 4500 RPM and BHP peaks at 6000 RPM, you have a power band which is 1500 RPM wide, which is ok.

And as your RPM drop when you shift, you want to shift at a point where you drop to a point which is also in the power band, but before you start getting out of the power band. Sometimes in a terrible car, this is difficult.

I hope that helped more than confused, since it ended up being a novel anyway.
 
Good Job Schack.
 
Thanks to all, this is post was very usefull to me.
 
Haha, everything good has been taken.

Another thing especially nice is that you are able to
take advantage of the full potential of each gear. This is
nice in old cars where shifting takes nearly twice as long.
If you know what gear you have to be in for a turn and you
are still speeding up for it, you can decide if you will actually
need the next gear, or if you will stay in the same gear so you
don't have to deal with the sometimes awkward up-down shift
(not sure if there is a specific name). In an automatic, it would
automatically push you into a higher gear, forcing you to lose
your power for the 1/4 second you need to beat your lap
time.

All in all, manual can save time since you don't have to worry
about shifting too often and losing valuable engine power.

On the other hand, at first you will be slower since you might
over/under shift putting you in wrong gear completely. Your
times will quickly increase however.

Manual is awesome! Definately try it out!
 
heetoestep34.gif


If you've got a clutch...
 
danjee
If you've got a clutch...
Click to expand...

The OP is still learning the basic concepts of a manual transmission. I think heel and toe will just confuse him. Lol. ;-)
 
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