Forza 5 regret.

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 5' started by Bo larsson, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. Bo larsson

    Bo larsson

    Messages:
    34
    Ive been doing my driving in PC sims for the last 2 years.
    But ive felt the urge to get a new console and try Forza
    again wich I have not been playing since Forza 3.
    With that came a large investment in a new Wheel
    with the thrustmaster TX and the TP3 pedals and the TH8
    shifter. Ive Heard that Turn 10 had completly redone the
    physics for Forza 5. Ive watched Inside simracing with Darin
    praised the physics and the FFB on the Thrustmaster TX.
    Compared to Assetto Corsa, rfactor and other PC titles Forza 5
    feels pretty terrible. The physics just feels wery strange with
    wery little traction and weight feeling in the cars. The level off
    control in the cars are not even on the same planet as in Assetto.
    The FFB is bad also with a big deadzone and light feeling in the
    Wheel esp with 900 rotation. Wery disapointed about Forza 5 and
    they better step it upp (again) in Forza 6 to attract spoiled PC users.
    For now Forza horizon 2 feels better although its a more arcade oriented
    with more fun physics and better FFB.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
  2. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

    Messages:
    12,134
    Location:
    United States
    Why do you structure your post like that? It was very weird to read.

    I have no comment on the wheel aspect of your post as I dont have one, and I really don't have space for one, but I can comment about the game itself. They have upped it this iteration, and I'm fairly positive they'll keep on that track, as they've done with every iteration.

    I tend to drive(and tune) modified cars. Its not often that I'll drive one stock, so my cars usually handle pretty darn good, but that's because I tune for the utmost grip I can achieve. I have to disagree though, I feel alot of weight in the cars, especially an El Camino I tried to work with in C-Class the other night. I wonder if that dials down to the wheel?

    PC's have alot more room to work with, you have to remember that. Having not tried any racing sims on PC, I wouldn't know the comparison.
     
  3. Bo larsson

    Bo larsson

    Messages:
    34
    Ive tested it on pad first an it felt quite decent. But the deper levels off drivebility is felt with a wheel
    and not with a pad. Thats was the conclusion off this post. Its not Worth the Money and if someone else
    is wondering about it they can take this post as one aspect off deciding. Becouse it costs about 500 EUR to
    get a god Wheel on XBOX one.
     
  4. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,228
    I'll agree with low grip levels for high performance cars, recently it started to annoy me a lot, I either don't push the car hard or keep sliding while cornering, I think they should look at their aerodynamics simulation for Forza 6.
     
  5. katpeeler

    katpeeler

    Messages:
    1,174
    What are your assists set on FM5??...The default settings are terrible...I think it even has "auto brake" on..I would recomend to go into your setting and change some things around...Also in the "Advanced" setting you can change your FFB and wheel rotation. I use the TX also and I had to get used to it coming from my Fanatec...And like ImaRobot was saying there are alot of tuning on these cars you can do...Alot of good tunes on the Storefront
     
  6. Bo larsson

    Bo larsson

    Messages:
    34
    Ive tested all sorts off combinations. 90% with no aid only ABS and normal steering becouse the simulation steering
    just dont feel accurate. The problem is that I dont feel enough Control off the cars. In Assetto for example I can easily
    feel the cars limit and when it breaks out off traction. You can Control the car 100% but in forza the car is not that
    comunicative. You have to wait and respond more what the car is doing instead off controling it. I took a spinn in the stock NSX R in forza 5 and compared it to Assetto corsa mod NSX wich is one off the best roadcars in that game.
    I have to say that the problems in the physics is more on high speed tracks like Nordschleife wich i love.
    When the car gets lose you get that strange wiggle and weightshifts that is realy strange in high speed driving.
    But I have to say forza makes a good jobb when the cars begin to slide. In Assetto its wery hard or harder to save
    a slide due to the violent recovery off gripp. In forza its smooth as silk. I Think forza is a better drifting simulator than driving simulator...
     
  7. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

    Messages:
    12,134
    Location:
    United States
    Really? this is happening with a wheel? The regular pad is very communicative. I can fill the instant I lose traction, the moment I apply brakes to hard, and if I use to much throttle during an exit. That's a little disappointing to hear. Whats your take on that @katpeeler, since you have the same wheel?

    From what I heard, Simulation steering works way better on a wheel. With you driving with the aided steering assist that is probably why your thinking its way easier to recover. Try giving simulation steering a shot. Still, Even if its drifting, cruising, racing, or driving in reverse, its all being simulated the exact same way.
     
  8. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    These videos I am about to link you too where done by me with the TX wheel, no h-pattern or clutch pedal though; as they wasn't available when I had a working TX wheel.











    What you are getting with the TX wheel in Forza 5, wasn't my experience at all. the only thing that you have mentioned that I experienced, was the very small deadzone in FFB feel while the wheel is at centre. It is something like a 2mm hole in the FFB. Baring that though, every car I had driven in Forza 5 with the TX wheel has been very easy to control. In fact, back when Assetto was at version 0.2 or something of the like, the F458 in both FM5 and Assetto felt fairly similar; with Assetto feeling better because of the much greater feeling though the FFB. I played both games with the TX wheel by the way, this isn't a blind comparison. For road cars I always used 900° of rotation on Forza, and I always had a great time with it while my TX wheel was working.

    With regards to the cars kicking out in both games, it is harder to catch in Assetto over Forza. But with a little practice, it becomes very easy to catch a slide in Assetto. I would highly suggest you begin messing around with the drift spec E30 in Assetto, and learn how to catch the car on its own inertia. It will help you improve in both Assetto and Forza.

    p.s you can not compare a user created mod to something that a game dev has made either, no matter how good the mod is. Devs like T10 have the backing of the car companies, and they do a lot of testing on dynos and such. The same with the cars that Assetto themselves have done, especially with Ferrari; to which Kunos have a very good working relationship with.
     
    ImaRobot likes this.
  9. katpeeler

    katpeeler

    Messages:
    1,174
    Im unable to see the videos since my work firewall has them blocked but he is spot on in the post. I have my FFB settings maxed out and my wheel rotation is set to 100%. And I can feel exactly when the car starts to break loose..

    I haven't used my wheel on the PC yet so I cannot comment on the difference of the PC and the Xbox ONe
     
  10. Blkout

    Blkout

    Messages:
    860
    Forza 5 feels good with the Xbox One controller but you are correct, the FFB is absolutely dreadful with the TX wheel. Its no fault of the wheel, the TX is a great wheel with PC racing games. The FFB deadzone is really bad in FM5 and I don't know why it was never fixed. Ironically Forza Horizon 2 using the same engine as FM5 doesn't suffer from the terrible FFB or the deadzone so I'm baffled why it was never patched in FM5.

    One thing that I will say seemed to help a alot with the wonky feel in FM5 using the TX wheel is to replace the stock differential on the car with a race differential and try adjusting the settings. I can't tell you why but it seems to make a huge difference in the way the cars feel with the TX, but you will still have some FFB deadzone regardless, that's just built into the game.
     
    Bo larsson likes this.
  11. Bo larsson

    Bo larsson

    Messages:
    34
    The drift spec are no problems for me in Assetto. The ordinare ones are often wery hard to Control over a certain degree.
     
  12. FordGTGuy

    FordGTGuy

    Messages:
    865
    Really going to depend on your assists, there is only so much Turn 10 can do but make sure the cars react realistically depending on the conditions you have setup.

    1) Race cars use assists, if you're not using assists than of course the car itself is not going to react like its real-life counter-part.

    2) Race cars run long races and have time to warm up their tires before really getting onto the throttle. Forza races are usually short and traction, as you would expect, can be incredibly unreliable on cold tires.

    3) Race car drivers are used to driving their cars. These guys know the limits of the cars they drive and know the limits of the tires they use as they are cold, warm, or worn and constantly practice. In Forza you are likely changing cars, upgrades, tunes and track surfaces constantly which makes it even harder to learn the limits of your vehicle.

    If race cars forced you to use their assists; if races forced you to practice, qualify and then have long races; and if you were forced to use the same car in a league without upgrades than Forza would seem more realistic compared to Motorsport racing.
     
  13. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,228
    Yeah, that makes sense, good points.
     
  14. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    If you are talking about real world racing, then the vast majority of motorsports have driver assists banned; including F1 and GT. This means drivers cannot use ABS, TCS, or STM for properly sanctioned races.

    Within Forza though, just use whatever assists you feel are needed at the time. Some cars car perfectly fine without any assists at all. But there are a few, and especially with a leaderboard topping build/tune that require the use of TCS to keep the rear end in check.
     
  15. Fat Tyre

    Fat Tyre

    Messages:
    1,334
    Location:
    Australia
    @Bo larsson Did you update the firmware on your TX?
     
  16. TonyJZX

    TonyJZX

    Messages:
    2,727
    I cant believe anyone would think any form of racing uses assists. This is untrue in open wheelers, GT3 or touring cars of Japanese Super GT or Le Mans or rally or anywhere...

    The only time I heard of race cars with electronic aids is with N class endurance racing which is basically showroom stock where they cannot remove the aids easily anyway.

    I'm of the opposite opinion. I feel that Forza has too much grip even on street tyres. It doesnt really model tyres heating up and loss of brakes much either. Unless you have the tyres red hot (according to the meter) and it looses heat real quick anyway like as if the environment is cold.

    You light them up coming out of corners and they heat up and once red, yeah you slide a bit.

    Lay off the power and the grip returns. This isnt realistic but as far as concessions to reality goes, this is minor.
     
  17. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Not true.

    First off F1 has allowed criver aids at numerous times in its history, so while they may be banned right now, both ABS and TCS have been permitted in the past.

    As far as GT cars go, well that's simply incorrect, currently the GT3 class allows both ABS and TCS (and both can be adjusted by the driver)....

    http://www.jrm-group.com/nissan-gt_r-nismo-gt3/gt3-car-specification
     
    Imari and Fat Tyre like this.
  18. ClydeYellow

    ClydeYellow

    Messages:
    2,360
    GT and Le Mans cars feature traction control systems. F1 banned it in 1994, re-allowed it in 2001, then banned it in 2008 when a standard ECU was imposed. And rally cars don't feature them for quite obvious reasons.
     
  19. TonyJZX

    TonyJZX

    Messages:
    2,727
    well my eyes have been opened

    my respect for a lot of these drivers and their sport has diminished

    IMO, mashing the pedal to stop and go isnt really what its all about

    Among the motorsports I watch, electronic aids have been gone for a long time or were never there, ie. F1, Nascar, Indycar/IRL whatever, V8 Supercars, DTM, BTCC, JGTC

    as far as I remember the GT3s never had it, ie. the original 996 GT3 Porsche Cup etc.

    Moreso, we have a car with 4wd and yet it still needs traction control?

    My opinion is modern motorsport that has all this stuff is at an all time low. Thanks people.
     
  20. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,170
    Well, I'm less than a week out from the X1 purchase...

    Will test out the game at length using a variety of cars, tracks and tunes.. get back to you then OP! :D

    Assuming the thread is still going.
     
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  21. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Tell you what, go and have a go in some of these cars and then come back and tell us its now "mashing the pedal to stop and go"!

    That the cars feature TCS and ABS doesn't mean they become point and shoot or that skill levels have been diminished, these system (while adjustable) do not operate at the same thresholds that road cars systems do as they are more focused on managing tyres than making the cars a doddle to drive.

    Your respect may be diminished by it, but I've spent enough time on track (in road and race prepped vehicles) to understand that system like this are not going to do the job for you.

    Hell you could make the same argument for tyre technology, that's improved to such a degree that the levels of grip, progression and life bears no comparison to tyres from even ten years ago (which is exactly why F1 tried to make things more exciting by demanding tyres designed to degrade quickly). Should we go back lower tech rubber as well?

    Oh and stop ignoring the AUP and start using capital letters correctly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
    twitcher and HAL20XX like this.
  22. ClydeYellow

    ClydeYellow

    Messages:
    2,360
    You do realize that even with those aids, driving a LMP1 HY or a GTE car takes plenty of skills? I'd pay a lot of money to see you having a go at "mashing the pedal to stop and go" in an Audi R18. But by the way you talk I suspect your experience in purpose-built racecars amount to exactly 0.

    I'm sure someone's respect of racing drivers was diminished by the introduction of seatbelts, too.

    You may be surprised to know that IRL, electronic driving aids don't work like in Forza/Gran Turismo, where they magically eliminate wheelspin or wheel lock during braking. Generally speaking they are a trade-off: you lose control over something, to gain it over something else. Or, in the case of cars like the old Nissan Deltawing, you use them to make the car driveable.
    Because racing cars aren't built to check or not check certain "street cred" boxes, but to be competitive.
     
  23. TonyJZX

    TonyJZX

    Messages:
    2,727
    I really wouldnt know what the aids in Forza is like, never used it, never bothered.

    I think you guys are cheerleaders too much for this game and for motorsport. I appreciate that you like motorsport, but even my favorite form, Formula 1, is often a giant waste of television with maybe half to two thirds of the year being worth the watch at best.

    btw. guys, saying that you have XXX and YYY real world motorsport experience means what to what exactly? arent we allowed to like and dislike certain things?

    Formula one made the right decision to get rid of that crap and really, so should all the other forms.

    And no you cant compare to seat belts and tyres. Are they active electronic technologies? no

    This place like many is full of false equivalences.

    Do you see anyone come out against carbon fibre or Hans devices or helmets god forbid, gimme a break...
     
  24. ClydeYellow

    ClydeYellow

    Messages:
    2,360
    And I just tried them to see how they work. Needless to say, I wasn't pleased.

    Sure, but if you want to present what appears to be an objective standpoint (driving a LMP1 is as easy as mashing on the throttle and brakes thanks to electronic driving aids) it'd help if you had at least some experience on a racing track, with a purpose-built race car, to know how differently to a road car - fast as it is - anything built exclusively to go very fast on a closed circuit feels. Of course, I don't think any of us have any actual experience with F1 or LMP machinery, but even driving around the track with a 100cc competition kart will help you appreciate how different the amount of forces involved in racecraft is, and how different a race car will behave (although a kart arguably isn't really a car).

    F1 cars race for a scant 70 laps. They have massive amounts of downforce, and if their aerodynamic surfaces break, they'll limp it back to the pits, where said surfaces will be changed (thanks to the ease-of-maintenance of an open-wheel car in that regard) or the whole car will be ditched.

    But the focus here is the fact that they'll run for about 70 laps, or roughly, hm, say, 300 kilometres? An they will often use two different sets of tires. Or three.
    They can mash on the brakes, because guess what? a car that's built with the exact purpose of going really fast with a budget that's bigger than the GDP of some African countries will be able to brake aggressively without the tires locking up (thanks to aero, tire and suspension design, etcetera). But it means that they will severely damage tires that are designed to take that kind of stress for twenty laps at best. Again, not too much of a problem, because chances are they'll be getting a new set in two, three laps tops.

    On the other hand, Endurance racers can't afford this kind of luxuries. Tires have to be preserved, and the same goes for the brakes (which may have to last for 24 hours). It's not that the ABS present on some GTE and GT3 cars will prevent wheel lock (if you've seen GT racing, you'll know it won't); it serves to help preserving the tires under hard braking.

    As for the ASR on many LMP1 cars, here's the thing: they'd likely be undrivable without some measure of traction control. And again, if you mash of the throttle, ASR or no ASR won't make any difference. The ASR serves to give the driver a measure of control over the response of the car, not to make it easy to drive.

    Again, electronic aids aren't there to make the life of the driver easier. Think of it like of using CAD rather than a drawing board: it's a different approach to a problem that presents other difficulties and requires the same basic skills, plus some that are specific to the task.

    My bad, but...

    Ah, I see far too many people, both racers and (mostly) spectators, take a stand against safety measures on a daily basis to answer you with a "no". As an example...

    ...and if you think nobody opposed the introduction of seatbelts and other such measures in motorsports, maybe you should look up the history of safety in F1. Roll bars were seen as an aerodynamic disadvantage in F1 in the 60s.
     
    Scaff likes this.
  25. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I don't even play the 'game' I'm simply referring to motorsport, but don't let that stop the ad-hominem digs.

    Well that may explain the difference in opinions, it does however kind of surprise me that you follow a form of sport that you consider to be that big a waste.


    It adds context.

    I taught active and passive systems within the motor industry for six years and I wouldn't consider myself an expert (but it did give me a good basic understanding of the differences between road and track systems, how and why they are used, in both theoretical and practical terms); it seems to have taken you less that four hours from not even knowing these systems were in place in various sports to being able to form enough of an understanding on how and why they are used. An understanding deep enough to dismiss those who drive the cars.


    So you don't rate Senna, Prost or the rest of the 1993 F1 grid?


    Well actually we can, you can disagree and refuse to answer the points raised (as you have), but you can't stop anyone using them as a comparison.


    No one said they were electronic technologies, however if you want to limit to electronic technologies that make a car easier to drive quicker then the list of stuff that is still allowed. If your point is that any electronic system that makes it easier for a car to be driven then lets get rid of all 'by wire' systems, out goes the ability to control fuel mix (can be used to reduce power and therefore control traction), out goes electronic throttle bodies and the ecu's that control them (these can and are set to limit power in lower gears to avoid frying the drivetrain and tyres), out go the gearboxes (electronics here remove the chance of screwing up a shift and damaging the drivetrain), out goes brake bias (which allows you to better balance the car on a corner by corner basis to make its easier) and out go the differentials (as these are again electronically controlled).

    Electronic systems that provide an active form of assistance exist throughout an F1 car, and almost every other car on the road and track for that matter, don't want that then you are pretty much stuck with NASCAR.


    As as been said, plenty of people did.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
  26. twitcher

    twitcher

    Messages:
    5,703
    While you're welcome to your opinion, I feel quite confident thinking you are completely delusional lol. Your opinion doesn't seem to have much bases in reality.

    1. People stating their experience with racecars does matter, as it provides context. I can give you my opinion on what it takes to fly a space shuttle, but you'll get a much more valid one from someone who has actually done it.

    2. You've quite clearly demonstrated that you have very little understanding as the both the intricacies, and varieties, of electronic systems used in mordern racecars, and the history of how, when, and why those systems were introduced.


    You just...you make no sense :lol: The whole point of racing is to go as fast as possible, by any means necessary. This means constantly pushing the boundaries of R&D in all fields relating to the sport. How can you support Ferrari/McLearen/Redbull spending millions, if not billions of dollars researching aero, or Perelli spending billions developing tires (which get used for a wopping 100ish kms)....research that is all done in the name of making a car easier to control at high speeds.....and then completely dismiss any form of electronic aid as though it someone destroys the whole concept of racing.

    Many of the electronic systems are designed not to make the car "easier" to drive, but rather to enhance the capabilities of the car. The cars are designed to have knife edge handling that no human could control without the help of electronic aids. It's sort of the same way the airframe of an F16 fighter jet is deleberately designed to fall out of the sky without a computer keeping it in the air. The computer makes several hundred, even thousand, calculations per second, and makes minor adjustments to all the control surfaces accordingly. No human pilot could do that on their own. However, due to the intentionally unstable design, the F16 is one of the most nimble, agile, capable, versitile fighters that have ever been made.



    I think it's also pretty clear that you don't understand the relationship between the capabilities of human designed technology in relation to what the human mind and body can cope with.

    What I mean is that the fastest racecar in the world is one without a driver. The fastest fighter jet in the world is one without a pilot. We have reached a point where we have the ability to design machines which can surpass the limits of the human body, both mental and physical.

    Due to developments in tires, aero, and mechanical grip, modern racecars are able to maintain average speeds which are much much higher than previously. This means the drivers are under a lot more physical strain (go pull 3-5 G for a few hours straight and let me know how you feel lol). The combination of the physical strain combined with higher average speeds (which equates to the need for faster reaction time) simply surpasses the limits of what the human body can do.

    So, we could turn back the clock to before electronic systems in racecars existed, and just simply get everyone who is racing to slow down a lil'bit.....or, you could get over your rather unobjective opinion about electronic systems and we can get back to pushing things forward :lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  27. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,170
    So OP, are you enjoying the game or not? I'm on a controller, and enjoying the daylights out of it.. though I want the wheels to turn MORE when they don't! :D
     
    Amills313 likes this.