Fed up of racing against people who don't use sim steering.

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imported_Tiddy

imported_Tiddy

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Whenever I join a game it always seems to be that no one is using sim steering in the room, I always use sim steering whether it's online or offline.

What generally seems to happen is one of these:

1. I get spun out because someone purposely leans on my 5-7 o'clock ( I accept this happened before the patch but it was much easier to catch slides then than it is now)

2. I watch someone fly off into the distance because they can get the power down easier out of corners as the game does the work for them in correcting the slide.( you can tell this because they only ever make one movement of the wheel in replays as the car never tries to swing back the other way as the game dampens this effect for you, sim steering doesn't so you can or do end up over correcting at times). It's frustrating because I'm now lapping slower than I did before just because I play the game on its most difficult settings.

Now I don't mind if people used normal steering before the patch, that's ok but I'd bet on it that most of these people didn't and are only using it now because it gives them an advantage over others.
 
Hate to break this to you but sim steering is broken, its not realistic at all. Its more like a 900 degree drift setting so I switched to normal after the patch and I would advise you to do the same untill they fix it
 
hennessey86
Hate to break this to you but sim steering is broken, its not realistic at all. Its more like a 900 degree drift setting so I switched to normal after the patch and I would advise you to do the same untill they fix it
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There's nothing wrong with it except the linearity. As far as correcting slides goes; that's how a real car drives. Don't like it, stop hurling the car into turns with the gas pedal to the floor and expecting to be able to control it. Those of us with experience in other sim racers and/or real cars know this is realistic and feels right.
 
yup, linearity inconsistency doesn't make a "drift setting", afterall the physics never changes, normal steering just levels out your raw input and ultimately you are loosing some control.

but then, if you can't beat them, join them, that's what I'll say.
 
buttsneeze
There's nothing wrong with it except the linearity. As far as correcting slides goes; that's how a real car drives. Don't like it, stop hurling the car into turns with the gas pedal to the floor and expecting to be able to control it. Those of us with experience in other sim racers and/or real cars know this is realistic and feels right.
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Even thomas himself from fanatec said that the simulation steering feels like a drift setting and normal is more realistic. The amount of steering imput needed to correct a slide is unrealistic. As for experience in other sims, I play GTR2, RBR, race pro and gt5 aswell at the minute and have been simracing for over 10 years so its not lack of experience I assure you.
 
hennessey86
Even thomas himself from fanatec said that the simulation steering feels like a drift setting and normal is more realistic. The amount of steering imput needed to correct a slide is unrealistic. As for experience in other sims, I play GTR2, RBR, race pro and gt5 aswell at the minute and have been simracing for over 10 years so its not lack of experience I assure you.
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Thomas has no idea what he's talking about, then. Here's in-car of drifting a real car. Look at how much steering lock he applies and how fast the steering wheel has to be moved. It's EXACTLY like Forza with sim steering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDNfLPXRw8U

Here's another video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKQK92fKa-E

If it's not a lack of experience making you think it's "wrong", it's a lack of observation or a lack of skill. As I've said before, those of us that know how to drive and know how a real car acts when oversteering aren't having any problems.
 
buttsneeze
Thomas has no idea what he's talking about, then. Here's in-car of drifting a real car. Look at how much steering lock he applies and how fast the steering wheel has to be moved. It's EXACTLY like Forza with sim steering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDNfLPXRw8U

Here's another video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKQK92fKa-E

If it's not a lack of experience making you think it's "wrong", it's a lack of observation or a lack of skill. As I've said before, those of us that know how to drive and know how a real car acts when oversteering aren't having any problems.
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I set some very fast times with simulation steering post patch and trust me I do not have a lack of skill, I race with a guy on line his gamertag is RolandBlazit. He is a profesional racing driver and I think ill take his word and my experience with sims to no that the simulation steering in forza is not accurate, it does not take more than 180 degrees of rotation to pull the back end of a car back in if you have to much throttle, with simulation steering its like the back end is a pendulam and just because its a challenge to keep it check does not make it realistic. I will be more than happy to race you with sim steering on to show any doubts about my skill are unfounded. I'm not saying i am the best in the world but I am fairly fast. Oh and just out of curiosity you do use a wheel dont you and how many degrees of rotation do you use.
 
I don't like where this thread is headed. The topic is not about driver skill or whether sim steering is better or not.

Jerome
 
Jump_Ace
I don't like where this thread is headed. The topic is not about driver skill or whether sim steering is better or not.

Jerome
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Just set up a thread "simulation vs normal steering", I think its an interesting point and it will be good to see who prefers what :)
 
hennessey86
I set some very fast times with simulation steering post patch and trust me I do not have a lack of skill, I race with a guy on line his gamertag is RolandBlazit. He is a profesional racing driver and I think ill take his word and my experience with sims to no that the simulation steering in forza is not accurate, it does not take more than 180 degrees of rotation to pull the back end of a car back in if you have to much throttle, with simulation steering its like the back end is a pendulam and just because its a challenge to keep it check does not make it realistic. I will be more than happy to race you with sim steering on to show any doubts about my skill are unfounded. I'm not saying i am the best in the world but I am fairly fast. Oh and just out of curiosity you do use a wheel dont you and how many degrees of rotation do you use.
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So after watching these videos where the guy clearly uses all 900 degrees you still stick by your (very wrong) point of view? There's no use arguing with you then. I don't care who has experience with what or who thinks he has the most racing credentials. Anyone who claims you only need 180 degrees to counter a slide is WRONG, period. It's hard to control a slide in Forza, very hard. As it should be, as it is in real life and in every good racing sim. If you can't handle it, put it on normal, but DON'T spread false information about it not being realistic.
 
he is on about correcting a minor power oversteer and true you don't need 180 or more lock for that usually, but that's just as true in Forza.

I just have to state again a steering setting isn't going to magically change the physics and makes a car less realistic. What simulation steering does is give you more direct control, and imprecise dirty control will lead to more movement with the car, however it won't make the game more difficult then it originally is.

I also will be very interested to see if you can name a racing sim that is easier to drift than Forza except LFS (which has a very forgiving and "soapy" tire curve")
 
There's absolutely nothing wrong with oversteer recovery in Forza. For very minor slides you can still correct with less than 180 obviously, like real life.

Here's a video of a guy in an Audi A4 (not even RWD) losing control and using all 900 degrees to save it (skip to :50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbN3drqcBAw&feature=related

I've done probably hundreds of races with sim steering since the patch, online or offline, without ever spinning out. Most of those races were B, A, or S where oversteer is a very real possibility and I've always managed to save it.
 
This has gone a different way to how I expected really. The main gripe I was trying to get across is that people now have a serious advantage over me that they didn't have before purely because the game allows you to pick a setting where the car is easier to drive and faster.

It's not like the other assists where they made the car easier to drive but slower, using normal steering actually makes you a lot faster, I'll run some laps later if anyone wants proof but it's obvious.

For example last night I was racing on catalunya, me and one other player were using sim steering. On the first lap as we approached the end complex i was running 4th out of 8th (started 7th) in my super grippy rwd datsun 510 so i was expected to make up some more places through the complex. The exact reverse happened though as the non sim steering players were able to accelerate out of the corners much sooner than me and coming up to the chicane I was already 6th before someone ended my race by leaning on my 5 o'clock until I span.

That's not proper racing. That's people taking advantage of a system that gives you a fundamental advantage over other drivers who choose to play the game as it should be.

So all my handling cars which won races regularly before the patch are now totally useless as they're no longer a lot faster in the corners and are obviously still as slow on straights.

I don't really know how they could fix this but currently you can't race online with sim steering against those that use regular steering, it's akin to racing against a person on GT5 that uses Skid Recovery force. In fact thinking about it now, it's exactly like that.
 
As soon as you involve different car build and tuning the comparison isn't controlled, how are you doing in production spec racing rooms?

I have yet seen anyone quicker than me beyond reason with 900 degree sim steering and I win 3 out of 4 times, in fact I barely notice what control method other runs.

It may help people who have problem controlling with all aids off but it doesn't give you magical grip, it's just an illusion when all your minor mistakes are erased.
 
There's no doubt that simulation steering is harder than normal because it's unassisted. However you can definitely still be competitive, it's just a lot more challenging and unforgiving. I agree controller users and those using normal steering have a bit of an unfair advantage over us hardcore wheel users, but there's not much we can do about it. The physical act of driving the car is the perfect level of challenge for me, it's just a bit too easy for everyone else so they have an easier time at the limit.
 
buttsneeze
it's just a bit too easy for everyone else so they have an easier time at the limit.
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This. I probably leave a decent chunk of time on the table purely because I don't drive at 110% anymore because the more you throw the car around the greater the chance of you having an off now that it's more difficult to hold a slide.

I've been exiting a corner numerous times whilst alongside someone and had to back out of it because the car attempted to break free under acceleration.

It's just much more difficult for wheel users to be on the limit now than before and when you're racing online that's where you need to be all the time :(
 
^ I agree completely with JJ72, anything that gets people to drive more carefully is a plus on realism. Racing game fans have obsessed over infinitesimal gains in laptimes for years because games were simple enough to allow such devoted number-chasing. FM4 hasn't eliminated that, but it's moving in the right direction.

Tiddy
1. I get spun out because someone purposely leans on my 5-7 o'clock ( I accept this happened before the patch but it was much easier to catch slides then than it is now)
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This isn't really related to other people using sim steering or not, is it...?

Tiddy
2. I watch someone fly off into the distance because they can get the power down easier out of corners as the game does the work for them in correcting the slide.( you can tell this because they only ever make one movement of the wheel in replays as the car never tries to swing back the other way as the game dampens this effect for you, sim steering doesn't so you can or do end up over correcting at times).
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How do you know they're not just countersteering with one movement because they're used to it? Also, if you get the power down out of a corner without kicking the tail out in the first place, you ought to be faster than any corner-exit "drift king."

buttsneeze
I agree controller users and those using normal steering have a bit of an unfair advantage over us hardcore wheel users, but there's not much we can do about it.
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You wheel users have "a bit of an unfair advantage" over us controller users because you have (almost) total control over where the steering goes, and don't have to correct or "zig-zag" to keep the nose pointed in the right direction.

It's a tradeoff, not a handicap/advantage either way, IMO. 👍
 
You'd have to do quite a few laps to get some sort of statistical analysis on the two steering modes, and that's assuming the laps were 'perfectly identical' meaning not once you'd get some minor slip in one way and not in the other with grip. Still, a difference of 0.8 seconds is fairly close. I'd peg the 3rd lap to be tires warmed up properly. My 1st lap is usually the slowest because I start off not moving so grip isn't optimal.

I will soon enough experience this normal vs sim steering with a wheel. Right now with a pad I usually race in sim steering and after the patch it is harder to keep grip coming out of a turn while gassing it, as well as it's harder to keep in control if the car gets squirl. Before the patch it was easy to snap the car back and get control but post patch if I try that I just end up spinning out.
 
I've used simulation since I got the game, makes it more challenging since the cars are so damn tail-happy. Also, coming from GT5, I was shocked that this game has auto-braking and rewinds by default. First thing I switched off.
 
Skier
I've used simulation since I got the game, makes it more challenging since the cars are so damn tail-happy. Also, coming from GT5, I was shocked that this game has auto-braking and rewinds by default. First thing I switched off.
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Auto-Braking on by default, yeah I dunno. But you'd be surprised how popular Rewind is. With oblivious brake-checking AI it's not that bad a feature.

Not sure why you're shocked coming from the game that forces you to disable TCS and stability control on every car you get individually. ;)
 
"Fed up of racing against people who don't use sim steering"

  1. Enter the Community tab
  2. Select 'Race Online'
  3. Select 'Create race'
  4. Select 'Race Setup'
  5. Change the lobby type to 'Public'
  6. Now press RB twice
  7. Scroll down to 'Easiest Steering allowed' and select 'SIMULATION'
  8. Now set up whatever other settings you would like, track, laps etc
  9. Save the settings and go back to the lobby
  10. This part is as important as the rest, Change the race title to something obvious like 'SIM steer ONLY'

Once all this is done there can be no excuses or moaning at why you are being beaten. :cheers:
People cried for these options in fm3, yet people barely use them in fm4.
 
Motarded, your idea is great, but I wish there was a way to set up a Custom Public lobby and have it behave similar to a T10 hopper. I.e. the race with start automatically, the maps changes automatically, etc. without the host needing to be there.

The problem is that I like racing random people with similar preferences (like no assists, sim steering, longer laps), but it takes a long time for people to join my custom lobby. I usually walk away and check back from time-to-time. If I am lucky, someone will be there and we race a bit, then more people will join and the lobby grows-and-grows with more-and-more people.

The problem is that if I am not there when some joins, that person leaves and the lobby remains empty forever. My friends don't necessarily have the same preferences as me, so invites isn't the solution.

If there is a way to allow a *custom* lobby without an active host, it would be great. I can just setup my preferences, leave my xbox on all day, and join in whenever I have time. If the host leaves, then automatically transfer the host to someone else.

I doubt this will happen. In the PC world, I'd setup a host server and let it run 24/7. It was always popular, and I'd join in whenever I have time.
 
Simulation steering is not perfect or totally realistic. There are many occasions where you would get more grip IRL.

Us who do trackdays IRL can understand that... <--(see what I did there?)

That said, its my favorite steering mode by far, the one that is the closest to real life. But definitely not perfect.
 
Wolfe
Auto-Braking on by default, yeah I dunno. But you'd be surprised how popular Rewind is. With oblivious brake-checking AI it's not that bad a feature.

Not sure why you're shocked coming from the game that forces you to disable TCS and stability control on every car you get individually. ;)
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I've never bothered with those settings on GT5, when I got the game I hadn't raced in years. I'm finally getting good again, so I guess it's time to see what to turn off to make GT5 more challenging.
 
Stability control has always been a horrible handicap in GT games, like racing with an anchor tied to the rear bumper, IMO. You might find you enjoy GT5 way more without it. 👍
 
I'm going to admit I was wrong on this. I've now done significantly more racing online and accept that people who use 'normal' steering don't have the significant advantage that I previously thought. Once I'd driven more with 'sim' steering I'm now equally as fast as with 'normal' steering and in some cases faster.
 
Normal steering I find more fun in most scenarios. Sim steering is frustrating, not every car needs 900 degrees of opposite lock to catch a tiny slide.
 

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