Formula 1 F1 is considering to change the qualifying format for 2020

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by ROAD_DOGG33J, Sep 14, 2019.

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Are you in favor of changing the qualifying format?

  1. Yes

    6.9%
  2. No

    65.5%
  3. Undecided

    27.6%
  1. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

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  2. DesertPenguin

    DesertPenguin Premium

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    Having a qualifying race would eliminate FP3 right? They would get all the data they need for the main race from FP2 and a full qualifying race.
     
  3. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Do you have a better source than The Sun? Every other source says that different things might be trialled in 2020, and a slip by Bianotti seems to be at the core of those rumours... but we've had nothing from F1 themselves I think?
     
  4. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

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    Guess that's as far as it goes. F1 has not confirmed or mentioned anything. Major source seems to Binotto mentioning that all 10 teams have approved the change, and Ross Brawn's quote from the Italian GP expressing interest in changing things up for 2020.

    https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/...firms-change-to-f1-qualifying-format-in-2020/
     
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  5. Pezzarinho17

    Pezzarinho17

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    I wouldn't say I often consider myself a purist when it comes to changes to the regulations, but I'm definitely on that side of the fence with this one. The fundamental points of qualifying are setting the grid order for Sundays race by order of setting the quickest lap times possible. Every set of qualifying formats we have seen adhere to this reasoning at their core, changing other factors around this.

    The thought of having a race in order to set how the next race will start seems a long stretch too far for my liking. It seems we'll see it used for at least the first few races in 2020, so I am welcome to being proven completely wrong and instantly forgetting the old format by Bahrain.
     
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  6. Liquid

    Liquid Premium

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    If someone in 1st place at the end of Q1 or Q2 sets what turns out to be the fastest lap of the session, do they automatically get pole position superseding whomever is in P1 after Q3?
     
  7. HenrySwanson

    HenrySwanson

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    When Brundle and Croft were talking about this (in qualifying I believe) was it just about introducing it for one event only?
     
  8. Grand Prix

    Grand Prix Premium

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    Some thoughts:

    1) The short qualifying race could end up being more exciting than the Grand Prix. If that is the case, casual viewers will have no reason to watch the main event. Even some fans won't bother if it's at Hungary or Spain.

    2) Fans will argue online that if the Grand Prix was like the qualifying race, such-and-such driver would be leading the championship instead of the other one(s). It seems to be designed to create controversy and publicity.

    3) How do you sort the order for the start of the qualifying race? Friday practice times?

    4) Sandbagging might be an issue for the positions that don't score points if they decide to do a reverse grid. Some drivers would be competing for the lower position by trying to cross the line behind others. It would be disastrous.

    5) Did the teams seriously agree to add more wear and tear to their engines over the course of a season? :lol:

    6) If they decide to stick with qualifying races, at least the horrid rule that forces you to start the race on your Q2 tires will be gone.
     
  9. Pezzarinho17

    Pezzarinho17

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    Q1 and Q2 times get deleted after the session, but the fundamental is what I'm talking about anyway. The aim through each session is to set the best single lap possible, with the outcome being a grid order for Sunday's race.

    Reverse of the Championship order seems most likely, but you still have issues. Where do you place the debutants at Round 1?... Maybe they should bring back the Pre-Qualifying session?...

    They did with the 22nd race being added to the calendar, though they will get one extra MGU-K than this season... Wonder what is worse, running the engines at full tilt in qualifying, or running a 30 minute race at a "reduced" setting?... Presumably the latter, but again would engine designs change to reduce emphasis on a maximum performance setting?...

    ... Unless they say the top 10 must start the (real) race with the tyres they completed Lap 2 on instead of Q2? :lol:
     
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  10. ShiftingGears

    ShiftingGears

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    Wow Monza Q3 was so bad it killed F1 qualifying
     
  11. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    Whatever they do the teams will find a loophole straight away that kills it.
     
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  12. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Of course! The teams are all trying to use Science, Engineering and Economy to solve the "problem" of racing.

    The spectating public want to see Racing, not the above, which they see too much of everyday.

    The inverted heat system well known in karting is a guaranteed, sure-fire, can't-miss system to deliver the appearance of racing to the paying public by a factor of at least 1000%. I'm all for it!! :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  13. Peter.

    Peter.

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    If it ain't broke, dont fix it. We get one mess of a qualifying and they want to change it again? This format has been climactic, had good logistics, and has had us engaged from start to finish for years now.

    They are eliminating the spirit of what qualifying is, adding more confusion and potential mess to the overall weekend, and adding an extra bill for the inevitable damage from accidents that would occur in a risk it for the biscuit sprint race to set the grid. They'd have to steward it too. All of this before Sunday's race.

    Qualifying knockout format is one of the few format and rule changes they have gotten absolutely spot on over the past few decades.
     
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  14. Lewis_Hamilton_

    Lewis_Hamilton_

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    I'd like:
    Friday P1 and P2
    Saturday Qualifying as it currently is, then a 1/3 distance sprint race.
    Sunday full distance race with the entire grid order in reverse from Saturday's sprint race results
    But that's just me.
     
  15. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    No one would want to win the sprint race, especially not the front-runners.
     
  16. Lewis_Hamilton_

    Lewis_Hamilton_

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    That would depend on the scoring system given, no?
     
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  17. Grand Prix

    Grand Prix Premium

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    Howabout we go back to lottery sorted grids in a 4x3x4 configuration instead of 2x2? Or maybe even just a 3x2x3 grid. Most of the tracks are wide enough. :lol:
     
  18. Pezzarinho17

    Pezzarinho17

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    Talks of a qualifying race on Saturday started a long time before the Italian Grand Prix, but the events there have certainly heated up the topic.

    Probably a throwaway point, but I recall a statement from someone within the FIA or Liberty Media about the 2017 or 2018 F1 game and trying out different rule formats within it. The Championship mode has had reverse grid races / random grid races etc. which are probably just for a "different" way to enjoy the game, but just maybe it is forming some of their research?... Every chance we will try something at least once at the start of 2020, but I expect we will actually see a number of formats trialled...
     
  19. Quakebass

    Quakebass

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    It's an interesting idea, but very important to get it right, it feels like this could end up being another positive feedback loop for top teams if not handled correctly. If its just simply a sprint race with a normal grid start, the top cars/teams will still get poles and naturally float to the top and stay there. I think if this new proposed qualifying has a system that has both rewards and consequences for the main race and/or championship it could actually be better than the current format, or even ride on the back of it, while benefitting bottom teams.

    Example:

    Quali sprint race is in championship order (first race of season could either be decided by an additional qualifying session of current format, or be based on last year's results, perhaps new team(s) being rewarded a front row slot for a kick start). Small amount of championship points are rewarded (maybe something like 5-3-1 for podium order or 5-4-3-2-1 for top 5), and then main race is in reverse qualifying order. This way there's an incentive to go for top of quali, but with more work to do to get big points in the main race.

    Alternatively, quali starts in reverse championship order, and then sets the grid order for the main race, everything else from above the same. Either of these could make Monaco or Spain very interesting.

    Downside of first order could be top teams artificially going slow in the sprint race to lock top spots in the main race. Reverse championship+reverse quali would seem to have the most "equalization" processes, however I feel like part of the allure of F1 is the outright performance of the cars highlighted, and not having the fastest at the front as a reward for pace at any point in a race weekend could take away from some of the spectacle.

    ---

    While typing that out I came up with an idea of combining the current system with my "theorized" new system, which could be awesome (in my head). "Traditional" qualifying (the Q1, 2, and 3 system we all know) decides the order of the quali sprint race, which has the small theoretical championship point reward (5-3-1 or 5-4-3-2-1). Results of the sprint race set the reverse order of the main race.

    That still leaves an opportunity for top teams to fudge the sprint for ideal main race grid spots, so maybe adding in an additional pole position point could keep teams a little more honest? Also a difficulty with this system could be the additional engine mileage, so maybe F1 could open up the allotment to four per team before penalties come into play.

    No matter what happens, I just hope there's something in the system that lets bottom/struggling teams make some sort of gain.
     
  20. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

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    Alan Jones in the F1 podcast makes a good point. There's too much testing in F1 nowadays. 3 practice sessions are overkill. By the time you get to the race everyone knows what they're doing and that doesn't create any opportunities for surprises. If you look at the craziest race this year (German GP), it's precisely because nobody knows what they're doing in the rain and it offers up some totally crazy racing, strategies and mistakes. Not saying every race should be like that, and the best team/driver will still win in the long run by probability, but by introducing some unknowns we can have smaller teams pulling an upset every once in a while.

    My proposals:

    1) Limit pre season testing to just 3 days - 1 day for each driver and 1 day for young driver test. Only if a team misses a test day because they have no car like Williams then they are allowed a "catch up" day. Mechanical failure or accident making you sit out half a day? Tough luck, no replacement for you.

    2) Cut practice to 1x1h session only on Saturday.

    3) Quali on Sunday morning, 1 hour session, free for all. Some teams might forego ultimate grid position to better hone their setup/strategy, while others might chose to just do hotlaps the whole time and go into the race blind. 1 point for pole position.

    4) Race on Sunday afternoon as usual, no reverse grid bs. The team principals made a suggestion in this weekend's conference that power unit penalties should be changed to time penalties in the race (either tacked on at the end or served as stop & go in pits), and I agree with that solution instead of the ridiculous 100 grid penalties or half the cars not even starting the race in the position they qualified bs we had in the past.
     
  21. TenEightyOne

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    That really makes it more likely that you get unreliable cars at the start of the season. Finding out something breaks on Day One of the first test does not let manufacture and test a new part by Day Three. That hurts the smaller, lower-budget teams who can't afford to engineer five alternatives to every solution ahead of time. Mandating young driver tests is good idea, but I think most teams run a young/dev driver at one of the tests?

    I would have opposed this in the past but with more races per season I think something like this makes sense.

    The 1 hour quali was changed for a very good reason - it was ****. Removing the practice/setup time won't really help that, I think. This favours the big-budget teams whose simulator work will already have been calibrated before the first practice session. As usual we'd end up with events where the track was only properly populated for the final ten minutes.

    The time penalty doesn't really work, it favours (again) the big teams who have a far better chance of building the time penalty margin over their rivals than the midfield teams do - a five second pit-stop addition for Mercedes is going to damage them far less than the same penalty for Alfa Romeo.

    With the greatest of respect for Alan Jones he's from a time when the margins and tolerances were far greater. The above proposals could easily lead to a situation where several teams are 1 or 2 seconds off the leader's pace on race laps. We might have a surprise leader (unlikely given the big teams' resources) but no improvement in actual racing.

    The answer is to improve the tyres so that the drivers can push on them throughout the life of the rubber rather than having to perform the ridiculous heat cycles that we've seen over the last few seasons, and to improve the followability of the aero package. It seems like these things are finally coming together so I'm not sure that gimmicky bollocks is really the way to go right now.
     
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  22. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    Grid penalties are the best way to sort out power unit problems. The teams complain about it and hate doing it - which means it works as a penalty.

    It means that as soon as the race starts, the penalties are dealt with. Time penalties at the end of the race is a disaster. Look at Canada, when the first car to cross the line didn't win. Do you really want something like Monza with 4 drivers with engine penalties finishing 1, 2, 7 and 12, but then getting pushed back to 4, 6, 9 and 14. The guy in 3rd will just sit there knowing he'll win, rather than fight for the victory. If a safety car appears near the end, all the engine penalty guys go to the back and it ruins the result.

    Grid Penalties are perfect as it properly penalises the team and the penalty is cleared by the time the race starts - which is the most important part.
     
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  23. twitcher

    twitcher

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    I don’t necessarily have a problem with the current quali format, aside from one issue I’ll mention. Overall it’s decent though. The format of the whole weekend though, that could maybe use a shake-up.

    Friday - no change necessary....other than perhaps dropping one of the practice sessions. Less preparation seems to produce good races more often than not.

    Saturday Morning - I would eliminate Sat Morning practice, replace it with qualifying under the current knock-out format. Results from this quali session would set grid positions for 11-20. The top 10 drivers from Sat morning quali would be entered in a Top 10 single lap Shootout, which would take place Sunday Morning.

    Saturday Afternoon - Sprint Race time! Saturday afternoon would have a short sprint race, roughly half the distance of a full GP. Short enough that the race could be done on one set of tires that are hard as marbles, pits stops only required to fix damage or switch to Inters/wets. The only thing I can’t decide about this race is the starting order, but I’m leaning towards either full reverse grid based on the results of the previous GP, or reverse top 10 based on the results of the previous GP. I don’t think reverse of quali is good, I don’t want to punish drivers who do well in quali. I think reverse of the top 10 finishers from the previous race would add enough spice without really punishing the top teams for being fast. Points would be awarded for this race, but only half of what is awarded in the feature race on Sunday.

    Sunday Morning - a Top 10 Shootout, similar to what happens in Aussie Supercars. Running order is determined by placement in the top 10 of Saturday’s quali session, with fastest going last on Sunday Morning. Like I said before, I kind of like the current quali format, but my main gripe with it is that as a viewer, we get to see so little of the majority of the laps being done. The camera only focuses on 1 car, and we’re lucky if we get to see a full lap. We basically see nothing from the laps of the people who qualify 5th through 10th. Contrast that to the top 10 shootout in Supercars, where you get to see every inch of the quali lap of the top 10. We get more opportunity to see the drivers on display, it’s more exposure for sponsors. I’d go as far as to add in the bit where the commentators talk to each driver in the car after they finish their lap.

    Sunday Afternoon - the main feature race, same as we have it now.



    Overall, it’s more racing action over a weekend for fans to enjoy. It’s more challenge thrown at the drivers and teams with the sprint race, but without punishing the top teams for being fast too harshly.