"FF Challenge - Professional" The Write-up

[Der Alta]

I needed to pick up a Honda Type R vehicle, so I jumped in the Celica SSII that I won for the Altezza Series. Added the oil change, Super slicks, Lightweight 1&2, Racing Muffler, NA Stage 3, Port polish, Engine balancing and a Racing Chip. I also added Racing Suspension, Sport Brakes, Triple plate clutch, Racing flywheel, and Full transmission.

I had to race this multiple times until I finally won it. Seems that when you are under 320 Hp you’ll face the Spoon Civic and the Beetle cup car. The Civic doesn’t pit until lap 9 and the Beetle doesn’t pit at all. I attempted this stock in the Celica and was 15 seconds down in the first lap. Added more mods, slowly crept towards competitive. I tried different set-ups and skipped different mods here and there, until I could finally keep within 5 seconds of the Civic. My strategy stated that when the Civic pitted I could win. However the Beetle was all over me. Three times it bumped me in the last few corners and sent me off into the ditch.

So I said “%&^% it, and modded the Celica to the hilt. This changed PD’s strategy and I didn’t face either one. Apparently HP is how PD picks your competition.

Deep Forest Raceway

ASM = 3; TCS = 1. Autosetting = 24, Spring rate 11.0 (F); 12.0 (R), and bottomed out the Suspension.

Celica TRD : + 35.700 (pitted on lap 7)
Integra Type R: + 43.998 (pitted on lap 7)
FTO GP: + 45.176
Accord Euro: 1’04.854
Coupe Turbo Plus: + 1’06.014

I completely forgot to write down my Best Lap.

As you can see, the spread was quite large. Had I not balanced the engine, I would have faced the Beetle, and possibly won by a margin of less than a second.

The TRD and I battled for the first 2 laps until I just out ran him. Drifted into many corners, and rocketed out of them. It would benefit many of you to learn the “drift in, accelerate out” approach to corners.

To add one more note, had I added the Brake Balancer, I would have emphasized the front brakes to help me break the back end loose in the final corner. I saw in the replay that I had to excessive understeer on that corner everytime.

Rome Circuit
Beetle Cup Car: + 7.886
Spoon Civic: + 23.965
Celica TRD: + 44.243
Coupe Turbo Plus: + 1’21.641
Accord Euro: + 1’30.567

Best Lap: 1’36.568

This was a tough race, due to facing the Spoon and the Beetle again. The Spoon pitted on lap 9, and the Beetle Didn’t. I wasn't able to take the lead and hold it until lap 6. Up til that point there was less than 1 second separating 1st and 3rd position. On lap 7 I stretched the lead to 2.6+ seconds, and then lap 9 I stretched it to 7+ seconds. It was the first two corners that I kept losing time on. Once I found the proper line I was able to take the lead, and stretch the distance. The Replay helped show this. It also helped showcase my DIRTY driving skills, apparently gained from driving in Boston commuter traffic. “Cutting off” is a polite term for it.

Now, if you compare the previous two races, you’ll see the Coupe 15 seconds off its Deep Forest time. If we figure the Beetle being 1’13 seconds faster, you’ll see that he would have had me by 5 seconds in Deep forest.

Cote D’azur

I changed Rear Camber from 1.0 to 2.5, as tire wear on the rear was always less. Rear Toe out from Neutral to 2.0. Auto Setting at 24

Beetle Cup Car: + 34.795
Celica TRD: + 1’18.578
Integra Type R: + 1’20.949
FTO GP: + 1’43.902
Spoon Civic: + 1’51.701

Best Lap: 1’49.779
Total time: 18’39.355
Average Lap: 1’51.936

Spoon pitted on Lap 8 and the FTO pitted on lap 9. No one else pitted. If there had been 5 more laps, It’s likely I would have lapped the Civic and the FTO. This was by far the easiest of the FF Pro races.

Interesting times on Lap 6 was 1’51.000 and Lap 7 was 1’50.001. I was able just to power away from everyone else. Rear tires were green, I could have added more camber, or a softer compound on the rears.

AO

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by Der Alta
To add one more note, had I added the Brake Balancer, I would have emphasized the front brakes to help me break the back end loose in the final corner. I saw in the replay that I had to excessive understeer on that corner everytime.

I changed Rear Camber from 1.0 to 2.5, as tire wear on the rear was always less. Rear Toe out from Neutral to 2.0. Auto Setting at 24

Rear tires were green, I could have added more camber, or a softer compound on the rears.

Thanks for a thorough writeup! Great stuff. Just a few quick comments about your setups:

You want to emphasize rear braking, not front, if you are understeering. Each tire has a given amount of traction available to it, which physics will distribute between braking and turning. If you reduce the amount of braking the rear wheels are doing (by biasing braking force toward the front wheels), then they have more traction available for turning. This will make your understeer worse. Biasing the braking toward the rear will make the rear tires more likely to break loose, allowing the car to oversteer.

Also, adding camber (technically, negative camber) increases a tire's grip when cornering, and improves the wear pattern because cornering load is distributed over the entire contact patch rather than concentrated on the outside edge. If you are having understeer problems, and your front tires are wearing out much faster than the rears, it is because the front end is not set up properly - not the rear. Dial in 3.0 or so degrees of camber in front, and set the rear to zero toe and zero camber. You will get much more balanced handling in a FF car, and your tire wear will be more evenly distributed. Ditto for softer compounds in the rear. They will increase your grip out back and make your understeer problem worse.

It sounds like you did a lot to increase the grip at the back of the car, and then had to dial in massive toe out in the rear to make the car rotate. I suggest you set the rear alignment back to zeroes. Concentrate on tuning the front end alignment and leave the rear wheels to just hold up that end of the car.

 

[Der Alta]

Thanks for helping out on that. I rarely ever tune my cars, other than bottoming out the suspension.

I was in the mode of thought that if the front brakes had more power to them they would slow quicker. By slowing quicker, and turning sharper, I would in effect lighten the rear of the car giving it less traction there fore easier to break loose. Thus Physics would show that there is not an even distribution. I am braking, then turning while braking. Your theory would hold correct if I turning then braking. I think.

I was having an problem with understeer under acceleration, not under braking. If I'm able to break the rear loose, I can spin it further around, then regain traction and start accelerating in a staighter path. There by eliminating my understeer problem.

It takes me quite some time to tell how these changes make a car react. Although this does give me a rerun this race!

Thanks again.

AO

 

[Duke]

Biasing the brakes toward the rear works any time you are braking and turning at the same time, regardless of which you do first. With the rear wheels closer to lockup than the fronts, the available traction for turning is reduced.

The most effective way to do it to brake hard in a straight line before you get to the curve, then back off a little. While still braking lightly (called trail braking), turn in crisply. Trail braking keeps the front end of the car planted and the rear wheels to be lightly loaded, which allows rotation. You can sort of see this in the AI. If you follow them through a turn, you'll notice that they often tend to brake in a two-stage method. First they brake hard to get rid of speed, then a short blip just as they enter the turn to help induce rotation.

If you are having trouble with understeer on corner exit, there are a couple things to do.

1) Stiffen up the rear suspension, with spring rate and shock damping (rebound, if you have full adjustibility). This gets the weight transferred forward again as quickly as possible, for improved front traction.

2) Reduce the front stabilizer (sway bar). This allows the car to roll a little more, but keeps the inside front tire down a little better, and keeps the outside front tire loaded for traction. Also, back off the shock stiffness a little in front and see if that helps.

 

[f1king]

Ummmmm yeah, thats great guys I wish I read all that.

 

[Duke]

What's the point of a discussion consisting of illiterate one-liners? If you're not interested in learning something, by all means feel free to continue wallowing in ignorance.

 

[Der Alta]

Many a good retort have been seen on this forum.

That would join the ranks near the top of the list.

I didn't get a chance to test the theory out last night. Tomorrow night is looking like a prime test session. have an update after that.

AO

AO

 

[Dogfish]

I started this FF professional challenge last night...I used the Citroen Xsara rally car didn't pit (2 very worn fronts) but won by a good 8-10 seconds. Nuff said. Races 2 and 3 to do tonight.

 

[Gil]

I ran the FF races in Pro with the VW Lupo. Fully modded. It's light and narrow. It is also deceptively quick on the tight stuff. I won Monaco on pit stragegy (tires hard enough that I didn't need to pit) and handling. I usually run with the front brakes at 12 and the rears at 10. I deal with the understeer by either lowering the front of the car or raising the rear. Remember that 25mm equals only 1-inch. The Acura ITR is also a good car for the other two races.
I usually go in with full-mods, at least suspension. Stage 2 engine mods (NA or Turbo) at least. You wouldn't go to a gunfight with a knife, would you?

 

[Vhp]

But would you go to a gun fight with a bazooka? That's more of the scenario with some of the races.

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by Vhp
But would you go to a gun fight with a bazooka? That's more of the scenario with some of the races.

True enough. I like the set up with GT-2 where there was a HP limit for most of the races. Kept things a little closer to fair. Though even the worst driver could win with max allowed HP in most races.

 

[Vhp]

True, but it was still harder than it is in GT3. The first time through the game, I used F1 cars and fully modded race cars for most of the races, and I was able to easily beat the game.

Now I'm going through again, using cars that are on a more equal playing field, and it sure is a lot more fun.

I guess you just have to make your own fun in some games

 

[Gil]

True enuff. I am also on my 2nd time thru.
Running "underpowered is precisely why the Lupo is peerfect for the FF cup. It ain't that fast, but it handles well so you don't drop a lot thru the corners.
BTW welcome to the forum.

 

[Vhp]

Me? Thanks

 

[Max Powers]

I found that a fully modded Beetle Cup Car worked best for me in the pro FF series

 

[Delray Sandusk]

Originally posted by Der Alta
I had to race this multiple times until I finally won it. Seems that when you are under 320 Hp you’ll face the Spoon Civic and the Beetle cup car.

Have to disagree with you on this one. I ran this series with an Acura CL 3.2 that's modded up to 424 HP (explanation below), and I had to go against the Beetle Cup Car the first time I ran the Deep Forest race (before I hammered all the bugs out of the setup) and again at the Rome Circuit race. Also when I ran the series, either the Civic or the Beetle would show up, but never both at the same time. I think it's more of a random thing, because I didn't change my car's output between races.


By the way, if you think that 424 HP is excessive, then you should know that the Acura has low revs (about 7000RPM at redline) and high weight (1337 kg after a Stage 3 redux), plus the V6 up front is murder on the front wheels. So I kinda had to brute-force this one to be competitive, but at least I kept up with everyone.

 

[miata13B]

Thanks neon_duke for your insight on understeer and tire wear. Those seem to be the two things that are holding me back from pushing my cars to the limit. I must say it has helped so far today after I started to screw with the toe, chamber, and brake bias. It has shaved off a few seconds on Cote d'azur.

 

[Duke]

Great! That's what I like to hear. I've learned a lot from this forum, and I'm happy to share any knowledge I can.

Keep up the good work and ask anything else that comes to mind. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks here.

 

[miata13B]

Well, after hammering out a lot of the setup for the past two days on my civic type-r, I finally got it to a point where I can actually steer it through the corners at a good speed. I was running Rome circuit with it and got bored because I left the turbo on it. I think I am going to redo the race with NA tuning only to see if I actually get a match out of it. I ended the race 58 seconds ahead of any competition. This included both the Spoon and Beetle. considering that I burned out through the first four gears and still went into the first corner at first place, I think I was a little over-powered for the AI. I'll update tomorrow to tell how my race went with the NA tuning.

 

[Primax]

what settings did u have for the type r?? I am on this series now and im having trouble with the rome race. Im using the CTR and im gettin smoked by the beetle. Any tips would be appreciated.

 

[Delray Sandusk]

Um, Primax... how the heck are you using a CTR in a front-wheel drive competition?

Anyway, I've come up with two ways of dealing with that Beetle Cup Car (besides cursing Polyphony's decision to allow a purpose-built racer into an otherwise tuner car series)...

The hard way: Run some qualifying laps so that you can get up to second on the grid. The Cup Car has slow acceleration off the line, so you should be able to get in front of it. When you do, do everything in your power to block that little twerp off. DO NOT let it get in front of you, you will never catch it (more evidence of AI cheating perhaps?). You might even have to crowd it out in tight corners to force it back or otherwise use up your caf a little more than you'd otherwise need to, but it's important that you keep ahead of it at all times.

The easy way: Keep exiting and re-entering the race until the Cup Car isn't in the lineup. It takes a few tries and admittedly it's kind of poor sportsmanship, but considering that damn car is a whole level above the rest of the competiton I'd think it was justifiable. I won't blame you, anyway.

 

[Duke]

Delray: CTR = Civic Type R. Last I heard, these were FWD... :smilewink

I actually have a Beetle Cup car I won, in reserve for this series. I'm going to try it in my Honda ITR, first, though.

 

[miata13B]

Primax, the most important thing to work on is the suspension on the CTR. It loves the understeer. the biggest improvement I noticed on it was screwing with the LSD, Toe , and chamber. Those three settings gave me the most improvement. I am also running with ASM and TCS at 0. If you are using the Turbo on it, getting the jump off the starting line will be very difficult. When I went through it again using NA tuning, I noticed that my starts were a lot quicker and I was not spinning my tires through four gears. Don't ask, but it made a nice re-play. I don't think SCC would take that picture for burnout of the month.

 

[Primax]

well before i had a chance to read this i went and won the beetle cup car and i handily won the rome race by about 15+ seconds. Ill try usin the civic again for the last race and see if i can win. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[miata13B]

Primax are you using the stage 3 turbo on you CTR???

 

[Delray Sandusk]

Originally posted by neon_duke
Delray: CTR = Civic Type R. Last I heard, these were FWD... :smilewink

D'oh... sorry, I thought he meant a RUF CTR!

 

[Duke]

No required. I had just remembered from a previous thread where he was complaining that he had modded a Civic Type R to 400 hp, and still thought it was slow...
:smilewink

 

[Primax]

well right now im doin the grandvalley 300 but when im done ill check whats all doe to the CTR.

 

[VentedDisc]

Dont go all the way with the CTR it becomes some thing of a beast.

 

[Duke]

Any FWD car hits its useful power limit around 300 hp. After that you just can't get the power down effectively, and it kills the handling.