Full SuspensionTuning Guide and Step by Step for Suspension and Transmissions - No LSD, No Rear Toe

[LateBrakR]

The best race cars are the ones that are easy to push at it's limit.

The fastest race cars have higher limits.

I've found a way to consistently build suspensions in this game that do both by utilizing the game's physics to utilize energy transfer efficiently and cleanly to make these cars perform like cars would in real life. You can momentum drive these very well. And it is surprisingly easy to replicate on any car. These tunes will feel very grounded, very planted, and will allow you to feel the road as much as the game allows.

Keep in mind that I am a horrible "tuner", I only see and understand the system very well. So I guess you can say I'm more of a builder as I care more about the engineering.

Scroll down to see **** to set up a car properly. Read on to understand more about tuning a suspension and why these tunes work so great, and why I call it "proper". I've included a few tunes to demonstrate how well my tuning system works. This is a lot of info so I'm going to get right into it.

First off, I’m not sure how much of this has been done before, but I doubt I’m the first to figure any of this out. I have learned balance tuning before but I never got it to work well, but that's where I got the idea to look at the sway bars at all.

My tuning philosophy is "simple". Any resistance is bad, and I am looking for not only balance, but harmony amongst all of the parts. They need to be working properly, together.

But that’s also why bad tunes can still work. While the parts are not doing their respective jobs well, they work well together as one part or adjustment will compensate for another’s failures. And then there are the many tunes that rely on aides to do the heavy work your suspension should be doing.

A car with an engine and properly matched transmission with a chassis that is balanced and in harmony with its suspension does not need an LSD, brake bias controller, or other driving aides like excess camber or rear toe as all of them only slow the car down for momentary control. Possibly a little throttle control is necessary if you like to build your transmissions to be just a little aggressive and angry like I do.

Yes, I've learned a lot from Tatsuru Ichishima about harmony, balance, cohesion, with simplicity and efficiency as he has always been one of my favorite tuners. I even built the Integra with Spoon gear ratios and final in a smaller box. I've also included a less aggressively tuned black Integra with Mugen gear ratios for fun.

When we step back from all the components and take everything in as a whole system, a car is just a giant weight transfer machine, and your suspension’s job is to control that weight transfer. And every car more or less begins looking exactly the same.

Except for older Porsches, they are special with that swinging hammer in the rear.

But even if you just want to dial in some parts to tune a car, it helps to understand what is going on with the parts as they are working when you need them to. And the order of events matters here.

A turn can be broken down into four sections - braking, turn in, mid-corner, and exit. Your suspension needs to be doing different things through each of these phases.

When you brake for a turn, inertia causes load to transfer to the front tires and away from the rear tires. The front suspension compresses while the rear suspension extends, increasing front tire grip potential while reducing rear tire grip potential.

During this phase, load is transferring forward, the front suspension is compressing, and the rear suspension is extending. The suspension's job is to control this transfer and keep the tires loaded.

Front too soft → energy crashes into the nose.

Front too stiff → energy can't get into the front tires.

Rear rebound too soft → energy throws the rear upward.

Rear rebound too stiff → energy gets trapped in the rear.

When you begin turning into a corner, lateral load transfer is added to the forward load transfer from braking. The outside tires gain load while the inside tires lose load, and the car begins to rotate toward the apex.

During this phase, the remaining braking load is blending into cornering load. The outside suspension is compressing while the inside suspension is extending. The suspension's job is to control this transition and keep the car balanced as it changes direction.

Outside too soft → energy falls onto the outside tires and the car feels slow or lazy to respond.

Outside too stiff → energy cannot settle into the outside tires and the car feels nervous or twitchy.

Inside too soft → the chassis rolls excessively and feels vague.

Inside too stiff → the car resists weight transfer and may refuse to rotate.

Too much front authority → understeer and a reluctance to turn.

Too much rear authority → oversteer and excessive rotation.

In mid-corner, most of the load transfer has already occurred and the car has taken a set. The outside tires are carrying the majority of the load while the inside tires are lightly loaded. The suspension is holding the chassis stable while the tires generate the grip needed to maintain the turn.

During this phase, the suspension is no longer managing a large transfer of load. Instead, it is controlling and supporting the load that is already on the outside tires. The sway bars, springs, and dampers work together to maintain balance and keep the chassis composed.

Front too much authority → understeer and a reluctance to rotate.

Rear too much authority → oversteer and excessive rotation.

Front too little authority → the front feels vague and lacks support.

Rear too little authority → the rear feels lazy and unwilling to follow the front.

Sway bars too stiff → the loaded tires become overloaded and lose grip.

Sway bars are too soft → the chassis rolls excessively and responds slowly.

When you apply throttle and begin exiting the corner, load transfers from the front tires to the rear tires. The rear suspension compresses while the front suspension extends, increasing rear tire grip potential while reducing front tire grip potential.

During this phase, load is transferring rearward, the rear suspension is compressing, and the front suspension is extending. The suspension's job is to control this transfer and keep the drive tires loaded while maintaining balance as the car accelerates.

Rear compression is too soft → energy crashes into the rear and the car squats excessively.

Rear compression too stiff → energy cannot get into the rear tires and traction suffers.

Front rebound too soft → the nose rises too quickly and the car feels loose or unsettled.

Front rebound too stiff → energy gets trapped in the front and the car resists transferring load rearward.

Too much front authority → wheelspin, instability, and poor drive off the corner.

Too much rear authority → the car feels planted but may be reluctant to rotate or complete the corner.

A properly balanced suspension allows the rear tires to accept load smoothly, put power to the ground, and drive the car out of the corner without upsetting its balance.

Looking at that, we should be able to see that a car is a giant machine that transfers load between four tires. The tires create the grip. The suspension's job is to help the tires accept, hold, and release that load in a controlled manner. Every suspension adjustment affects how load moves through the car during braking, turn-in, mid-corner, and corner exit.

When tuning, the suspension should be viewed as a system. Sway bars balance the car, springs support the balance, compression accepts the load. Rebound releases the load. If any one of those is not doing its job properly, the car becomes unbalanced and the problems begin.

The goal is not to make the suspension stiff or soft. The goal is to make the suspension balanced. When the suspension is balanced, load moves through the car smoothly and predictably. When it isn't balanced, the car becomes unstable, refuses to rotate, or loses traction.

Understanding what each suspension component does is only half of the process. The real goal is to learn how to use those components to balance the car. To do that, you need to first identify where in the corner the problem occurs. Every phase of a corner places different demands on the suspension.

During braking, the front suspension must accept load while the rear releases it. During turn-in, load begins moving to the outside tires and the car starts to rotate. In mid-corner, the suspension must support and balance the load already on the outside tires. During corner exit, the rear suspension must accept load while the front releases it as power is applied.

Rather than adjusting parts at random, identify the phase of the corner where the problem occurs. Once you know where the problem is happening, you can identify which suspension component is failing to control the load.

Before tuning springs and dampers, the car must first be balanced. This is why I begin with sway bars.

I came to this conclusion because of authority. The more I tuned cars in GT7, the more I realized that most handling problems came from one axle having too much authority compared to the other. Before I could tune anything else, I needed to balance the front and rear axles.

It also made sense to use sway bars because they are directly tied to axle authority. By matching the sway bars to the weight distribution of the car and then flipping them, I could balance the authority of the front and rear axles. Once that balance was established, the car became much easier to understand and tune.

An unexpected benefit of this approach was that it gave me a reference point for the rest of the suspension. Since the sway bars were already reflecting the weight distribution of the car, I could use that information to guide the spring frequencies. The sliders were no longer random numbers, they became measurements of the car's weight bias and how much support each end of the car needed.

From there, the process became simple. First I balance axle authority with the sway bars. Then I support that balance with the springs. Finally, I use the dampers to control how load moves through the suspension during braking, turn-in, mid-corner, and corner exit.

First I balance the car. Then I support the balance. Then I control the balance.

So here’s the workflow, the step by step:

**********

Lower the car to 5-15 above the lowest height for a base to begin with. You might choose to slam it or lift it more. You get to tune this to the car or truck.

Find the weight distribution of the car, match the sway bars to the tenths digit. You can round up or down, that is up to you. I round up to properly support the chassis.

Match damper Compression and spring Natural Frequency sliders to the sway bar sliders. 1 sway bar adjustment = 2 compression = 10 spring. *For most cars. Some are a little different.

Add 5-15 spring Natural Frequency all around to give compression space to work. You get to tune this. Spring frequency must always be above compression. But too much spring frequency will restrict compression from working.

Flip the sway bars - front to rear, and rear to front. If the car is RWD or AWD, add 1 to the front sway bar. If it is FWD, add 1 to the rear sway bar. Or you can turn the dominant side up to 8. You need to dial this in later anyways.

Rebound: 33 front, 35 rear

Camber: 0.2 front, 0.1 rear

Toe: 0.00 front, 0.00 rear

LSD: either 0, 0, 0 or 5, 5, 5

Now you can tune the car

**********

Now you have a balanced car with a properly supported platform that manages load transfer correctly. The car should feel planted, predictable, and easy to drive. But it won't be free of problems. Every car still has its own characteristics.

A Hiace is tall and wants to dip and squat excessively. A Porsche still has that hammer hanging off the rear axle. Heavy engine swaps can still create understeer, instability, or traction problems once the car starts rotating. The list goes on.

This is the tuning you want to be doing.

For example, if the Hiace squats too much, stiffen the rear suspension until it stops. Then bring the rear sway bar up to match. After that, support the front with springs to match the front sway bar. If the front now dives too much under braking, add a click of front compression. At this point, you're no longer fixing a broken setup. You're refining a balanced one. This is proper, old-school tuning.

The most misunderstood adjustment in GT7 is Natural Frequency. Many people call it spring rate, but while they are related, they are not the same thing. Spring rate is how stiff the spring is. Natural Frequency is how the spring supports the weight placed on it. Because of this, Natural Frequency needs to be matched to the weight of the car if it is going to work correctly. Too little frequency leaves the suspension relying on the dampers for support, making the car feel loose, floaty, or slidy.

Ride height is another adjustment that is often misunderstood. I used to believe cars should never be too low because the suspension needs room to work. Real cars also benefit from airflow underneath the chassis. But in GT7, we've already built the suspension travel we need into the setup, and the game does not appear to model underbody airflow in a way that limits ride height the same way real life does. Because of that, most of the ride-height slider becomes usable. Some cars, like the Amuse S2000, still dislike being too low, but that's something you tune on a case-by-case basis.

But the car must be balanced before tuning springs and dampers, this is why I begin with sway bars.

Sway bars need to be matched to the weight of the car because the rest of the suspension is built from that foundation. If a car has a 58/42 weight distribution, you may have the choice of rounding one side up and the other down, or rounding both up. Both setups can work, but they will feel different. This becomes a tuning choice rather than a right or wrong answer.

Once the sway bars are flipped, axle authority is distributed more appropriately for the car. This is why you begin seeing sway bar combinations like 6/8 or even 6/6 on RWD cars that traditionally would be expected to run a stiffer front bar. The goal is not to follow convention. The goal is to balance the car.

Rebound damping should be low enough that the suspension remains fluid and can move where it needs to be when it needs to be there. It is not responsible for carrying the load. The springs, compression damping, and sway bars are doing the heavy work. Rebound's job is to control the release of energy and support the rest of the suspension. Keeping rebound close to compression helps maintain balance and allows the car to rotate naturally rather than fighting its own movement.

Ultimately, all of these adjustments are trying to control slip angle. A tire does not produce its maximum grip when it is pointed exactly where it is traveling. Instead, it develops a small slip angle as it deforms and loads up during a turn. Too little slip angle and the tire is not working hard enough. Too much slip angle and the tire begins to slide. The suspension's job is not to simply hold the car up. Its job is to manage weight transfer so each tire can reach and maintain its ideal slip angle. When a car feels planted and takes a set through a corner, the tires are operating within that window. When a car understeers or oversteers, one end of the car has exceeded it.

Alignment is used to fine-tune how the tires reach and maintain their slip angles. Camber helps the tire maintain contact as the chassis rolls, while toe changes how quickly the tire develops slip angle and how responsive the car feels. Because of this, alignment should be viewed as a refinement rather than a primary tuning tool. If large alignment changes are required to make a car work, the suspension and weight transfer should be evaluated first. Springs, dampers, and sway bars determine how the load reaches the tire. Alignment simply helps the tire make the most of that load.

Alignment is another area where less is often more. Camber angles the tire and reduces the amount of tire available for braking and acceleration. We only need enough camber to catch the slip angle and keep the tire working through the corner. Any more than that is trading away traction that could be used elsewhere. Additional camber can make a car feel better because it acts as a turning aid and helps the tire stay loaded while cornering, but it is not free grip. Toe works in a similar way. It can improve response and stability, but it also creates drag and costs speed. The goal is not to use as much alignment as possible. The goal is to use the least amount necessary to support a balanced suspension and keep the tires operating within their ideal slip angle window.

Front toe-out can help initiate turn-in and keep the car committed to a corner, but it also creates drag and slows the car down. Rear toe adds stability, which is why most real cars use some amount of rear toe-in. We only want the minimum amount necessary. Anything beyond that is trading speed for control, and I prefer to build control into the suspension first.

The same philosophy applies to the differential. Always begin with low values, not high ones. I prefer to run the differential as close to open as possible and only add lock when the car proves it needs it.

This is how I believe a car should be tuned. Build a balanced suspension first. Support the weight properly. Control the load transfer properly. Then tune the unique characteristics of the car. Don't spend your time chasing traction, understeer, oversteer, or instability that are being caused by a suspension that was never balanced to begin with.

Once the car is balanced and properly supported, tuning becomes much simpler. At this point, you are no longer trying to compensate for a suspension that is fundamentally mismatched to the car. Instead, you are tuning the individual characteristics that make each car unique. A Porsche still has a heavy engine hanging behind the rear axle. A Hiace is still tall. A front-heavy car can still understeer. A powerful car can still struggle for traction. The difference is that these are now the actual characteristics of the car rather than problems created by an unbalanced suspension, which means these can actually be tuned out.

The first step is identifying where in the corner the problem occurs. The phase of the corner usually tells you which part of the suspension is responsible. If the problem occurs under braking, look at how the front suspension is accepting load and how the rear suspension is releasing it. Excessive dive usually means the front lacks support, while a loose rear often means the rear is releasing load too quickly. If the problem occurs during turn-in, the suspension may not be accepting lateral load properly, or the front and rear axles may not be sharing authority correctly. A car that refuses to rotate usually has too much front authority, while a car that rotates too aggressively often has too much rear authority.

Mid-corner problems are usually balance problems. This is where sway bars, spring support, and axle authority become most important. If the car understeers in the middle of the corner, the front may have too much authority or the rear may not have enough. If the car oversteers, the opposite is often true. When a car feels vague, disconnected, or unsupported in the middle of the turn, it is usually a sign that the platform itself needs more support rather than more rotation or more grip.

Corner exit is where the rear suspension takes over. If the rear squats excessively under power, it usually needs more support. If the car struggles for traction, the rear suspension may not be accepting load properly. If the nose rises too quickly, the front may be releasing load too quickly. A well-balanced car should accept load into the rear smoothly and put power down without feeling lazy, unstable, or unpredictable.

The car will usually tell you what it needs if you pay attention to when the problem occurs. Rather than adjusting parts at random, identify the phase of the corner where the behavior appears, understand how load is moving through the car during that phase, and then make the adjustment that supports or controls that movement. Once the suspension is balanced, tuning becomes less about fixing problems and more about refining the character of the car.

All you need now is a good transmission. Luckily, I took those classes too.

When it comes to transmissions we have three tuning tools: the size of the box, the final drive, and the shape of the individual gears.

The gearbox size or Top Speed (Automatically Adjusted) determines how spread out the entire transmission is, and is always the first thing to set when you build a transmission. A bigger box gives the engine more room to pull and smooths out aggressive power delivery. A smaller box packs everything together and makes the car feel more responsive, but it can become busy and run out of gear too quickly. I set the box based on the car's power and where I want it to reach top speed. The box decides the overall character of the transmission.

The final drive is the power multiplier. Once the box is the right size, the final drive lets me move the entire transmission shorter or longer without changing the spacing between the gears. A shorter final drive gives more acceleration everywhere. A longer final drive gives more speed but takes some urgency away. This is usually where I fine-tune how hard the car pulls after I've already decided what kind of transmission I want.

The individual gears are where the personality comes from. This is where I decide what gear is the hero gear, which is usually second. First gear is there to get the car moving and build momentum. Second is often where the car really comes alive. Then I stack the remaining gears based on how I want the engine to stay in its powerband. Tight spacing keeps the engine on the cam and makes the car feel aggressive. Wider spacing calms the car down and gives each gear more range. This is also where I fix problem areas like a slow downshift, a dead spot between gears, or a gear that runs out too early in a corner.

So my process is simple. First I choose the size of the box. Then I use the final drive to adjust how hard the transmission pulls. Finally, I build the individual gears around the way I actually drive the car. The box determines the character, the final drive determines the strength, and the gears determine how the car feels.

If you don't want to completely rebuild the transmission but just want to turn it up, copy the top speeds of the stock transmission and put that into a smaller box with a higher final drive.

When I tune a transmission, I think of it as a torque management system. The engine makes power, but the transmission decides how that power reaches the tires. Every gear ratio and the final drive multiply torque. More multiplication gives more acceleration, but it also makes it easier to overwhelm the tires. The goal is not simply to make the transmission aggressive. The goal is to make the car accelerate as hard as possible while staying connected to the pavement.

Because I'm building race cars, I usually start with the smallest gearbox I think I can get away with. A smaller box keeps the gears close together, keeps the engine in the powerband, and makes the car more responsive. If the box is too small, the car will run out of gear or become difficult to drive. If the box is too large, the engine spends too much time away from its best power. The trick is finding the smallest box that still lets the car reach the speed it needs to reach.

Once I have the box size where I want it, I immediately turn the final drive all the way up. This gives me the maximum amount of torque multiplication available and establishes the most aggressive version of the transmission. From there, I can begin shaping the gears to control how that power is delivered. Rather than using the final drive to tune acceleration, I use it as a starting point and build the transmission around it.

First gear exists to get the car moving. You do not want first to be so short that it instantly blows the tires away even though I build my transmissions like that sometimes, but I also do not want it so tall that the car struggles to launch. Its job is simply to create momentum and hand the car off to the next gear.

Second gear is the hero gear. This is where the car spends much of its time accelerating, exiting corners, and building speed. If a powerful car struggles for traction, I usually start by making second gear longer. A longer second gear reduces torque multiplication, smooths power delivery, and allows the car to accelerate harder because the tires can stay hooked up. Many of the fastest transmissions I have built rely on a large second gear and then stack the remaining gears on top of it.

The remaining gears are used to keep the engine where it makes power. Tight spacing keeps the engine on the cam and makes the car feel aggressive. Wider spacing calms the car down and gives each gear more range. The spacing between these gears determines how the car feels as it accelerates through the rest of the speed range.

When a high-power car spins the tires, I no longer immediately reach for a larger gearbox. Instead, I start by looking at the gears themselves. I will usually lengthen first gear, lengthen second gear, or both. If the transmission still feels too aggressive after that, then I may increase the box size. The box is no longer my first solution. It is my last solution.

My process is simple. Build the smallest box that will do the job. Turn the final drive all the way up. Use first gear to create momentum. Use second gear as the hero gear. Then stack the remaining gears to keep the engine in its powerband. If the car struggles for traction, control the torque with the gears before making the box larger. The fastest transmission is not the one that delivers the most torque. It is the one that allows the tires to use all of it.

Then go test it for it's top speed in it's top gear, set that as low or as high as you either want or need. Then tighten the gears as much as possible to clean up the spacing between each gear without changing the overall shape to make the gears as fast as possible. I opt for the lowest top speed necessary to keep more torque in the lower gears.

I think I’ve covered everything and edited out all of the rambling... And I didn’t even make one dirty joke, I’m quite proud of myself.

 

[lbpomg95]

Out of curiosity I tried a couple of your setups.

-Does the Toyota RAV4 have the widebody? Mine does, and with your exact settings it was undriveable due to wheel arch rubbing.

-The Evo 5 was really quite unstable under braking, especially at higher speeds. The natural frequency is very low, especially for racing tyres, so there's a lot of body roll which makes the car quite messy and hard to predict. I'm curious why you run the LSD on minimum settings for all your cars? Because in the case of the Evo it causes a bit of a one tyre fire as the inside wheels spin on corner exit, which increases tyre wear.

-With the GTO, the downforce balance made it quite unstable at high speeds. Is there a reason why the majority of your cars run downforce close to minimum? Is it just for a higher top speed? Also, once again it's very unstable under braking. The first sector on the nurburgring was pretty challenging.

-I tried the F40 at Spa. At Eau Rouge, braking threw it into the barrier due to arch rubbing again. I also found it unstable under braking in general, and weirdly prone to some understeer on gentle throttle. I personally would set the body height about 20mm higher, the front natural freqeuncy higher to prevent front-end dipping (even if it makes the car less agile overall), and I'd increase LSD settings.

Please don't think this is me being rude or confrontational - I'm just curious to know your logic behind some of the tuning philosophies to see if I'm missing something - if there is I always like to learn. Downforce isn't really touched on at all despite being a huge advantage on most tracks. I also couldn't really find an explanation as to why you set the LSD to 5,5,5 in all cases. Setting the LSD to the minimum usually makes MR or 4WD cars pretty unstable when braking. I get that for many people rotation is good but there's a point where it just becomes difficult to take advantage of.

 

[LateBrakR]

Out of curiosity I tried a couple of your setups.

-Does the Toyota RAV4 have the widebody? Mine does, and with your exact settings it was undriveable due to wheel arch rubbing.

-The Evo 5 was really quite unstable under braking, especially at higher speeds. The natural frequency is very low, especially for racing tyres, so there's a lot of body roll which makes the car quite messy and hard to predict. I'm curious why you run the LSD on minimum settings for all your cars? Because in the case of the Evo it causes a bit of a one tyre fire as the inside wheels spin on corner exit, which increases tyre wear.

-With the GTO, the downforce balance made it quite unstable at high speeds. Is there a reason why the majority of your cars run downforce close to minimum? Is it just for a higher top speed? Also, once again it's very unstable under braking. The first sector on the nurburgring was pretty challenging.

-I tried the F40 at Spa. At Eau Rouge, braking threw it into the barrier due to arch rubbing again. I also found it unstable under braking in general, and weirdly prone to some understeer on gentle throttle. I personally would set the body height about 20mm higher, the front natural freqeuncy higher to prevent front-end dipping (even if it makes the car less agile overall), and I'd increase LSD settings.

Please don't think this is me being rude or confrontational - I'm just curious to know your logic behind some of the tuning philosophies to see if I'm missing something - if there is I always like to learn. Downforce isn't really touched on at all despite being a huge advantage on most tracks. I also couldn't really find an explanation as to why you set the LSD to 5,5,5 in all cases. Setting the LSD to the minimum usually makes MR or 4WD cars pretty unstable when braking. I get that for many people rotation is good but there's a point where it just becomes difficult to take advantage of.

I probably should have added this in there, but I was trying to put the ideas down.

I am actually a very horrible "tuner" - I only understand chassis and suspensions and energy transfer very well. I am a systems person. I am good at understanding them and manipulating how they work. But dialing them in (and even using them)… I’m not so great at that, I think many of you are actually much better at that.

I have found a way to utlize energy transfer to make these cars work. And doing so can create better handling cars that are easier to drive.

I came up with this because I found that I was always fighting axle authority. Using sway bars to manipulate axle authority is too much, but using it to balance the weight over the axles makes these cars easy to drive. And then using a little to control which axle has more authority puts control back into your hands so you can make a car turn perfectly at any speed. The GrB 86 I have up was for the Tokyo Expressway where I dialed down the sway bars because they kept fighting the axles for authority.

And then there’s the fact that they gave us spring frequency instead of spring rates. While they are related and work hand in hand, they are different. Spring frequency is how well springs hold weight and how it works while supporting that weight when things happen, so they need to be properly matched to the weight over each axle.

But instead of guessing at how much I need on each side for balance, I’ve found a way to be sure and it showed me a clear way to use that system. And by doing this, I've found that this makes the cars very planted, without ever needing to deal with imbalance issues in such frustrating ways. And I’d love to show everyone else how to do the same.

But at the same time, the results make the cars feel like the Music Rally cars and some people might not like that.

You can tune my setups without upsetting something else.

And I am unfortunately not the greatest tuner or teacher. But I know there are enough people who understand this enough to pick this up and run with it better than I can. It would just be a waste to never get this out there.

Wheel arch rubbing under braking - the car is not too low, you treat these exactly like real cars now. The braking issue comes from the dip being too uncontrolled, the adjustment is compression and spring frequency if it happens when you touch the brake pedal. But those might already be turned up, leaving ride height being the issue so I guess I set them too low. They just need to be raised evenly all around, 1 click of compression is about 10 clicks of spring frequency.

But if it happens after the dip reaches bottom, you need front rebound, not compression.

Understeer with the F40 under throttle... that might be because I like my transmissions to be slightly violent so I can demand the rear to swing on exits. I also don't like using the brakes so much either... I use sharp and fast inputs rather than long ones - look at my name. These setups allow you to use the dip to turn.

While I might have some tunes that need to be improved, I am trying to demonstrate the way the suspension turns and stays grounded while giving you full control, I wasn't thinking about the aero. I am also a slow driver, which makes me a horrible tuner. But I am pretty sure the system that I've created is definitely solid, and that is what I am trying to demonstrate.

And then there's also that I just want to put together some kind of resource to help teach people what all of these parts do outside of the adjustments since not all GT players care to understand cars and how they work with the game's physics before playing the game.

 

[LateBrakR]

Also, a huge reason why I'm doing this - I see a lot of tunes using alignment to make a horrible suspension setup function really well. And while that mechanically makes a horrible suspension setup, it is actually quite genius in the way people utilize these tools to do all of that. I blame that on a lack of knowledge about cars, and that's fine because this is a video game and they are not engineers.

But I want to see what happens when people start using the suspension properly to rotate and control the car instead because they do all of this better, and because that's how the game was designed. And there are many much better tuners than I am. The cars you guys will be coming up with are going to be crazier than any of mine...

This game's developers really did an amazing job translating a lot of real world physics into the coding. These cars can function exactly like real cars as far as energy transfer goes, and that kind of balance is something I've chased in older versions of the game when I was younger when I still had far less knowledge about cars.

So I guess that's really what this is. I'm showing people how to setup a car in this game that properly accepts and controls and offloads energy transfer, and how to use it.

That is part of the formula that makes these tunes always feel so planted with road feel as you drive. It is why they drive like the Music Rally cars - when they are tuned properly at least.

Dialing it in is a tuner's job... I'm just giving insight on the mechanisms to make it happen.

 

[LateBrakR]

Out of curiosity I tried a couple of your setups.

-Does the Toyota RAV4 have the widebody? Mine does, and with your exact settings it was undriveable due to wheel arch rubbing.

-The Evo 5 was really quite unstable under braking, especially at higher speeds. The natural frequency is very low, especially for racing tyres, so there's a lot of body roll which makes the car quite messy and hard to predict. I'm curious why you run the LSD on minimum settings for all your cars? Because in the case of the Evo it causes a bit of a one tyre fire as the inside wheels spin on corner exit, which increases tyre wear.

-With the GTO, the downforce balance made it quite unstable at high speeds. Is there a reason why the majority of your cars run downforce close to minimum? Is it just for a higher top speed? Also, once again it's very unstable under braking. The first sector on the nurburgring was pretty challenging.

-I tried the F40 at Spa. At Eau Rouge, braking threw it into the barrier due to arch rubbing again. I also found it unstable under braking in general, and weirdly prone to some understeer on gentle throttle. I personally would set the body height about 20mm higher, the front natural freqeuncy higher to prevent front-end dipping (even if it makes the car less agile overall), and I'd increase LSD settings.

Please don't think this is me being rude or confrontational - I'm just curious to know your logic behind some of the tuning philosophies to see if I'm missing something - if there is I always like to learn. Downforce isn't really touched on at all despite being a huge advantage on most tracks. I also couldn't really find an explanation as to why you set the LSD to 5,5,5 in all cases. Setting the LSD to the minimum usually makes MR or 4WD cars pretty unstable when braking. I get that for many people rotation is good but there's a point where it just becomes difficult to take advantage of.

I was honestly a little disappointed in my tunes when you said the GTO handles horribly. But I just took a look at it to see what is wrong with it and realized that I put up the wrong tune... and yea that tune was horrible, I am sorry you had to experience that.

Give this one a try. And use the momentum from the dip to turn, you can momentum drive these. These tunes do that very well.

I don't run LSD because they hide suspension flaws. You can fix everything an LSD protects you from by dialing in the dampers and springs and having a good transmission. I feel like adding them in is throwing in the towel saying you give up on trying to build a proper suspension. Same as rear toe. Front toe is something I may opt to utilize to supplement turning for heavy engine swaps. I minimize camber, but I'm not afraid of it.

This GTO does not need an LSD. It is setup to be balanced and then dialed in with old fashioned tuning. And if I remember correctly, this one is one of the many easy ones that only needed more structure to work good. If there is still any instability under braking, I believe that is a structure issue, so more spring to the unstable axle should fix it. 5 clicks, maybe 10. But I don't think this one should need it.

The F40 does feel like it needs a couple adjustments, it might just need more structure. Ill find some time to dial it in better. But I can't get the RAV4 to replicate the wheel arch rubbing issue.

 

[Lilium]

I can totally see the problems that @lbpomg95 is mentioning, and I even like his YT Videos. lbpomg95 doing a great service for people that are afraid of tuning and like maxed out cars, aha. Keep up the good work mate.

I'll try this matching system of yours @LateBrakR, might be a fun way to discover some aspects and improve my tuning.
As your explanation uses authority and other vague terms, per example on the matching the sway bars to the weight distribution, you mean that:

A car has a 58:42 WD.
Matching the roll bars would be | 8 Front - 2 Rear.
Then flipping them would be | 2 front - 8 rear.

Am I correct in assuming this?

Also, while you believe that LSD hides a lot of bad tuning (it does, but we all love the LSD), the soft racing tyres is way worse at that. so much so that it can render a horrible tuning drivable.

Do you have any tune per example, on a 500PP CM / 550 PP CS tyres?

This makes the subtle changes much more important, and the tyres don't hide near as much lousiness.

 

[LateBrakR]

I can totally see the problems that @lbpomg95 is mentioning, and I even like his YT Videos. lbpomg95 doing a great service for people that are afraid of tuning and like maxed out cars, aha. Keep up the good work mate.

I'll try this matching system of yours @LateBrakR, might be a fun way to discover some aspects and improve my tuning.
As your explanation uses authority and other vague terms, per example on the matching the sway bars to the weight distribution, you mean that:

A car has a 58:42 WD.
Matching the roll bars would be | 8 Front - 2 Rear.
Then flipping them would be | 2 front - 8 rear.

Am I correct in assuming this?

Also, while you believe that LSD hides a lot of bad tuning (it does, but we all love the LSD), the soft racing tyres is way worse at that. so much so that it can render a horrible tuning drivable.

Do you have any tune per example, on a 500PP CM / 550 PP CS tyres?

This makes the subtle changes much more important, and the tyres don't hide near as much lousiness.

He isn't wrong... I'm not a great "tuner". Any of these can be further dialed in to do what you want. But what I am talking about is making the car work properly, actually utilizing the suspension to do it's job to make the car faster.

I can do a couple requests. Pick a car, I'll build it with only suspension and transmission. Or only suspension. You can add whatever else you want to it.

Yes on the sway bars. they act as counterweights to the car's weight distribution. But once they are balanced, the car wants to rotate from the center because the chassis is too balanced over the four wheels, so you need to stiffen one end to give that axle more authority for control to move the car through the turn properly.

"Authority" is not a term to be taken lightly. Authority is how much influence a component has over the rest. Improper authority is horrible for good balance, which means it is horrible for performance. You feel this when the car feels heavy or every time the car does not want to respond correctly to your steering inputs. When the front sway bar is too tight, the front has too much authority and you feel the front fight turn-in... that is authority. Bad authority. When a car does not want to turn in, too much authority is in the front and the rear does not have enough authority. You ideally want just enough authority in just the right places to make the car handle well without resistance which would be felt as understeer. To be clear, the resistance is understeer. Or oversteer, but we feel that kind of authority as a push or over-rotation.

These tunes utilize energy transfer properly, they do not care about tires or any of those. You might tune those into your car, but the suspension does not care. They do affect handling slightly, but I think tires really only dictate how much grip you have to brake and how much speed your car can carry through the turn. Slightly still... but for you guys that's enough, I get it.

But it doesn't matter because the suspension abosrbs energy, and while they keep the tires to the ground, they maximize the traction the current tires have to offer, they never dictate traction capacity, the tires do that. This suspension setup will do its job just fine with lesser tires.

I guess you can call these car setups more than they are tunes because you can still tune these further from here utilizing real car tuning principles and pp tuning and all of that good stuff to build a competitive car for whichever race you want to run.

But building them to lower performance levels won't build as good of a suspension as one built to higher performance levels.

It's about energy transfer with suspensions, not traction. Maximum traction is only the result of achieving clean energy transfer, even in this game.

I see a lot of tunes using alignment to put a hold on the car or create a turn angle so the chassis does not randomly sway. It is the same concept, only properly controlling and utilizing that energy with the suspension to turn rather than restricting it with alignment and LSD to stop movement.

And since you are not holding the car back for control when everything is working properly, the by-product is a much faster car.

 

[lbpomg95]

I was honestly a little disappointed in my tunes when you said the GTO handles horribly. But I just took a look at it to see what is wrong with it and realized that I put up the wrong tune... and yea that tune was horrible, I am sorry you had to experience that.

Give this one a try. And use the momentum from the dip to turn, you can momentum drive these. These tunes do that very well.

I don't run LSD because they hide suspension flaws. You can fix everything an LSD protects you from by dialing in the dampers and springs and having a good transmission. I feel like adding them in is throwing in the towel saying you give up on trying to build a proper suspension. Same as rear toe. Front toe is something I may opt to utilize to supplement turning for heavy engine swaps. I minimize camber, but I'm not afraid of it.

This GTO does not need an LSD. It is setup to be balanced and then dialed in with old fashioned tuning. And if I remember correctly, this one is one of the many easy ones that only needed more structure to work good. If there is still any instability under braking, I believe that is a structure issue, so more spring to the unstable axle should fix it. 5 clicks, maybe 10. But I don't think this one should need it.

The F40 does feel like it needs a couple adjustments, it might just need more structure. Ill find some time to dial it in better. But I can't get the RAV4 to replicate the wheel arch rubbing issue.

I'll assume your RAV4 doesn't have the widebody fitted? It's a pretty well-known issue that the RAV4 suffers massively with arch rubbing if widebody and aftermarket wheels are fitted, to the point that the body height has to be set somewhere in the region of 160mm to avoid it. Even without the wide offset.

I tried your revised setup for the GTO, and to be honest it felt more or less the same as the previous setup. It's still unstable under braking, and not in a way that's easily exploited for rotation. The natural frequency being set to around 2.50 allows for quite a lot of body roll which isn't very easy to handle on racing tyres. The lack of downforce also really hurts it. Over the crest at Pflantzgarten on the nurburgring it takes flight unless you massively slow down beforehand. If it had a rear wing and maxed out downforce it would be able to carry much more speed through the turns without sacrificing much top speed in a track setting. On route X it'd be night and day but everywhere else high downforce is almost always faster (and easier to drive). Perhaps its just my driving style, and someone else may have better results with it, but I definitely struggled with it.

In regards to the LSD, I really struggle to understand the logic. It can make a bad tune acceptable, or it can make a good tune great. Whatever the case it's a useful tool that (as long as it's set up right) helps regardless.

Contrary to what @Lilium said I actually think your tunes would handle better on less grippy tyres. On racing tyres, the changes in direction are happening so quickly that it can cause sudden loss of grip. Meanwhile every transition happens more slowly on sports/comfort tyres, so if anything I think racing tyres highlight a compromised setup more than the other options. Plus arch rubbing is worse with more grip.

 

[Lilium]

Contrary to what @Lilium said I actually think your tunes would handle better on less grippy tyres. On racing tyres, the changes in direction are happening so quickly that it can cause sudden loss of grip. Meanwhile every transition happens more slowly on sports/comfort tyres, so if anything I think racing tyres highlight a compromised setup more than the other options. Plus arch rubbing is worse with more grip.

I can see what you mean mate, and yes on a high skilled pleb level, racing tyres do show off flaws if you have a term of comparison.
But for the average pleb, lets sat a C DR leveled pleb, the racing tyres will just mask faults, where with lower tier tyres, a good tune is the difference between being able to corner / having grip.


@LateBrakR
Sure thing mate, lets say a not so agressive car.
A Lancer Evo V/VI or a Subaru IV WRX Type R

You can go ham and get all the power upgrades if you like.
Just do it as you would, on Sport Hard tyres, or Comfort soft tyres.
And if possible, a comparable tune on RS tyres

 

[LateBrakR]

I'll assume your RAV4 doesn't have the widebody fitted? It's a pretty well-known issue that the RAV4 suffers massively with arch rubbing if widebody and aftermarket wheels are fitted, to the point that the body height has to be set somewhere in the region of 160mm to avoid it. Even without the wide offset.

I tried your revised setup for the GTO, and to be honest it felt more or less the same as the previous setup. It's still unstable under braking, and not in a way that's easily exploited for rotation. The natural frequency being set to around 2.50 allows for quite a lot of body roll which isn't very easy to handle on racing tyres. The lack of downforce also really hurts it. Over the crest at Pflantzgarten on the nurburgring it takes flight unless you massively slow down beforehand. If it had a rear wing and maxed out downforce it would be able to carry much more speed through the turns without sacrificing much top speed in a track setting. On route X it'd be night and day but everywhere else high downforce is almost always faster (and easier to drive). Perhaps its just my driving style, and someone else may have better results with it, but I definitely struggled with it.

In regards to the LSD, I really struggle to understand the logic. It can make a bad tune acceptable, or it can make a good tune great. Whatever the case it's a useful tool that (as long as it's set up right) helps regardless.

Contrary to what @Lilium said I actually think your tunes would handle better on less grippy tyres. On racing tyres, the changes in direction are happening so quickly that it can cause sudden loss of grip. Meanwhile every transition happens more slowly on sports/comfort tyres, so if anything I think racing tyres highlight a compromised setup more than the other options. Plus arch rubbing is worse with more grip.

The RAV4 has a widebody. I am still trying to replicate the wheel arch rubbing, it drives fine for me.

I am not against LSD or aero or alignment. Personally, I like an open LSD on my cars IRL and I don't run high camber on my real cars either. It's the slip angle that matters, more camber just locks your car in and makes your car feel like it's riding on rails, but takes aways from traction everywhere else. I'd rather have more traction for braking, but that does cause instability.

I just believe those are supplements to your suspension and should not be tuned in as an integral part. They should be added to make a functioning car better, not tuned in as a fundamental piece. Your car should still be able to do everything without them. And I am trying to teach people who want to learn about tuning cars the same.

I am just trying to demonstrate how much work suspensions can do once everything is properly matched so the parts can actually function. And that they can actually do the majority of the work that I see a lot of tunes rely too heavily on alignment and LSD to do.

With the GTO, I think you are right, the thing does not have proper foundation yet. I was trying to demonstrate how much a functioning suspension can do by itself. I think I did tune out most of the braking instability, I didn't think what was left would matter. And I just realized that yes, that thing was still unstable under braking with comfort tires and edited this sentence in. And to your point, we want an LSD in high powered cars IRL.

I get that it doesn't help that I'm not great at dialing these things in even though I laid out the rules because I cant follow my own rules and I'm always exploring different combinations...

But using this system, You can build a car that is now balanced properly over the weight of the axles, and no parts are fighting each other. You can begin tuning out ailments without creating new ones. And it will get you there every time without guessing, and this helps casual gamers or new players.

And that is why none of these tunes have much of anything but suspension. Some of these could use some LSD, maybe even some more toe or camber, but that would defeat the purpose. That would just take control away from the suspension and just make it drive and feel too good to feel what is happening and feel the performance of the dampers.

And the thing about this is - its not really my system, everything has technically been discovered before. I'm just explaining why and how it works, even with the game's physics.

And the tires are definitely a legit arguement, and an amazing tuning tool. I've never thought about either working in this game like that before, thank you! I have an unswapped GTO with comforts that I've been using for WTC600 but I'll have to get a capture of that later. It still runs minimal aero with no alignment or LSD. LSD in this game doesn't seem to support my driving style so I make my cars perform without it. Your dampers are supposed to absorb the energy, and all of this supports it to make it work better, not the other way around.

And the benefit is that needing less LSD or rear toe or even front toe or camber will make your car faster all around.

I can see what you mean mate, and yes on a high skilled pleb level, racing tyres do show off flaws if you have a term of comparison.
But for the average pleb, lets sat a C DR leveled pleb, the racing tyres will just mask faults, where with lower tier tyres, a good tune is the difference between being able to corner / having grip.


@LateBrakR
Sure thing mate, lets say a not so agressive car.
A Lancer Evo V/VI or a Subaru IV WRX Type R

You can go ham and get all the power upgrades if you like.
Just do it as you would, on Sport Hard tyres, or Comfort soft tyres.
And if possible, a comparable tune on RS tyres

Sure, I'll put an Evo or Subie together. But why awd? They are easier on tires.

 

[lbpomg95]

The RAV4 has a widebody. I am still trying to replicate the wheel arch rubbing, it drives fine for me.

I am not against LSD or aero or alignment. Personally, I like an open LSD on my cars IRL. I just believe those are supplements to your suspension and should not be tuned in as an integral part. They should be added to make a functioning car better, not tuned in as a fundamental piece. Your car should still be able to do everything without them. And I am trying to teach people who want to learn about tuning cars the same.

I am just trying to demonstrate how these suspensions can actually work properly once everything is properly matched so the parts can actually function. And that they can actually do a lot of the work that I see a lot of tunes rely on alignment to do.

With the GTO, I think you are right, the thing does not have proper foundation yet. I was trying to demonstrate how much a functioning suspension can do by itself. I think I did tune out most of the braking instability, I didn't think what was left would matter. Where are you testing your cars? nm Nurburgring. I test my cars there too, am I driving like I'm driving Miss Daisy???

I test everything at the Nurburgring. If it works there, it'll work everywhere else, since all the other tracks are smoother and less punishing. Well, that's my logic anyway.

With the GTO I found the braking instability much the same on both setups. Most 4WD cars suffer with it on racing tyres, and a soft natural frequency coupled with LSD settings on minimum just make things worse. Setting anti roll bars and natural frequency higher at the rear, along with increasing body height goes some way to help, but really you can't completely solve it with suspension alone.

I'm very surprised you've had no issues with the RAV4. To the point that my car simply didn't turn in with your set-up. Whenever I braked, the nose squatted onto the tyres, preventing the wheels from turning. It's okay when accelerating, but braking or coasting made the car stop turning. I tried running it with and without the wide offset option, but it was the same either way, and by the end of sector 2 it was already 11 seconds behind my own setup. And my own setup is several seconds per lap down on the fastest lap/player I know of. I'm just confused at this point. I've copied your screenshot tune completely and I think I have the same aero and wheels etc.

 

[LateBrakR]

I test everything at the Nurburgring. If it works there, it'll work everywhere else, since all the other tracks are smoother and less punishing. Well, that's my logic anyway.

With the GTO I found the braking instability much the same on both setups. Most 4WD cars suffer with it on racing tyres, and a soft natural frequency coupled with LSD settings on minimum just make things worse. Setting anti roll bars and natural frequency higher at the rear, along with increasing body height goes some way to help, but really you can't completely solve it with suspension alone.

I'm very surprised you've had no issues with the RAV4. To the point that my car simply didn't turn in with your set-up. Whenever I braked, the nose squatted onto the tyres, preventing the wheels from turning. It's okay when accelerating, but braking or coasting made the car stop turning. I tried running it with and without the wide offset option, but it was the same either way, and by the end of sector 2 it was already 11 seconds behind my own setup. And my own setup is several seconds per lap down on the fastest lap/player I know of. I'm just confused at this point. I've copied your screenshot tune completely and I think I have the same aero and wheels etc.

With the GTO, after running it with comforts, I cannot disagree with that. If you want better stability, you probably do need a little LSD. But that actually works for my driving style, I can deal with that kind of instability as long as it holds a straight line until I turn the wheel. And yes, natural frequency and compression can probably be adjusted for a better foundation, which is very likely the cause for that much instability. But this does happen when the springs are too stiff as well. I'll go back and dial this in better.

I'll retune the RAV4. I could have messed something up tweaking it. But I do run factory size wheels with wide offset whenever it allows.

 

[LateBrakR]

I test everything at the Nurburgring. If it works there, it'll work everywhere else, since all the other tracks are smoother and less punishing. Well, that's my logic anyway.

With the GTO I found the braking instability much the same on both setups. Most 4WD cars suffer with it on racing tyres, and a soft natural frequency coupled with LSD settings on minimum just make things worse. Setting anti roll bars and natural frequency higher at the rear, along with increasing body height goes some way to help, but really you can't completely solve it with suspension alone.

I'm very surprised you've had no issues with the RAV4. To the point that my car simply didn't turn in with your set-up. Whenever I braked, the nose squatted onto the tyres, preventing the wheels from turning. It's okay when accelerating, but braking or coasting made the car stop turning. I tried running it with and without the wide offset option, but it was the same either way, and by the end of sector 2 it was already 11 seconds behind my own setup. And my own setup is several seconds per lap down on the fastest lap/player I know of. I'm just confused at this point. I've copied your screenshot tune completely and I think I have the same aero and wheels etc.

I went to work on this Escudo swapped GTO a little and the more I adjusted, the worse things got. To my philosophy of how all of this works, that means the tune is broken, there is no point continuing. I didn’t follow my own rules somewhere and messed something up causing imbalance in the structure.

So I brought it back to balance, fixed rotation, and then gave it a little structure for the braking instability because early braking instability is a support or control problem.

Then I increased rebound a couple clicks because the end of braking instability is a release or recovery problem. So increasing spring and compression manages the dive, while rebound allows the suspension to catch up.

Yes, I still feel it, but at this point I decided the suspension was tight enough and I can either choose to use the LSD to clean up the rest a little or leave it, but I feel there’s no need to use an LSD to control it as that will only slow the car down. But should you choose to use an LSD, you’d only need to use minimal settings to hold the car back less, still creating a faster car. Same with alignment.

Power is managed by the transmission, not the suspension. But the LSD again can be used to clean up the way the car drives.

The white one is the base tune with only suspension. That's the transmission I use, I don't think it matters as long as you use one that suits you, this one forces you to stay on the throttle which works for me. The blue one is so you stop thinking I completely hate aero or LSD, but I still keep it minimal allowing a slight instability during severe dynamic load under extreme braking conditions. But from the sound of it, this suspension is using up every bit of those tires' traction.

 

[lbpomg95]

I went to work on this Escudo swapped GTO a little and the more I adjusted, the worse things got. To my philosophy of how all of this works, that means the tune is broken, there is no point continuing. I didn’t follow my own rules somewhere and messed something up causing imbalance in the structure.

So I brought it back to balance, fixed rotation, and then gave it a little structure for the braking instability because early braking instability is a support or control problem.

Then I increased rebound a couple clicks because the end of braking instability is a release or recovery problem. So increasing spring and compression manages the dive, while rebound allows the suspension to catch up.

Yes, I still feel it, but at this point I decided the suspension was tight enough and I can either choose to use the LSD to clean up the rest a little or leave it, but I feel there’s no need to use an LSD to control it as that will only slow the car down. But should you choose to use an LSD, you’d only need to use minimal settings to hold the car back less, still creating a faster car. Same with alignment.

Power is managed by the transmission, not the suspension. But the LSD again can be used to clean up the way the car drives.

The white one is the base tune with only suspension. That's the transmission I use, I don't think it matters as long as you use one that suits you, this one forces you to stay on the throttle which works for me. The blue one is so you stop thinking I completely hate aero or LSD, but I still keep it minimal allowing a slight instability during severe dynamic load under extreme braking conditions. But from the sound of it, this suspension is using up every bit of those tires' traction.

I really struggle to understand the disliking towards Aero and LSD, especially when you focus primarily on max-tuned cars. You say an LSD slows a car down, but it simply doesn't. In almost every single case a well-set-up LSD will make every car (especially older cars that have an open diff as standard) faster, if not through raw pace, through confidence and consistency.

With the GTO, I noticed your setup now uses comfort soft tyres? I'm assuming it's still intended for racing soft? I tested on racing soft either way, and it was much better. That was mainly the downforce improving cornering and stability at high speed, and the natural frequency reducing body roll. It's still really twitchy under braking though. It's likely my driving style but I just don't get along with cars that are unpredictable.

Out of curiosity, It would be interesting to see you take a Corvette C2 (or another classic american car) which has an open diff as standard and set that up for 800hp and racing tyres with no aero or LSD. You say you don't like the LSD, so without one the C2 has its values set to zero all round, instead of 5.

 

[LateBrakR]

I really struggle to understand the disliking towards Aero and LSD, especially when you focus primarily on max-tuned cars. You say an LSD slows a car down, but it simply doesn't. In almost every single case a well-set-up LSD will make every car (especially older cars that have an open diff as standard) faster, if not through raw pace, through confidence and consistency.

With the GTO, I noticed your setup now uses comfort soft tyres? I'm assuming it's still intended for racing soft? I tested on racing soft either way, and it was much better. That was mainly the downforce improving cornering and stability at high speed, and the natural frequency reducing body roll. It's still really twitchy under braking though. It's likely my driving style but I just don't get along with cars that are unpredictable.

Out of curiosity, It would be interesting to see you take a Corvette C2 (or another classic american car) which has an open diff as standard and set that up for 800hp and racing tyres with no aero or LSD. You say you don't like the LSD, so without one the C2 has its values set to zero all round, instead of 5.

The comfort sport tires - I just learned that from you. Should I be using comfort hard tires to tune the suspension?

I agree. A fast car that is easier to push at it's limits will always be the better one.

Like how publishers loved the AMG GT R Pro much more than the Black even though the Black had more power and aero and was faster. Or the S2000 - the AP1 had a 9000 RPM redline with short gearing, but they made the AP2 better because it had a lower redline and taller gearing, making it more drivable.

I am talking about static tuning vs dynamic tuning. Rather than completely relying on geometric grip, let’s create a lot of dynamic grip first. Then add geometric grip to make things even better.

The rebound numbers that I use are not random. They are my go-to numbers because they began as numbers that worked, and then I've dialed out a lot of understeer, snap oversteer, and a lot of other traction issues that I've found on almost every car once it's been balanced. So the numbers have evolved and changed to what they are now. Like I said, when you look at cars as weight transfer machines, they all begin to look the same. Even here.

I am just proposing to let the chassis and suspension do as much as it can before we hand the job over to the aids so we can use much less of them, or when you do, they can work more effectively together rather than only relying on hold for control.

A lot of tunes are using high alignment and LSD numbers to create constraint to create grip, then a little more for control. But wouldn’t your car be faster if you created grip and a lot of control with only the suspension, and then added in just enough LSD and alignment to make it better, as compared to just turning everything up for control?

I like to use momentum to drive so I use sharp inputs when I drive.

I late brake and use load transfer to turn. I brake very late and straight towards the outside of the turn. I don’t stay on the brakes long, and I may even pump the brake pedal. Then I snap the steering wheel and drop the brake pedal to launch the nose of the car into the turn so I can aim it towards the exit and gun it. This is why I like to keep front springs and compression as low as possible.

I believe you guys would use this as a passing technique to pass from the inside.

Otherwise I go into turns hot and try to only touch the brake pedal mid-turn to rotate the chassis.

A little braking instability that is holdable in a straight line actually communicates to me if I have too much momentum to try to throw, in which case I can adjust my braking technique and entry. So I naturally do prefer more braking instability than you do. I also want a car that is always steerable mid-turn so it needs to rotate freely.

On the contrary, aero trades a bit of control for traction and stability, and therefore slows the car and also slows natural rotation. Rear aero gives the rear a lot of authority and can keep the car from turning. The front aero is just trying to give us control back by balancing out front to rear authority, but many people have begun using this and alignment as the primary tools to make their cars turn, because manipulating authority affects rotation. But I control rotation properly with the sway bars, and I prefer to only use minimal aero to have slightly improved stability at high speeds. A properly dialed in suspension can provide a lot of traction by itself already. You, especially you should only be using it for a lot of stability and traction at high speeds, the front end is just to balance out the rear aero which is what you really want for more traction.

You also lose a lot of top speed to feel like you have more control with aero.

I do not dislike LSDs, but the LSDs in the game either hold too much to utilize natural rotation well and won't properly swing the car around, or they lock and oversteer the car with my sharp hard braking. So I personally prefer 0 LSD in the game. And I do understand that is a very personal preference because of my driving style. But they also slow top speed.

Yea, I'll put a C2 or some old schools together. These guys made the chassis for a lot of these old school muscle cars very balanced and stable to begin with.

I wonder how much LSD and alignment you would need with my suspensions, to make them feel the way you like. I wonder how much lower those numbers can be from your usual setup. And I wonder how much faster a fast driver like you can be in that.

 

[LateBrakR]

I really struggle to understand the disliking towards Aero and LSD, especially when you focus primarily on max-tuned cars. You say an LSD slows a car down, but it simply doesn't. In almost every single case a well-set-up LSD will make every car (especially older cars that have an open diff as standard) faster, if not through raw pace, through confidence and consistency.

Out of curiosity, It would be interesting to see you take a Corvette C2 (or another classic american car) which has an open diff as standard and set that up for 800hp and racing tyres with no aero or LSD. You say you don't like the LSD, so without one the C2 has its values set to zero all round, instead of 5.

So this C2 is swapped, fully modified. The front toe is an old trick to stabilize the front end under hard braking, it also helps turn-in while improving steering response. This car is quite brutal and it seems that Chevy transmissions in this game are horrible with lots of power so I had to turn it down a lot to contain it. But I do enjoy driving full analog IRL - no abs for fun. This thing has widebody, 18s, wide wheel, wide offset.

Why do I not like LSDs? The M3 is a good example of why. It too, has widebody, 18s, wide wheels, wide offset.

To be clear, I am always either on the throttle or on the brake pedal, I never hover my right foot. I may even use both feet to get on the throttle and brake at the same time, and I'm often on all three pedals at the same time in a real car. So the LSD matters.

An LSD limits how much the left and right wheels can rotate at different speeds. When you turn the wheel, the outside wheel needs to turn faster than the inside, and the more you turn the wheel, the more you need the wheels to rotate independently.

When you get on the gas, the LSD intentionally locks the axle to transfer power to both wheels together for more acceleration traction instead of letting them spin independently. So when I get in the gas on my way out of a turn, the LSD locks the axle and the rear kicks out. This is something you will hear a lot of people talk about as it is the most common form of oversteer players experience.

But if I dial the LSD down to 5, 5, 5 or open even the LSD to 0, 0, 0, the wheels spin independently, and the extra torque only spins the tires.

Aero is a trade-off and whether you want heavy aero or not depends on your driving style. But with heavy aero, you do gain a high speed corner advantage, better braking stability, and better traction. But traction does not always mean faster and high speed corner advantage is not the same as rotation.

Heavy aero also creates more drag and while horsepower can overcome some of this, it can heavily reduce your top speed in straights. And as I’ve always stated, it fights rotation. But if you drive a more neutral line, aero can give you a speed advantage through the corners, probably why you like a lot of aero. But I would also say that you need to be putting down enough power to need it. Under 500hp is usually fine without heavy aero and only needs just enough for improved stability. The other is the front fighting turn in too hard until it gives and the rear snaps out from under you.

I think I understand what we are experiencing under braking. There is a bit of vibration when you brake, but it is not throwing the car around. This is wheel chatter, it is just feedback. It is not the same as instability. A little is a good thing as it tells you how much traction is available.

 

[LateBrakR]

I can see what you mean mate, and yes on a high skilled pleb level, racing tyres do show off flaws if you have a term of comparison.
But for the average pleb, lets sat a C DR leveled pleb, the racing tyres will just mask faults, where with lower tier tyres, a good tune is the difference between being able to corner / having grip.


@LateBrakR
Sure thing mate, lets say a not so agressive car.
A Lancer Evo V/VI or a Subaru IV WRX Type R

You can go ham and get all the power upgrades if you like.
Just do it as you would, on Sport Hard tyres, or Comfort soft tyres.
And if possible, a comparable tune on RS tyres

I’ve brought back an Evo. It too has widebody, 18s, wide wheels, and wide offset. Go ahead and put sport softs on it, I put it together using comfort hard tires.

As I said, the vibrations under braking is wheel chatter, it is not instability.

Now, I should find some time and update all of those other tunes

 

[lbpomg95]

So this C2 is swapped, fully modified. The front toe is an old trick to stabilize the front end under hard braking, it also helps turn-in while improving steering response. This car is quite brutal and it seems that Chevy transmissions in this game are horrible with lots of power so I had to turn it down a lot to contain it. But I do enjoy driving full analog IRL - no abs for fun. This thing has widebody, 18s, wide wheel, wide offset.

Just tried it. Considering what you're working with, it could certainly be worse. It certainly wasn't stable under braking though, and in some cases the steering jinked to one side under braking causing a few incidents. The open diff just makes the car a mess though, and without downforce, reducing the rotation with an LSD is a good thing, because it allow you to carry more pace through mid-to-high-speed corners without the car just losing the rear end.

Aero is a trade-off and whether you want heavy aero or not depends on your driving style. But with heavy aero, you do gain a high speed corner advantage, better braking stability, and better traction. But traction does not always mean faster and high speed corner advantage is not the same as rotation.

Heavy aero also creates more drag and while horsepower can overcome some of this, it can heavily reduce your top speed in straights. And as I’ve always stated, it fights rotation. But if you drive a more neutral line, aero can give you a speed advantage through the corners, probably why you like a lot of aero. But I would also say that you need to be putting down enough power to need it. Under 500hp is usually fine without heavy aero and only needs just enough for improved stability. The other is the front fighting turn in too hard until it gives and the rear snaps out from under you.

While you may prefer top speed, I struggled to get around the Nordschliefe in under 7 minutes without downforce, which is about what you can expect from a B18-swapped Fiat Panda. Once you use the LSD and aero it's quite easily capable of a 6:30. Downforce is faster everywhere except Route X and Daytona oval.

 

[LateBrakR]

Edited into next comment and deleted

 

[LateBrakR]

While you may prefer top speed, I struggled to get around the Nordschliefe in under 7 minutes without downforce, which is about what you can expect from a B18-swapped Fiat Panda. Once you use the LSD and aero it's quite easily capable of a 6:30. Downforce is faster everywhere except Route X and Daytona oval.

To be clear, I am showing people how to set up the suspension and how to add on these parts, this is not a full tune yet. Well, for me they are but I love driving analog. And I'm not really teaching people how to dial in aero or LSD either. And to really tune a car, we would need to know the driver's requirement's. Like that GTO, there was a little LSD and aero on it for you, not me.

It seems like you guys first came in expecting race tunes built for specific power levels or races, which is not what any of this is.

All of these can be customized to specific drivers or races.

And I like to rotate the cars so a neutral line may have the advantage. So yes, they can definitely be built to be faster than what I drive. Not everybody playing this game is going for the perfect neutral line to be the fastest racer yet, but everybody wants to do better. I'm trying to make it easier to do either. My builds don't only drive the neutral line, it can be rotation driven with momentum, they handle aggressive trail braking, they drift well if you set them up to... But I do understand GT7 racers do not like the extra yaw control. But that can be tuned out for you. Building a car with extra yaw is the hard part though.

The difference between my setups and others is the balance of weight and functions makes these things work like cars do in real life. Yes, there are flaws, especially in some of my tunes, but that's what we call a car's character. And those can be tuned out if you use the parts correctly. And the parts do include everything they give us which includes aero and LSD.

But with this suspension setup, you can treat tuning like these are real cars, dialing in dampers too. I see a lot of people believe dampers do nothing in this game, but they did give us the Jaguar VGT Roadster where you can only adjust the dampers for rotation to make the car turn better. And I hope I've proved that with the GTOs.

And the thing is, my cars also drive like real cars if you toss them around more. They react like real cars because everything about them are balanced. They don't just maybe drive the neutral line well if I have a better idea of what I'm doing, they do everything better.

And it's a system that abides by the system laid out by the coding, so it's easy to do without much guessing or uncertainty. And this gives me an idea of some updates that I should make. I think I'm going to edit a huge part of this tuning section, I've already been writing something up, just gotta do some edits.

I've learned to work on cars because I love them, and I've learned sciences and engineering and tuning because I love to drive. But I grew up around computer engineers and at the end of the day, this is all still 1s and 0s. And that's probably why I am so autistic about systems.

I'd love to say I've cracked the code, but they show us how the physics works with the VGTs.

 

[Highlandor]

Keep in mind that I am a horrible "tuner",

Find the weight distribution of the car

You can change the first bit if you work out the second bit correctly.... A little heads up;

A car's weight distribution in GT7 is simultaneously wrong, but right, but wrong, but right (on the exact same car at the same time - it all depends on which parts of the setup you're looking at / dealing with).

Rav 4 runs just fine on lowest ride height 105mm, with 22" wheels, widest rims and offset. Like the majority of road cars, it doesn't need a widebody conversion to run biggest, widest wheels on minimum ride height.

Tracks are directly irrelevant for suspension (once you've worked out how to do the minimum ride height setup, you can even put dirt tyres on and take these cars rallying). A track only becomes relevant to suspension indirectly owing to how much aero a car has i.e. the aero is more important than the track.

Cars can be tuned with just aero, PD kindly gave us a built in aero calculator in GT7, aslong as you leave everything else stock it works very well, the more aero you have to play with, the better it works.

Wheel arch rub is a myth, it's just the game throwing a wobbly as it's been given a set of values it literally can't compute, so it has an error 404 meme moment.

Cars that have this can be cured by adjusting springs, dampers and roll bars (without touching the ride height), all the rally ride height does it mask / hide the problem.

Best of luck 👍

 

[LateBrakR]

You can change the first bit if you work out the second bit correctly.... A little heads up;

A car's weight distribution in GT7 is simultaneously wrong, but right, but wrong, but right (on the exact same car at the same time - it all depends on which parts of the setup you're looking at / dealing with).

Rav 4 runs just fine on lowest ride height 105mm, with 22" wheels, widest rims and offset. Like the majority of road cars, it doesn't need a widebody conversion to run biggest, widest wheels on minimum ride height.

Tracks are directly irrelevant for suspension (once you've worked out how to do the minimum ride height setup, you can even put dirt tyres on and take these cars rallying). A track only becomes relevant to suspension indirectly owing to how much aero a car has i.e. the aero is more important than the track.

Cars can be tuned with just aero, PD kindly gave us a built in aero calculator in GT7, aslong as you leave everything else stock it works very well, the more aero you have to play with, the better it works.

Wheel arch rub is a myth, it's just the game throwing a wobbly as it's been given a set of values it literally can't compute, so it has an error 404 meme moment.

Cars that have this can be cured by adjusting springs, dampers and roll bars (without touching the ride height), all the rally ride height does it mask / hide the problem.

Best of luck 👍

You think weight distribution is right and wrong because you are confusing what I call "axle authority" and the chassis weight distribution over the axles.

"Control Authority" is a term I picked up from aerospace engineering. Control authority is "the maximum capability of an aircraft's control system to alter the vehicle's trajectory, altitude, or trim" and it relates as this is about how much control you have over the car. "Authority" is just my way to talk about how the different parts fight for control. When you turn the wheel but the front is too heavy to turn, that is "authority" imbalance at work, the front has too much authority and is taking away control.

I talk about this up there, but I don't think I've explained the aerospace engineering part.

Sway bars help balance out axle authority, which includes drive wheel authority, and balance even includes a proper suspension geometry. Because the sway bars are involved and they distribute weight across the four corners, how the suspension accepts the load matters too. When this isn't balanced well, you get traction issues that produce understeer or oversteer. Oversteer is usually snap oversteer so its the most important one to work out, but I care about understeer too.

I've been using the term "authority" to myself for a long time, even with real cars. I do try to explain how this concept works in this game in my guide as my tuning relies on balancing and controlling it.

I am currently working on changes to make this easier to understand, and to make this more of a step by step guide as well, I just do not have a lot of time to do the final editing lately.

I’ve fixed the RAV4, it was very easy to dial in, ibpomg95 has definitely made me more attentive and a better tuner. I just haven’t had time to update anything yet. All the other tunes and many more too.

The track matters. Most tracks are flat and only have challenging turns, but everything changes when you add elevation and speed into the equation. Also, I tune on Laguna Seca for Turn 2, the big hairpin which can be taken many different ways so I can test and tune all of the different driving techniques, not just drive a neutral line.

Hairpin turns are low speed turns where aero does not do so much and the car relies on rotation and turn radius so they allow you to maneuver the car through the turn in many different ways, also allowing you to test how well the rest of the car actually works if it can be thrown around all the different ways well.

In the straights, aero is king, but in slow speed turns, rotation is king. Those are how you use more traction through each different section.

Tuning only with any single adjustment shows a lack of understanding of how this system works as a whole. Tuning with only aero - you might as well go back to tuning with only toe and alignment. You can tune with only sway bars. You can tune with only springs. But none of them can produce a truly good feeling car by themselves.

The only thing important to height or aero is suspension stiffness for a proper foundation. Ride height and aero are only as effective as the suspension supporting it. Everything about the car is only as effective as the suspension allows.

Wheel arch rubbing - pick up a RCR Civic, 17" wide wheels, lower it to the ground and try to drive that. Fix it without touching ride height and report back here with your tune. But make it drive better too, without feeling wonky. The game's mechanics can be crazy, I want to see this if you can.

I don't doubt you, speed runs are best when you lift the car all the way up and turn spring frequency all the way down... But I learn from seeing these tunes too.

Sway bars distribute how weight transfer is distributed across the four corners, they play a huge role in balancing weight distribution. As such, they control the ratio of chassis stiffness over each axle which I call axle authority, balances with the weight distribution of the chassis in the game. All three need to be in balance with each other or the chassis won't want to rotate and you'd need to use lots of toe and camber to get it to turn. But at the same time, if all three are too balanced, the car rotates from dead center like a top.

A stiff chassis can be held very well by soft springs in this game, but that kind of build is still going to be heavily flawed, even if it works. I can get these things to do all sorts with just the sway bars, but that does not mean those builds are good or proper, and I'm just rambling on about nothing at this point.

And yea, you neutral drivers need to stop, you guys will drive anything and somehow break records with them.

But not everybody is going to be able to drive that perfect neutral line all the time and your neutral tune car isn't going to perform anywhere else.

Even if it works great, the difference is your tuning is very car specific and takes work to figure out, while what I'm doing is universal across all cars including swaps and is extremely easy to do. And let's be real, not everybody picking up this game is going to have that depth of understanding to be able to do what you are doing.

I'm using all of the parts properly including rebound which can be adjusted to fix traction issues that cause oversteer even in this game. I do go into what all of these parts and adjustments do, how they work together, and how to adjust them properly so you won't break your tune. I'll update this with better examples and a better tutorial and guide soon. I should have it up by this weekend.

If you follow my instructions to set up a car, the settings has already been dialed in to work out oversteer or understeer issues, amongst many others, and leaves only chassis specific issues to dial out. And that's usually one thing, one quirk to work out and it's different for every car, if it even needs the extra adjustment.

For example, after you've set up a balanced base and increased stiffness to give the car a proper foundation, the Demon swapped RAV4 needed a little more push to get rotation started so it need more sway bar, and the Chiron swapped ZR1 felt wobbly because one side needed more foundation and because it also needed more traction under throttle, I stiffened the rear. I'll put those up later when I update everything.

But I do need to update the instructions as I realize this is missing a few steps to what I am doing today. I've made the fixes in my update.

The other "wheel arch rub" you might hear about has nothing to do with height. Springs keep the chassis off of compression so compression can work. But if you don't have enough spring over compression, then that axle can slide around. Add the front dipping because there isn't enough spring frequency there, you get that rubbing Ibpomg95 was talking about.

 

[TNR_KING_FILO]

I probably should have added this in there, but I was trying to put the ideas down.

I am actually a very horrible "tuner" - I only understand chassis and suspensions and energy transfer very well. I am a systems person. I am good at understanding them and manipulating how they work. But dialing them in (and even using them)… I’m not so great at that, I think many of you are actually much better at that.

I have found a way to utlize energy transfer to make these cars work. And doing so can create better handling cars that are easier to drive.

I came up with this because I found that I was always fighting axle authority. Using sway bars to manipulate axle authority is too much, but using it to balance the weight over the axles makes these cars easy to drive. And then using a little to control which axle has more authority puts control back into your hands so you can make a car turn perfectly at any speed. The GrB 86 I have up was for the Tokyo Expressway where I dialed down the sway bars because they kept fighting the axles for authority.

And then there’s the fact that they gave us spring frequency instead of spring rates. While they are related and work hand in hand, they are different. Spring frequency is how well springs hold weight and how it works while supporting that weight when things happen, so they need to be properly matched to the weight over each axle.

But instead of guessing at how much I need on each side for balance, I’ve found a way to be sure and it showed me a clear way to use that system. And by doing this, I've found that this makes the cars very planted, without ever needing to deal with imbalance issues in such frustrating ways. And I’d love to show everyone else how to do the same.

But at the same time, the results make the cars feel like the Music Rally cars and some people might not like that.

You can tune my setups without upsetting something else.

And I am unfortunately not the greatest tuner or teacher. But I know there are enough people who understand this enough to pick this up and run with it better than I can. It would just be a waste to never get this out there.

Wheel arch rubbing under braking - the car is not too low, you treat these exactly like real cars now. The braking issue comes from the dip being too uncontrolled, the adjustment is compression and spring frequency if it happens when you touch the brake pedal. But those might already be turned up, leaving ride height being the issue so I guess I set them too low. They just need to be raised evenly all around, 1 click of compression is about 10 clicks of spring frequency.

But if it happens after the dip reaches bottom, you need front rebound, not compression.

Understeer with the F40 under throttle... that might be because I like my transmissions to be slightly violent so I can demand the rear to swing on exits. I also don't like using the brakes so much either... I use sharp and fast inputs rather than long ones - look at my name. These setups allow you to use the dip to turn.

While I might have some tunes that need to be improved, I am trying to demonstrate the way the suspension turns and stays grounded while giving you full control, I wasn't thinking about the aero. I am also a slow driver, which makes me a horrible tuner. But I am pretty sure the system that I've created is definitely solid, and that is what I am trying to demonstrate.

And then there's also that I just want to put together some kind of resource to help teach people what all of these parts do outside of the adjustments since not all GT players care to understand cars and how they work with the game's physics before playing the game.

You are correct on that. These are terrible setups. completely open differentials as if it's 1950, basically 0 camber on a physics engine that has a over exaggerated weight transfer. Having any toe to further put the wheels in slip and build tyre temperatures on a physics engine that both, understeers and has tyre physics that have an incredibly small slip angle. will only build tyre temps and increase tyre wear.