Faster with ABS off?

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Seismica

Seismica

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I've always used ABS, as i've always used a DS3 with the square button as the brake. But now I have a G27, and I can modulate the brake pedal much more effectively. I've been reading up on it, and oddly enough before 5 minutes ago I didn't know what Trail Braking was, but since I got my G27 a couple of weeks ago i've been doing it naturally. It's like modulating the brakes is the fastest way around a corner rather than slamming on them hard like I used to. I've started modulating the brakes everywhere, and i'm wondering why I even need ABS.

So my question is; is it faster/more beneficial to have ABS off or on 1? Also, if I practice with ABS off in GT5, will this go some way towards picking up iRacing or another sim in the future quite easily? (I tried rFactor with a DS3 once, not a pleasant experience, locking up everywhere - does GT5 replicate locking up quite well?)
 
It doesn't effect your speed so to speak as much as your lap times. Some cars will lock up the wheels when you brake, and that will slow you down more then you need.

When I take a corner fast I generally will slap the brakes just before or midway through the turn. I have ABS set to 10 even though I probably don't need it.

Also to note, ABS is part of the TC system.
 
your not directly faster but maybe smoother depending on your skills. This may then lead to faster times.
I have ABS set to 1 but as my pedals offer FF and the power needed to hit the ABS can be adjusted im now very comfortable with breaking hard without either locking the tires nor enabling the ABS.
It will happen, that someone brakes hard into the corner and overtake you before the apex. These folks are not getting the apex right though (and you should have them directly afterwards again) or they burn their tires hard. Braking smooth gives you basically extra laps per stint.
 
I've been driving with a G27 and ABS off, practically since day 1. In many of the clan events I run, we have a gentleman's agreement not to use it. ABS, at least in GT5, acts as a form of stability control under heavy braking and effectively allows you to slam full on the brakes under nearly all conditions and it will not only slow the car put keep the car pointed in the right direction. Driving without ABS is more of a challenge because in many cases you need to rethink your braking points, your corner entry and the lines you take approaching corners. You're forced to start thinking about weight transfer and balance that you simply don't have to consider with ABS. Likewise, if you partake in longer, endurance races, constantly locking up the brakes will increase tire wear and force you to pit more often.

Is it realistic? Yes, I would say it's pretty good and highlights some of the positives of GT5's physics engine that are otherwise masked behind ABS. The wheel gets light (as it should) and you can't turn if the fronts are locked. If you're in an off camber corner or the weight shifts too rapidly, you can easily enter a spin that's difficult or in same cases, impossible to recover from. I think a lot of GTP members are simply too young to have driven a road car in the real world without ABS and they simply don't know the treachery of braking late or skidding in the rain and feeling the car dance all over the road as you struggle to maintain control. It wasn't until my 6th vehicle that I finally had ABS.

Will it help you in other racing sims? Yes, probably. But make sure you adjust the brake bias in GT5 to compensate.

Is driving without ABS faster? Others (with big egos) will disagree but from my months of experience and those who race with me, I would say no. Driving with ABS at 1 will almost always be faster than ABS 0, unless you're really an Alien who can hit your lines just perfectly every lap with other worldly precision. So no, it's not any quicker. But it adds an element of realism and skill into the fray that's otherwise missing and makes races that much more challenging as a result.
 
Since the british lightweight seasonals, I've often found myself turning ABS off as well.
As I'm using a DS3 (gas and brake=L2 and R2), it takes a little getting used to, and when it doesn't exactly make me faster, it requires me to be more focused as I always have to try and keep the wheels from locking. This makes my driving more smooth, consistent and fun. Great for endurance races, if the car is set up properly.
I would suppose it's pretty much the same deal with a wheel.

*Edit* also, spot on description jjaisli
 
Well, yeah, adjust it, sure, but 1/0 is a little extreme. It will almost double your braking distances. Depending on the car and tires, I use anywhere from 6/2 to 3/0.
 
Doncowleone
It doesn't effect your speed so to speak as much as your lap times. Some cars will lock up the wheels when you brake, and that will slow you down more then you need.

When I take a corner fast I generally will slap the brakes just before or midway through the turn. I have ABS set to 10 even though I probably don't need it.

Also to note, ABS is part of the TC system.
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And if you lock up, you can't turn worth a 🤬
 
With no ABS I generally set the brakes to 10 on whichever end doesn't lock up first, usually the front on most cars. If it's still difficult, backing it down to 9 or 8 takes care of it. You will stop faster, but you do have to be careful as it's easy to lock up. Gradually applying the brake helps. Not saying that's best but it works for me.

But I wouldn't recommend that for getting used to it... something like 4/3 or 6/4 would be a better starting point. The brakes in GT5 are REALLY sensitive, it took me a long time before i got really comfortable with them and could start turning them up regularly.

Settings like 1/0 or 2/0 are only if you can't handle the brakes at all, and should only be used for a little while until you turn them up a bit or go back to ABS. You won't lock up but you'll have to brake a mile early.

Also: rFactor is quite playable with the DS3 sticks, at least with TC on. The game takes a lot of getting used to overall, much more difficult than GT5, but the brakes are WAY easier to use.
 
In my opinion, at least with my DFGT, the braking without ABS on is the most unrealistic part of the entire game, neck and neck with the drafting effect. The braking is way, way, way too sensitive without ABS on. Moving the pedal 20% with brakes at 1/0will lock them up with a lot of cars. Perhaps with a better wheel/pedal system I could correct for this, but there is no FF or adjustments of any kind for braking with the DFGT. I've tried to make the transition several times, and about to once again, and can do it with some cars, like the GT500's, but with most it's near impossible for me with a DFGT.
 
Johnnypenso
In my opinion, at least with my DFGT, the braking without ABS on is the most unrealistic part of the entire game, neck and neck with the drafting effect. The braking is way, way, way too sensitive without ABS on. Moving the pedal 20% with brakes at 1/0will lock them up with a lot of cars. Perhaps with a better wheel/pedal system I could correct for this, but there is no FF or adjustments of any kind for braking with the DFGT. I've tried to make the transition several times, and about to once again, and can do it with some cars, like the GT500's, but with most it's near impossible for me with a DFGT.
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+1. GT5 ABS actually makes cars brake more like real cars do IMO. ABS off is completely unrealistic.
 
That's because with ABS off you have to set first a correct front biased, neutral brake distribution, which is to be set - as a general guide - to about 85% front bias (FF cars), 75% (FR cars), or 70-65% (RR cars). The gripper the tires, the more front bias you will need, as more weight will be transfered to front wheels when braking. These general settings are intended for comfort soft or sports hard tires, but might work with better tyres as well.
 
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Obsidian-2
+1. GT5 ABS actually makes cars brake more like real cars do IMO. ABS off is completely unrealistic.
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No, it's not unrealistic. I agree for modern cars that have ABS. But turning on ABS for cars like the 1966 Jaguar doesn't make it realistic at all. We have members in our group who manage to brake fine with both the DS3 and a DFGT. You might try calibrating your pedals first. Push the brake and gas all the way to the floor when you first start. You won't need to do it again until you restart the game. It should be fine after that.
 
Doncowleone
It doesn't effect your speed so to speak as much as your lap times. Some cars will lock up the wheels when you brake, and that will slow you down more then you need.

When I take a corner fast I generally will slap the brakes just before or midway through the turn. I have ABS set to 10 even though I probably don't need it.

Also to note, ABS is part of the TC system.
Click to expand...

ABS part of the TC system?? They are totaly diffrient systems..
 
leexr2i
ABS part of the TC system?? They are totaly diffrient systems..
Click to expand...

Usually, they are the same system, but TCS is a secondary function of the ABS system.

Not always, but usually.

Also, with a DS3, I find ABS 1 is a little more realistic because I can't really control my braking quite as accurately anyway. It's a little bit of help that doesn't break the realism very much, but actually makes it a little more like what I'd be like in the car.

Poor man's abs is just to modulate their braking according to lockup.
 
It's faster having abs off on the license tests that make you stop in the x.
Other than that every tune I've ever seen recommends ABS at 1.
 
jjaisli
I've been driving with a G27 and ABS off, practically since day 1. In many of the clan events I run, we have a gentleman's agreement not to use it. ABS, at least in GT5, acts as a form of stability control under heavy braking and effectively allows you to slam full on the brakes under nearly all conditions and it will not only slow the car put keep the car pointed in the right direction. Driving without ABS is more of a challenge because in many cases you need to rethink your braking points, your corner entry and the lines you take approaching corners. You're forced to start thinking about weight transfer and balance that you simply don't have to consider with ABS. Likewise, if you partake in longer, endurance races, constantly locking up the brakes will increase tire wear and force you to pit more often.

Is it realistic? Yes, I would say it's pretty good and highlights some of the positives of GT5's physics engine that are otherwise masked behind ABS. The wheel gets light (as it should) and you can't turn if the fronts are locked. If you're in an off camber corner or the weight shifts too rapidly, you can easily enter a spin that's difficult or in same cases, impossible to recover from. I think a lot of GTP members are simply too young to have driven a road car in the real world without ABS and they simply don't know the treachery of braking late or skidding in the rain and feeling the car dance all over the road as you struggle to maintain control. It wasn't until my 6th vehicle that I finally had ABS.

Will it help you in other racing sims? Yes, probably. But make sure you adjust the brake bias in GT5 to compensate.

Is driving without ABS faster? Others (with big egos) will disagree but from my months of experience and those who race with me, I would say no. Driving with ABS at 1 will almost always be faster than ABS 0, unless you're really an Alien who can hit your lines just perfectly every lap with other worldly precision. So no, it's not any quicker. But it adds an element of realism and skill into the fray that's otherwise missing and makes races that much more challenging as a result.
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Very good explanation 👍

So ABS is slower the majority of the time, but the added realism and challenge it brings makes the game more fun. I think I might trial using ABS off in A-spec mode to start with, see if it works for me. And you'd be dead right about people on this forum being too young to experience it in a real car :)

sniper338
It's faster having abs off on the license tests that make you stop in the x.
Other than that every tune I've ever seen recommends ABS at 1.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the test that prompted me making this thread. I remember managing this test (IC-1) with my DS3 on my old save, but on my GTP_ tag account i've been using a wheel/pedals and regardless of how good the start was or how spot on my braking was, I was always around a tenth too slow. Turned the ABS off and I smashed the gold time by 3 tenths. It tells me that in a straight line at least, ABS off slows you down quicker
 
Seismica
That's exactly the test that prompted me making this thread. I remember managing this test (IC-1) with my DS3 on my old save, but on my GTP_ tag account i've been using a wheel/pedals and regardless of how good the start was or how spot on my braking was, I was always around a tenth too slow. Turned the ABS off and I smashed the gold time by 3 tenths. It tells me that in a straight line at least, ABS off slows you down quicker
Click to expand...
Same with me, I was hitting my stopping mark perfect on the last one and I was still missing gold by a few thousands. I messed around with the ABS and got gold the first try when I turned them off.
 
Morgoth_666
Actually that would be called "correct braking technique."
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You're right, exactly. But I can't feel the lockup and I can't really modulate my brakes as I would in the real world so well with the DS3, so ABS1 just provides that little extra.

It's the feel I like, anyway.
 
MM1000
You're right, exactly. But I can't feel the lockup and I can't really modulate my brakes as I would in the real world so well with the DS3, so ABS1 just provides that little extra.

It's the feel I like, anyway.
Click to expand...

Proper feel would be nice, don't know if it's available outside of gazillion dollar rigs. My Clubsports supposedly have a vibration for it but it doesn't seem to work right and I've never felt it at all in GT5. I'm quite used to using exaggerated tire noise like what GT5 has to "feel" the edge of grip. Doesn't mean I don't get it wrong half the time but I have fun trying. Which is kind of the point of playing racing games anyway for me.

I still haven't reached the point yet with my new pedals that I'm as good at it or as reliable as with my old crappy plastic Driving Force pedals. Like learning to walk all over again(and it took probably 2 months the first time).
 
Once again I'm trying ABS off and this time I think I might have it, at least for street cars of <550pp on racing softs and racing cars which have much better grip and stopping force and don't lock up as easily. The trick for me with my DFGT was this:

First, I inserted a piece of foam copper pipe insulation behind the brake pedal to give it some resistance and feel. In stock form a feather could depress the pedal and lock up the tires. This seems to be working so far. I just cut off a 6 inch or so piece and dropped it in there.

Second, with ABS off, you can brake real hard at high speed with 100% braking force, but you have to ease off and even modulate when you reach slower speeds and especially as you begin your turn in. If you keep the pedal depressed all the way, you will lock up, regardless of your brake settings.

Third, it seems that brake balance settings of 2/1 and 3/1 will work, at least on the half dozen cars I tried it on. The key is to blast down a long straight like at Grand Valley and floor the brakes to see which one locks up first and when. If you are locking up at 140 km/h you need to ease off on the balancer numbers. If you more easily lock up the front you need to ease off on front balance..etc.

It's not easy, but it has advantages. Braking over a rise is especially tricky, like at Deep Forest and Trial Mountain but not impossible. A well balanced tune to begin with helps a lot. I'll keep trying it out, and will try it out online in the next few days and see how it goes. It's one thing to run around alone and another altogether to do it in traffic.
 
I hardly ever run ABS, I sometimes do on newer cars, but that's pretty rare.

I can be way more agressive with the brakes than I can with ABS on, you can squeeze more braking out of the brakes, get better weight transfer and annoy people on online lobby's by making it impossible for them to see if they're being overly annoying :P.
 
I normally set ABS to 1, I think this is almost the basic setting. I keep this for all cars. Some people do their homework on a car though and if ABS wasn't fitted, then they won't select on their gt5 version.
 
I have tried with abs off and I keep spinning out while braking. I have the lsd set to 20 for braking sensitivity but I am attributing my lack of braking control to still getting used to the dfgt. For now I have all cars at 1.
 
Recently I've turned off ABS and I must say it adds a whole new dimension to GT5. In the old days before ABS=0 my left foot was almost an on/off switch with my DFGT. In other words my braking was absolutely horrible. Which was a shame because learning how to brake properly is just as important as throttle control if not more important. With ABS you can just slam the brakes with almost no consequences. There is some kind of stability control working in the background.

The first time I turned off ABS I was like FFFFFUUUUUUU :mad:, this is hard. My wheels were constantly blocking and I could almost never tell when they started to block. But as I got more used to it and readjusted the brake balance (3-1 is a great start for most stock production cars) I could definitely see my braking improve. I won't say that I'm faster at braking than with ABS on, but my braking was way more smoother. A great help is the little picture of your car in the left bottom corner. Just apply hard pressure and gradually release your brake such that your tires never turn red. The sound of tires squeaking is another aid to determine when your tires are going to block. As you put more hours into it you will become familiar with ABS off and know how much pressure you can apply without blocking your tires.

At this point without the added stability control of the ABS you also have to rethink how you should approach corners. A good example is the first corner of Grand Valley. Just try it out yourself with and without ABS and see how different the braking methods are. Without ABS weight transfer becomes significant more important.

To answer your question. ABS turned off does not make you produce faster lap times as you can see in the seasonal time trials. All fast times are set with ABS=1. But it does make you go faster since it makes you rethink how to use the brakes as efficiently as possible. You will drive smoother and the smoother you drive, the faster you will go.
 
ABS is always going to be slower. Why? Because when it senses the brakes are close to locking, it releases them, that's why when you're in your car and you slam the brakes, it judders, makes a lot of noise and sounds like you're going over cobble roads.

If you don't use ABS, the brakes don't release.
 
The GT5 ABS doesn't do that. It brakes by using all tires at their grip limit and keeps them there continuously and smoothlessly no matter what. It doesn't work in impulses (by quickly braking/releasing). It's unrealistic and too much efficient compared to real life systems.
 

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