Frustrated with the steering assist even on 'sim' mode.

[artboy76]

Why is it still very apparent that when i am driving with sim steering that if i try to go 'full lock' around a corner, the game actually dosent let me and it controls for me how much steering angle i take?!
Seems actually worse this time round over FM3.
It has started to actually bother me now as im not actually controlling the car during the turns using my skills but the computer assists skills.

Why cant sim steering be just that???

If you unsure what i mean please take a car with controller put sim steering on and head for a corner and try to go full lock, it doesn't let you! So even a dodgy driver can take corners!!

why???

 

[ShylockHolmes]

Works just fine for me.

 

[Luminis]

If you're on a controller, get used to it. If a game allows you full control over your car with just the analogue stick, the game will barely be playable, if at all. You'll just not be able to be as precise with about two inches to go from lock to lock as you would be with a wheel.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

I wish they'd allow the gamepad people to race without the buffer. Would be a lot safer braking for corners going forward.....

 

[t.o.]

I wish they'd allow the gamepad people to race without the buffer. Would be a lot safer braking for corners going forward.....

What you mean to say is "Without as MUCH buffer". Every racing game has buffers to some degree. Because, like Luminis said, if it didn't it would be unplayable.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I turned Sim steering off. There was clearly an assist with that on and massive counter steer. So now with it off I can actually enjoy F4. I always recommend for everyone to set it to "normal". And thats coming from someone that has NO assists on at all.

 

[Luminis]

Personally, I don't even get why they implemented sim steering as an option for us controller users. It makes zero sense. It can't do what it's supposed to do unless you're on a wheel.

I mean, who's expecting a realistic experience with a pad in their hands, instead of a wheel?

 

[t.o.]

I turned Sim steering off. There was clearly an assist with that on and massive counter steer. So now with it off I can actually enjoy F4. I always recommend for everyone to set it to "normal". And thats coming from someone that has NO assists on at all.

for controller users?

 

[yakapo]

I'm pretty sure you can pick up a used Microsoft FF wheel for $50 at a game store that sells used games & peripherals. I used to have a G27 for GT5 and it was well worth it. Spend the $50 - you'll get your money's worth. Even with the cheap MS wheel you can feel when your car is starting to lose grip and make adjustments. I don't want to sound pretentious but anytime someone says the physics sucks on a driving game and they are using a gamepad I disregard their comments. The game was meant to be played with a wheel. I'm on the lookout for a used Fanatec wheel.

 

[artboy76]

Personally, I don't even get why they implemented sim steering as an option for us controller users. It makes zero sense. It can't do what it's supposed to do unless you're on a wheel.

I mean, who's expecting a realistic experience with a pad in their hands, instead of a wheel?

I love Forza series, im not posting to start any friction. Its just that i use a wheel but sometimes with Forza being the series it is i like to just chill out with the controller, paint, tune and mess about without setting up the wheel etc, so when i use the controller if it has buffers i just wish it didnt look so obvious in car.
I can see the blokes hands and the wheel literally mid corner 'adjust' without my input.
No other driving game i own does this apart from FM3.

All i wonder is i take it its just the way forza works from inside car view. I shall just stop obsessing about it and stop looking for it.

And as far a 'realistic experience with pad in their hands" comment, well when i play say FIFA or say a tennis game or a FP shooter, i want to feel like i am scoring a goal, or scoring a point or shooting a sprite in the head and not the computer doing so with assists....................same thing surely?
Whether you are playinf forza with a controller or a wheel, its actually not real is it? or no more real anyway.......just a game.

 

[Luminis]

And as far a 'realistic experience with pad in their hands" comment, well when i play say FIFA or say a tennis game or a FP shooter, i want to feel like i am scoring a goal, or scoring a point or shooting a sprite in the head and not the computer doing so with assists....................same thing surely?

Nowhere near the same thing. It's fairly easy to point the gun at something, for example, using the analogue stick. If you want to, try a game like iRacing or the like with a controller. It's basically unplayable because sim physics require precise inputs - which aren't possible with an analogue stick. Simple as that.

So, basically, you've got the choice between a game that's basically unplayable or one that helps you a bit when needed.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I tried this with sim steering off (I am running a wheel), and it was horrid. I can't imagine NOT having the simulation steering activated. Love it.

 

[PzR Crazy]

What Wheel are you using, and if it's a fanatec, is it set to more then 270 degrees?

I use my wheel set to less then 270 degrees, and with sim steering, apart from the odd little wobble, the steering is pretty much OK..

The only known issues are around countersteering when you have some oversteer, and it's mainly when set to 900 degrees..

I can't say my wheel doesn't turn to the exact point I set it to when driving around corners normally, and not heard any others really complaining.

 

[Ooze27]

They're working on it.Some sort of bug where the game doesn't recognize the correct inputs for the 900 wheel.I think Thomas from Fanatec has been posting updates on the issues and he said people to be patient because the patch takes a bit to be done adding the fact it needs to pass MS certification.they really do control everything sheesh

 

[PzR Crazy]

They're working on it.Some sort of bug where the game doesn't recognize the correct inputs for the 900 wheel.I think Thomas from Fanatec has been posting updates on the issues and he said people to be patient because the patch takes a bit to be done adding the fact it needs to pass MS certification.they really do control everything sheesh

I hope for everyone's sanity, they clean up the telemetry screens as well, the fact you see the torque alignment and other weird crap affecting the steering (or whatever Dan was on about) just leads to lots of issues and you don't know what the hell is going on!

Luckily, I turned off the telemetry a week ago, and just drive the cars, and haven't looked back, I got a De Tomaso Pantera GTS as a level up car, and that is just so amazing to drive, the constant weight transfer and old school setup is a blast to drive..

 

[magic_town]

I turned Sim steering off. There was clearly an assist with that on and massive counter steer. So now with it off I can actually enjoy F4. I always recommend for everyone to set it to "normal". And thats coming from someone that has NO assists on at all.

I thought I was the only one!
I didn't like the feeling with sim steering, just felt weird so I went to normal.
Using a pad by the way

 

[artboy76]

Nowhere near the same thing. It's fairly easy to point the gun at something, for example, using the analogue stick. If you want to, try a game like iRacing or the like with a controller. It's basically unplayable because sim physics require precise inputs - which aren't possible with an analogue stick. Simple as that.

So, basically, you've got the choice between a game that's basically unplayable or one that helps you a bit when needed.

Ok ok, i dont want this to drag on much longer, but i must just say my point is that if im aiming a pixelated gun at a sprite on screen and go to take aim and i'm a little bit off with the pad, there maybe some assists / buffers at play but what i dont expect to see is the whole gun move but without any imput from me. do you get it? basically if Forza has certain assists and buffers for controller users then make it a bit more subtle is all im saying! lol.

And if you'd ever tried to paint a car in forza with a wheel you'd know why its nice to sit back and chill out with a controller. It may not be that 'real' but can actually be nice relaxing with a beer, bit of tuning bit of painting take some pics, then maybe go for a blast. So no point in a 'wheel' v's 'pad' debate here.

Its all smoke and mirrors this gaming malarky, none of us are actually driving a real car around a real track, just that the smoke and mirrors is lost a bit with the drivers arms moving themselves around corners without your input.
Its a minor thing and i played last night and just forgot about it and had a blast.
i'll drag the wheel out tonight as its the weekend and have a play with that on sim steering.




cheers.

 

[artboy76]

I hope for everyone's sanity, they clean up the telemetry screens as well, the fact you see the torque alignment and other weird crap affecting the steering (or whatever Dan was on about) just leads to lots of issues and you don't know what the hell is going on!

Luckily, I turned off the telemetry a week ago, and just drive the cars, and haven't looked back, I got a De Tomaso Pantera GTS as a level up car, and that is just so amazing to drive, the constant weight transfer and old school setup is a blast to drive..

Awesome car, was great in FM3 aswell so one of my first purchases! stick some turbos on it and listen to the 'whistle'!! monsterous.

 

[Moglet]

just that the smoke and mirrors is lost a bit with the drivers arms moving themselves around corners without your input.

I've never seen this happen myself. I've seen the driver's hands move due to cornering forces and bumps in the track but never on their own! Is there any car and track combo that might make it particularly visible?

 

[Hazardous]

Personally, I don't even get why they implemented sim steering as an option for us controller users. It makes zero sense. It can't do what it's supposed to do unless you're on a wheel.

I mean, who's expecting a realistic experience with a pad in their hands, instead of a wheel?

You know what? I disagree completely. And that's from someone who spent more than ten years sim racing with a wheel setup (including a brief spell in iRacing) and also has done some real life track driving (all be it not that much and most of that on ice tracks).

The thing is, when you are driving really fast it doesn't matter whether you use a stick and triggers or a wheel and pedals to control the car. The crucial thing as far as realism (and, more importantly, immersion) is that the controls work in logical and immediate manner so that you can control the cars instinctively. Once you hit that point the input device of your choice effectively becomes just an interface between your brain and the car you drive.

This is where the pad steering in FM4 goes wrong. It gives you varying amounts of lock so the same instinctive input yields different results every time and it gives you the lock at varying speeds which further breaks the immersion since you can have the stick pointing towards left while the wheel is still pointing right.

It's not impossible to get this right. Look at Gran Turismo 5 for example, if you set the steering sensitivity to full in that the pad steering is very good (though still not perfect). Which is extremely annoying since in pretty much every other way Forza is far better game than GT but driving is a fairly crucial part of a driving game/sim...

I've never seen this happen myself. I've seen the driver's hands move due to cornering forces and bumps in the track but never on their own! Is there any car and track combo that might make it particularly visible?

I think what he refers to is that if you slow down mid-corner at some the driver is going to turn the wheel more. Same happens if you go off the track.

 

[imported_Tiddy]

You're using a controller, steering is always assisted. With a wheel I'm pretty sure it's now unassisted.

 

[Luminis]

You know what? I disagree completely.

Feel free to do so. I, for one, learned to drive cars with a wheel and have done so for all my live, so not having that is, well, pretty much artificial to me. More importantly, though: A controller doesn't deliver the same sort of input I'm getting from a wheel. The lack of Force Feedback alone sees to that.

I've never in my life driven a car in which the steering column (which have been steering wheels, but it would go for an analogue stick as well) did not give me any kind of feedback on what the car is doing, whatsoever.

I don't know about you, but playing Forza while sitting on my bed, legs up and all, just isn't going to give me anywhere near the same sensation I'm getting from playing that very same game while sitting in a bucket seat with a nice Fanatec wheel. Let alone from driving a real car.

Simulating something means, in my opinion, replicating the experience as closely as possible. A completely different means of input isn't going to do that, for me at least.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not sure if anyone noticed, but the OP is indeed talking about the game pad controller, not a wheel.

 

[Hazardous]

Feel free to do so. I, for one, learned to drive cars with a wheel and have done so for all my live, so not having that is, well, pretty much artificial to me. More importantly, though: A controller doesn't deliver the same sort of input I'm getting from a wheel. The lack of Force Feedback alone sees to that.

I've never in my life driven a car in which the steering column (which have been steering wheels, but it would go for an analogue stick as well) did not give me any kind of feedback on what the car is doing, whatsoever.

I don't know about you, but playing Forza while sitting on my bed, legs up and all, just isn't going to give me anywhere near the same sensation I'm getting from playing that very same game while sitting in a bucket seat with a nice Fanatec wheel. Let alone from driving a real car.

Simulating something means, in my opinion, replicating the experience as closely as possible. A completely different means of input isn't going to do that, for me at least.

You'd be surprised how immersed you can get with a controller if you get properly used to it. Then again, this is from someone who started sim racing back when steering wheels were only just becoming available and for force feedback you had to find a Hard Drivin' machine in your local arcade.

Anyway, you are obviously entitled to your opinion and that is what this is largely about, matter of opinion.

What, however, ticks me off is the assumption that if you use a controller you a) are a lesser driver who shouldn't be taken seriously and b) absolutely cannot drive if there weren't assists. Hell, I know people who used to be crazy fast back in Grand Prix Legends days despite driving with keyboard!

 

[Luminis]

What, however, ticks me off is the assumption that if you use a controller you a) are a lesser driver who shouldn't be taken seriously and b) absolutely cannot drive if there weren't assists. Hell, I know people who used to be crazy fast back in Grand Prix Legends days despite driving with keyboard!

Nine times out of ten, I'm driving with a pad myself, so I know fully well that it's possible to drive fast with a wheel. However, being someone who's also played basically everything sim-racing related since the PS1 days with a pad for the most part, I do know that games like rFactor and iRacing, which really don't assist your controller inputs, are a bitch and a half to control without a wheel.

I'm not saying that controller drivers are lesser drivers. All I'm saying is, they're using a lesser form of input device.

 

[UKMikey]

I just switched to pad/sim steering last night to eke out those extra few credits per race. The twitchier feeling is a lot like Shift 2 for me. It seems to be a lot easier to turn around that last corner in Silverstone, where previously it felt like I was drifting a little. Having completed what seems like dozens of races against the AI withou incident it's nice to have a bit more challenge involved with taking corners at speed.

 

[Spagetti69]

Anyone who says that 1 inch of lateral movement(control stick) can fully replicate 900 degrees rotational movement with out a buffer is wrong IMHO.

Wouldn't be drivable.

There's linearity, delays and all sorts going on underneath.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

What you mean to say is "Without as MUCH buffer". Every racing game has buffers to some degree. Because, like Luminis said, if it didn't it would be unplayable.

Wrong, I said EXACTLY what I meant to say. Whether every game has a controller buffer or not is completely irrelevant. Unplayable you say? Think about that for a few more minutes and just maybe you'll figure out what I'm saying.

 

[Bogie 19th]

You seriously need to take your attitude elsewhere.

I agree Spaghetti. I can't imagine how anyone would think that 900 degree wheel can be replicated on a Xbox 360 controller without an assst.

 

[Spagetti69]

What would a real car do if it could go from lock to lock in .1 of a second?

Dunno. Do Pirelli, Continental or bridgestone know? I doubt it because there is no need for them statistics.

Imagine a car going lock to lock 10 times a second, probably jump up in the air.

Then you could argue that if that was the case you have an unrealistic assist inherently built in.

Can't be done in the real world, why should pad users gain from it.

It goes both ways.

In a remote controlled car. You can push the stick fully opposite lock but you still have to wait for the mechanical steering rack to catch up with your movement.