Force feedback, are they having a larf?

[z00h]

I disconnected power from my DFGT today and this allowed me to improve tuned time by 1.2 bloody SECOND. Within 6 laps my time went from 1:37.3 to 1:36.1 only by having no force feedback! The car feels definitely less twitchy in turns and let's me put the power down in places where I could have never dreamed of going full throttle before. I wish I knew about this earlier.

REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR MY ARSCHE.

 

[Northstar]

What happened when you turned it back on?

 

[z00h]

It went back up to 1:37 zone. With active FF even the lowest setting is not right, I have to be really cautious not to spin which tells me something is fupped.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

It would seem to me that the force feedback would be linked to the physics so if you turn it off perhaps it affects the physics making it 'easier' to turn a best lap?

 

[z00h]

That's what I reckon and it always felt to me that some of us are playing different game. I mean when I was watching replays of the fastest guys they seemed to be putting the power really early and being really smooth at the same time. No matter what I did I couldn't replicate that with FF. But without FF it's a completely different story.

I'm not saying people are cheating but this seems dodgy. I was expecting that lack of FF and numb steering wheel would make driving impossible (well it seems impossible with FF at times) but the result is surprising.

Or maybe it's the DFGT that is dodgy?

 

[Live_Fr0m_NY]

Really? i tried this and did worse. Than i tried to drift and did even worse still.

 

[JosVerstappen]

so you just guessed when your car was going to oversteer or something?

 

[ANFD]

I tried it with the G25 and found mixed results. My lap times were comparable even though it was foreign and weird to drive without FFB. I did find that the car was more stable through some corners than it had been and also that I could correct oversteer more quickly and effectively. I think that given enough time to adapt to the limp wheel feel, I might shave some time of my best lap.

I had forgotten about the adjustment for FFB. I went to the options section to check it and found that it had been set on 2, even though I don't remember setting it. I thought that strange since there was quite a bit of resistance in the wheel which felt normal to me. I usually set FFB fairly high as I have it set at 8 for Prologue. Just for fun, I set it all the way up to 10 and found that I could barely turn the wheel at all, let alone steer the car Something about the FFB here is definitely very different !!

 

[davissi]

I dont think it makes any difference, there's nothing wrong with the FFB. I done a 1'35.6 with FFB level 10 and I was ahead of Lars a couple of times heading into turn 11 only to slightly go into the corner too slow with disastrous consequences. I could see the potential though and why people were doing 1'35.3

 

[marky5244]

z00h, at first when I read your message I thought "oh no, another person making excuses for being slow".

But anyway, I'd thought I'd try it. I normally have FFB set at 5, using a G25. So I set the FFB down to 1 and gave the tuned car a go. On my third lap I was within 6 thousandths of my best ever time! Removing the power and running with no FFB was wierd for the first couple of laps but then my times were comparable again. So, I also think with a bit of practise I'd get well below my set times with the FFB turned off..

I think it is two things - firstly it is much easier to correct oversteer and also without the FFB the direction of the front wheels is more under your control rather than the FFB forcing them left or right.

Although I'm not sure what, I hope they find some way of fixing this for GT5 else it might make the TT leaderboard times less than equal.

Having said all that though, even with FFB off my times would still be seconds away from the leaders!!!

 

[Kryz11]

I disconnected power from my DFGT today and this allowed me to improve tuned time by 1.2 bloody SECOND. Within 6 laps my time went from 1:37.3 to 1:36.1 only by having no force feedback! The car feels definitely less twitchy in turns and let's me put the power down in places where I could have never dreamed of going full throttle before. I wish I knew about this earlier.

REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR MY ARSCHE.

There was a debate on SRT, they play wheels with no feedback and then with it.. sometimes no feedback gave them faster time, but once they larn how to use feedback, they beat the NON FEEDBACK by faster lap times...

I think you need to practice way more with feedback.

 

[osrg]

I disconnected power from my DFGT today and this allowed me to improve tuned time by 1.2 bloody SECOND. Within 6 laps my time went from 1:37.3 to 1:36.1 only by having no force feedback! The car feels definitely less twitchy in turns and let's me put the power down in places where I could have never dreamed of going full throttle before. I wish I knew about this earlier.

REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR MY ARSCHE.

Now try the same thing in the Normal 370Z and see how you go. Having said that, at your current rate of improvement you'll be doing times comparable to the World Top 100 within a few days. You must be a hell of a steerer.

Where did you finish on the leaderboards? And what were your combined times?

 

[z00h]

The point here is, how physics change when FF is off (no power supplied to the wheel). FF should give more input and provide real driving experience but in GT5 TT it actually acts as interference and unsettles the car.
Let's take turn 2 as an example, with FF I have to feather the gas pedal because if I don't it equals instant spin. Without FF I don't have think about it that much, it is more intuitive.

I'll give normal 370z a try and see what happens.

EDIT: Above it's turn 2 not 3 i.e. the exit from first chicane.

Had a run in normal, 0.5 sec up. I had to do 10 laps though, BUT within those 10 I had only 2 spins. What feels different is the reaction to oversteer, with FF once the back end starts to go away you're cooked, even if you manage to catch it the slapper is waay too over exaggerated. Without FF it's much easier to handle.

 

[superwally]

Hmmmm, I had a similar problem, but it manifested itself differently. My DFGT has been shaking/vibrating when I pause the game for almost a year, started doing it maybe 6 months after I bought it. It was annoying, but did not affect gameplay so I just ignored it. I used it for the Prologue GTP Qualifier and ran a decent lap, placing me in a similar division as for GT4 WRS.

Last summer, I noticed that I had become significantly slower than others in my division, it was so bad at Eiger Nordwand that I almost gave up completely. I figured I was just slowing down from old age, but it was depressing because it just seemed to happen all at once. I kept driving anyway, and when the Demo came out I was able to run decent laps and didn't think much about it any more.

Then, about 3 weeks before the end of the TT, my fat cat ran by my DFGT, caught the USB cable, and nearly pulled my PS3 off the shelf! When I plugged the wheel back in, it would not center properly-the cat had pulled the wires out of the USB plug, making it junk. I attempted to repair the wires, but it just wasn't working out, I needed to replace the entire cable or get a new DFGT. Best Buy had DFGT's on sale for $99, so off I went and picked up the last one available.

I brought it home and plugged it in. WOW! Smooth, quiet, and no shaking anymore. I turned on the Demo and immediately went .2 faster in the hairpin section alone. I'm pretty sure something was physically wrong with the other wheel, as this one is so much better at low speeds. I've not yet tried it with Prologue, but I'm expecting some improvement.

In short: there may be something wrong with your wheel!

 

[osrg]

The point here is, how physics change when FF is off (no power supplied to the wheel). FF should give more input and provide real driving experience but in GT5 TT it actually acts as interference and unsettles the car.
Let's take turn 2 as an example, with FF I have to feather the gas pedal because if I don't it equals instant spin. Without FF I don't have think about it that much, it is more intuitive.

I'll give normal 370z a try and see what happens.

EDIT: Above it's turn 2 not 3 i.e. the exit from first chicane.

Had a run in normal, 0.5 sec up. I had to do 10 laps though, BUT within those 10 I had only 2 spins. What feels different is the reaction to oversteer, with FF once the back end starts to go away you're cooked, even if you manage to catch it the slapper is waay too over exaggerated. Without FF it's much easier to handle.

Hmmm...... exit from the first complex off the straight yes? I run FFB @ 7 and i'm full throttle on apex exit until i lift off for the right handed turn 4.......

Different driving styles i guess. I started out with FFB @ 2 in the first couple of days, went nowhere then ramped up the FFB 7 and instantly had success. I didn't drop 1.2secs in 6 laps mind you, more like a '36.9 to a 36.4 over the space of a few days and 3-4 hrs....

 

[BWX]

The G25 is alot faster than a DFP or DFGT, I think the actual top speed that the wheel can achieve makes abig difference as to how it (the FF) can help or hurt you in a turn. I have a DFP and a couple G25s, I Also have had a Logitech MOMO (black, not red), and some older Logitechs.

For me in GT5p and the GT5TT, having all the 'steering help' off and the 'power steering' setting off, about 3 feels great with the G25. Any more than that, say 5 or 6 feels good but seems to hinder the precision a little when fighting against the FF. After playing all kinds of sims on the PC-- like Live for Speed, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, iRacing, GTR2, etc.. GT5p and GT5tt seem to have some of the best FF w/ the G25 that I've ever seen. If it's messed up at all, it's not that bad.

 

[z00h]

The G25 is alot faster than a DFP or DFGT

Cheers mate, I thought about that as well. Shame there's no way of finding out what wheels top players use and especially what is the fastest DFGT time.

 

[GTP_DEVIE]

The G25 is alot faster than a DFP or DFGT, I think the actual top speed that the wheel can achieve makes abig difference as to how it (the FF) can help or hurt you in a turn. I have a DFP and a couple G25s, I Also have had a Logitech MOMO (black, not red), and some older Logitechs.

For me in GT5p and the GT5TT, having all the 'steering help' off and the 'power steering' setting off, about 3 feels great with the G25. Any more than that, say 5 or 6 feels good but seems to hinder the precision a little when fighting against the FF. After playing all kinds of sims on the PC-- like Live for Speed, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, iRacing, GTR2, etc.. GT5p and GT5tt seem to have some of the best FF w/ the G25 that I've ever seen. If it's messed up at all, it's not that bad.

 

[osrg]

The G25 is alot faster than a DFP or DFGT, I think the actual top speed that the wheel can achieve makes abig difference as to how it (the FF) can help or hurt you in a turn. I have a DFP and a couple G25s, I Also have had a Logitech MOMO (black, not red), and some older Logitechs.

For me in GT5p and the GT5TT, having all the 'steering help' off and the 'power steering' setting off, about 3 feels great with the G25. Any more than that, say 5 or 6 feels good but seems to hinder the precision a little when fighting against the FF. After playing all kinds of sims on the PC-- like Live for Speed, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, iRacing, GTR2, etc.. GT5p and GT5tt seem to have some of the best FF w/ the G25 that I've ever seen. If it's messed up at all, it's not that bad.

WTF? What on earth do you mean by faster?

Cheers mate, I thought about that as well. Shame there's no way of finding out what wheels top players use and especially what is the fastest DFGT time.

I'd wager that the split between DFGT and G25 in the world Top 50 would be not far off 50/50.......and the fastest DFGT time would be well inside the Top 20, if not Top 10.

 

[BWX]

WTF? What on earth do you mean by faster?

Well think about it like this, in a real car turn the wheel all the way left or right when stopped, then let go of the wheel and then press the excelerator. What happens? In most all cars the steering wheel will straighten itself out because of the caster built into the suspension. It does this pretty quickly - with a DFP in a race sim the motors may not be able to keep up with the speed at which the front wheels of the virtual car are trying to pull it to center. It can only go so fast. With a 900º wheel that problem becomes pretty exaggerated, much more so than with one of the older FF wheels with a third of the rotation.

Don't confuse this with the power or torque of the motors inside the wheel, it's just the speed that matters in this case. Both the DFP and G25 have plenty of power. The G25 is a lot faster though and can better 'keep up' with the forces it's trying to reproduce. That has an effect on how the car in-game feels in lot of different circumstances.

Before the G25 came out few years ago, the guy that designed it was very active over at the RaceSimCentral forums. He explained why the speed of a sim racing wheel was so important. When switching from a DFP (same basic internals as a DFGT) to the G25 and really testing them both out in all the race sims on the PC and Gran Turismo, the difference is huge. Some of you guys may laugh, but I'm telling you there's a big difference in speed between the two 900º wheels. That difference is mainly what makes the G25 so much better- not even taking into consideration the better materials and 100 times better pedals (w/ clutch pedal). Maybe I can find a link to some of those threads where the designer of the G25 was explaining all of this stuff to everyone, it really was pretty interesting. It was aslo really cool of a person like that to take so much time and effort to communicate with the Logitech 'customers'.

 

[z00h]

I'd wager that the split between DFGT and G25 in the world Top 50 would be not far off 50/50.......and the fastest DFGT time would be well inside the Top 20, if not Top 10.

if it's 50/50 in the world top 50 then presumably on the probability basis there must be plenty in top 20 and top 10?
LOL

 

[osrg]

Well think about it like this, in a real car turn the wheel all the way left or right when stopped, then let go of the wheel and then press the excelerator. What happens? In most all cars the steering wheel will straighten itself out because of the caster built into the suspension. It does this pretty quickly - with a DFP in a race sim the motors may not be able to keep up with the speed at which the front wheels of the virtual car are trying to pull it to center. It can only go so fast. With a 900º wheel that problem becomes pretty exaggerated, much more so than with one of the older FF wheels with a third of the rotation.

Don't confuse this with the power or torque of the motors inside the wheel, it's just the speed that matters in this case. Both the DFP and G25 have plenty of power. The G25 is a lot faster though and can better 'keep up' with the forces it's trying to reproduce. That has an effect on how the car in-game feels in lot of different circumstances.

Before the G25 came out few years ago, the guy that designed it was very active over at the RaceSimCentral forums. He explained why the speed of a sim racing wheel was so important. When switching from a DFP (same basic internals as a DFGT) to the G25 and really testing them both out in all the race sims on the PC and Gran Turismo, the difference is huge. Some of you guys may laugh, but I'm telling you there's a big difference in speed between the two 900º wheels. That difference is mainly what makes the G25 so much better- not even taking into consideration the better materials and 100 times better pedals (w/ clutch pedal). Maybe I can find a link to some of those threads where the designer of the G25 was explaining all of this stuff to everyone, it really was pretty interesting. It was aslo really cool of a person like that to take so much time and effort to communicate with the Logitech 'customers'.

Thanks for the explanation...... i must be a poor steerer then as i'm slightly quicker and feel much more at ease with the DFGT than i am with the G25.. which i found terribly notchy and rough with it's FFB compared to the smooth feel of the DFGT

 

[osrg]

if it's 50/50 in the world top 50 then presumably on the probability basis there must be plenty in top 20 and top 10?
LOL

There could be 15 G25's in the 20 to 5 DFGT's, and then reversed for the last 30 places........

Talk about clutching at straws. I personally believe that you are quick, or you're not. A different wheel won't make a hell of a lot of difference.

 

[BWX]

Thanks for the explanation...... i must be a poor steerer then as i'm slightly quicker and feel much more at ease with the DFGT than i am with the G25.. which i found terribly notchy and rough with it's FFB compared to the smooth feel of the DFGT

No prob. The first G25 I got was kind of loud and a little notchy, I called up Logitech and they sent me out a complete new wheel. That's why I have two. The new one is much quieter and smoother. I got mine when they first came out though and there was a bad batch that they knew about though the serial num. My G25 is actually smoother than my DFP- go figure.

 

[z00h]

There could be 15 G25's in the 20 to 5 DFGT's, and then reversed for the last 30 places........

Unless you see the actual data any assumptions you make are like fortune-telling or modern journalism. I might as well say Top50 consists only of G25s an G27s and I will be as right as you are. Nuff said.

 

[miura909]

It would be interesting to know what the fastest players used. There's plenty of GT Planet users who made it to the national finals, why not make a list and see who used what? I was 3rd in Portugal and started off with an old DFP and then the pedals were jamming a bit so I borrowed a G25 from a friend. It took me a little while to get used to the brake pedal specially (much harder spring) but I thought it was quite a lot better, I could react quicker and catch slides etc. I still haven't tried a DFGT.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Do you think the physics actually changed, or do you just feel the FFB was wrong or misleading? (maybe a delay between the car oversteering and it being felt through the wheel, or it giving misleading forces making you think you're at the limit when you're not?).

I remember when I first got a FFB wheel (opposed to the old Fanatec speedster which just had motors that acted like springs, no actual FFB) I actually went slower initially, because I didn't realise the car's maximum grip was actually beyond what I thought it was, and was needing to push the wheel slightly further into the zone where it starts to lighten up a bit more.

 

[GTP_DEVIE]

Well think about it like this, in a real car turn the wheel all the way left or right when stopped, then let go of the wheel and then press the excelerator. What happens? In most all cars the steering wheel will straighten itself out because of the caster built into the suspension. It does this pretty quickly - with a DFP in a race sim the motors may not be able to keep up with the speed at which the front wheels of the virtual car are trying to pull it to center. It can only go so fast. With a 900º wheel that problem becomes pretty exaggerated, much more so than with one of the older FF wheels with a third of the rotation.

Don't confuse this with the power or torque of the motors inside the wheel, it's just the speed that matters in this case. Both the DFP and G25 have plenty of power. The G25 is a lot faster though and can better 'keep up' with the forces it's trying to reproduce. That has an effect on how the car in-game feels in lot of different circumstances.

Before the G25 came out few years ago, the guy that designed it was very active over at the RaceSimCentral forums. He explained why the speed of a sim racing wheel was so important. When switching from a DFP (same basic internals as a DFGT) to the G25 and really testing them both out in all the race sims on the PC and Gran Turismo, the difference is huge. Some of you guys may laugh, but I'm telling you there's a big difference in speed between the two 900º wheels. That difference is mainly what makes the G25 so much better- not even taking into consideration the better materials and 100 times better pedals (w/ clutch pedal). Maybe I can find a link to some of those threads where the designer of the G25 was explaining all of this stuff to everyone, it really was pretty interesting. It was aslo really cool of a person like that to take so much time and effort to communicate with the Logitech 'customers'.

What a load of hog-wash. 👎

 

[BWX]

What a load of hog-wash. 👎

Oh yeah? What part? Do some research before you make a fool out of yourself.

 

[ANFD]

What a load of hog-wash. 👎

I agree, your post is a lot of hog wash All kidding aside, it just does nothing to contribute to the discussion ...