G.m.

[MazKid]

Actually Mazkid, it's been years and years since I've seen a Camry or Accord from the '80s. They've all rusted and gone to car heaven.... or hell.... I don't know...

One of my friends owns a mint '86 Camry, and I see more Japanese cars from the '80s than GMs from the '80s. Maybe your area is just more republican.

Either way, the ratio of GM midsizes from the '80s is far higher. Here, anyway.

Maybe in production numbers, but the numbers of GOOD condition surviving midsized cars would clearly show Japanese cars ahead of American cars.

In fact, I saw three 6000s today (and a Merkur Scorpio!). A white LE sedan in pretty good shape, another blue sedan, and a primer gray Safari (Pontiac-speak for wagon) that had seen far better days (rusted, belching exhaust fumes, engine rattling away...).

I can't recall ever seeing any '80s GM car without visible rust.

I won't even get into the number of Centurys (Centuries?) and Cieras I see everyday, but then again they were sold until 1996.

Then don't. I told you to exclude them in my post, but you didn't listen.

If there's any midsized car from the 80s I see more than anything on a daily basis, it's GM cars. A-bodies and H-bodies, for the most part.

I feel sorry for you, having to see all of those junkers day after day.

As much as it pains you to hear that, and as much as you will absolutely refuse to believe that, it's the honest truth.

Pains! Hah. How pathetic of you. You've just prooven that your area has more G.M. mediocre cars than mine, and you think I won't believe you? Why wouldn't I. Personally I wouldn't admit to living with a high number G.M.'s worst, but you did. I praise your honesty.

As for the rest of your posts... I haven't anything to say really... Ignorance speaks for itself.

Thus, you have nothing to say.

Almost forgot: for future reference, the 5-speed in the Alero was made by Getrag. Yes, the same Getrag that makes manual transmissions for BMW, the same Getrag that made the 6-speed in the Mk. IV Supra, the same Getrag that made the 6-speed for the Nissan Skyline GT-R, the same Getrag that makes the 6-speed for Porsches, the same Getrag that makes the Mini Cooper S's 6-speed... If you have any complaints about the Aleros transmission you can reach Getrag President & CEO Tobias Hagenmeyer at tobias.hagenmeyer@getrag.de .

I'm not complaining about the transmission itself(though shifting to reverse to remove the key is just retarded. Sorry), I'm complaining that G.M. would even think that a 5 speed Alero would sell. A 5 speed Grand Am is fine, but Oldsmobile, whose buyer base is either +60 or "the young and the ignorent"? If I had the choice of a 5 speed Alero or a 5 speed Grand Am, I would chose the Grand Am, just so I didn't have to tell people I own a rebaged Grand Am. The whole decision is something I would aviod at all costs.

 

[The359]

I'm complaining that G.M. would even think that a 5 speed Alero would sell. A 5 speed Grand Am is fine, but Oldsmobile, whose buyer base is either +60 or "the young and the ignorent"? If I had the choice of a 5 speed Alero or a 5 speed Grand Am, I would chose the Grand Am, just so I didn't have to tell people I own a rebaged Grand Am. The whole decision is something I would aviod at all costs.

I own an Alero, and I'd rather have it then the Grand Am. It looks miles better, especially as a coupe. The only problem is a lack of the Ram Air option on the V6.

And Oldsmobile was trying to cater to the younger crowd in their final years. The old Achieva had tried to do the same thing.

If that makes me young and ignorant...so be it.

GM screwed Oldsmobile. That's one of my biggest complaints against GM.

 

[neanderthal]

Man, that makes me want to puke. Almost as much as that Grand Am "pet store" odor found in all Grand Ams.

ive had a hard time classifying that odiferous stench found in most GM cloth interiors. that sums it up perfectly!!!!
👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

according to the history channel; the chevy cavalier was the best seling car in 1984 but by 1989, the honda accord was the best selling car.

Either way, the ratio of GM midsizes from the '80s is far higher. Here, anyway.

from my observations, based on the number of 80s cars still on the road, the imports were outselling the domestics. so who is right?

as any realtor worth thier salt will tell you, its all about location, location, location..

of course im in california, the largest car market in north america, where we typically buy imports anyway, and set the trends for the rest of the country. we also do not have attrition through rust as in the east and north, which would make our surviving car population far more representative of actual sales back then.

i was east a couple of weeks ago and saw mostly domestics as i traversed through pennsylvania, ohio, virginia etc. of course theres plenty of car plants still out there, and domestic loyalty would be high; local employment and all. most of the older cars i saw had rust on em.
i was in arizona for thanksgiving and observed a higher ratio of full size trucks. imports still ruled the cars. same as when i was in texas except the cars were more evenly mixed.

 

[MazKid]

ive had a hard time classifying that odiferous stench found in most GM cloth interiors. that sums it up perfectly!!!!
👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

Hah, I'm glad someone agrees with me on this! As a new car prep, sometimes I have to clean used cars. Fusz buys loads of used Grand Ams from auctions, and they all stink. You could unload a full can of CRS Odor Eliminator in a car, keep it with the windows up inside the building, and the next day it'll smell like a pet store again with a dash of Eliminator.
Owners know thier cars stink too - every owned Alero/Grand Am I've driven has multiple air freshiners, many have the thing that clips on the vents that puts out strong fragrances, but to no avail. The stink runs deep!
The people who drive cars that stink that much deserve an award - clearly they aren't enduring the smell because the car is any good.

 

[Firebird]

One of my friends owns a mint '86 Camry, and I see more Japanese cars from the '80s than GMs from the '80s. Maybe your area is just more republican.

Actually, I'm Canadian, so from your perspective I'm a crazy liberal pinko commie.

Maybe in production numbers, but the numbers of GOOD condition surviving midsized cars would clearly show Japanese cars ahead of American cars.

Nope. I see more GM midsizers in good condition. Not hard really, since I don't see ANY Japanese midsizers from the '80s anymore.

I can't recall ever seeing any '80s GM car without visible rust.

I can't recall seeing a '90-'93 Accord without visible rust either. At least in the last couple years.

I feel sorry for you, having to see all of those junkers day after day.

I suppose seeing Japanese junkers day after day would be better...

Pains! Hah. How pathetic of you. You've just prooven that your area has more G.M. mediocre cars than mine, and you think I won't believe you? Why wouldn't I. Personally I wouldn't admit to living with a high number G.M.'s worst, but you did. I praise your honesty.

My area of residence is "worse" because there are more '80s GM midsizers?

I'm not complaining about the transmission itself(though shifting to reverse to remove the key is just retarded. Sorry), I'm complaining that G.M. would even think that a 5 speed Alero would sell. A 5 speed Grand Am is fine, but Oldsmobile, whose buyer base is either +60 or "the young and the ignorent"? If I had the choice of a 5 speed Alero or a 5 speed Grand Am, I would chose the Grand Am, just so I didn't have to tell people I own a rebaged Grand Am. The whole decision is something I would aviod at all costs.

I can't even tell if there was a point being made in this paragraph. Something about a Grand Am...



How 'bout you take your medication and try explaining all of this to me some other time? Obviously your mental condition is compromising what few mental faculties you possess.

 

[Firebird]

If that makes me young and ignorant...so be it.

Trust me, you're not the young and "ignorent" ( ) one in this thread...

 

[1X83Z]

The summary of this? You're confusing the evolution of the midsized sedan with the evolution of the Accord and Camry (or you believe they're one and the same, which certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility, since you have conjured your own automotive history). As I had said, the '80s proved to be extremely influential to the development of the Accord and Camry themselves, but not the midsized segment. The '80s renditions of the CamCord laid the groundwork for the popularity they accumulated throughout the 1990s, but was not the groundwork of the modern midsized sedan.

The Camry and Accord are the modern midsize sedan.

The 1980s Camry and Accord laid the groundwork for the 1990s Camry and Accord.

Therefore, the 1980s Camry and Accord laid the groundwork for ... the modern midsize sedan.

All this while GM was still using red cloth in interiors.

Your defense for most of this seems to be that it didn't happen in 1985, conceding that it did indeed happen and it happened with Toyota and Honda, not GM.

Actually Mazkid, it's been years and years since I've seen a Camry or Accord from the '80s. They've all rusted and gone to car heaven.... or hell.... I don't know...

Canadians tend toward American cars in every single segment of the market. Which has always mystified me.

I can't recall seeing a '90-'93 Accord without visible rust either. At least in the last couple years.

Wow - I saw at least six today going out (in western Michigan, no less - and one was a wagon) and all were in beautiful shape. And I saw a couple 86-89s, same story. Of course, I'm more apt to notice the 86-89 Accord because they're so damn cool.

Actually, I'm Canadian, so from your perspective I'm a crazy liberal pinko commie.

 

[Firebird]

The Camry and Accord are the modern midsize sedan.

The 1980s Camry and Accord laid the groundwork for the 1990s Camry and Accord.

Therefore, the 1980s Camry and Accord laid the groundwork for ... the modern midsize sedan.

All this while GM was still using red cloth in interiors.

Your defense for most of this seems to be that it didn't happen in 1985, conceding that it did indeed happen and it happened with Toyota and Honda, not GM.

Of course the Accord and Camry basically conquered the midsize market, but it didn't happen until they became larger. The fact that they grew in size, eventually had V6 engines, etc. was the direct result of cars like the A-bodies which had defined a basic size and shape of car that had been proven to be desireable as a result of their sales. Honda and Toyota took the idea and ran with it.

Canadians tend toward American cars in every single segment of the market. Which has always mystified me.

Yeah, I don't know how the hell that works... Even to this day they sell very well. GM sells about 400,000, then Ford and Chrysler sell about half that much each, then Toyota and Honda sell about half as much as Ford and Chrysler, and then Nissan, Mazda and Hyundai sell half a much as Toyota and Honda.

Wow - I saw at least six today going out (in western Michigan, no less - and one was a wagon) and all were in beautiful shape. And I saw a couple 86-89s, same story. Of course, I'm more apt to notice the 86-89 Accord because they're so damn cool.

It's been a long time since I've seen an '86-'89 Accord. The odd '90-'93 is still kickin' around, but as I said all of them are starting to get rusty. Sad really, they're very attractive cars. Especially those '90-'93 wagons!

I had written more, actually, but couldn't make a coherent sentence having to do with being a mountie pothead who supports gay marriage, lives in an igloo, says "Eh?" a lot.

 

[1X83Z]

Of course the Accord and Camry basically conquered the midsize market, but it didn't happen until they became larger. The fact that they grew in size, eventually had V6 engines, etc. was the direct result of cars like the A-bodies which had defined a basic size and shape of car that had been proven to be desireable as a result of their sales. Honda and Toyota took the idea and ran with it.

Fine. I will give you size. Only because I don't know the lengths of the original GMs, or the original Camry or Accord, or the current average.

I'm not ready to concede the V6 - it was what the market clearly wanted, and I'm not sure that's due to GM.

Yeah, I don't know how the hell that works... Even to this day they sell very well. GM sells about 400,000, then Ford and Chrysler sell about half that much each, then Toyota and Honda sell about half as much as Ford and Chrysler, and then Nissan, Mazda and Hyundai sell half a much as Toyota and Honda.

Does Canada still get Lada?

It's been a long time since I've seen an '86-'89 Accord. The odd '90-'93 is still kickin' around, but as I said all of them are starting to get rusty. Sad really, they're very attractive cars. Especially those '90-'93 wagons!

- it's even got a spot of visible rust.

I'm honestly surprised how rare you say older Accords are up there - here, they're literally a dime a dozen - a guy (or girl, perhaps) a few houses down from me has a green one, coupe I think (and the neighbors have a 94-97, silver sedan; I think it's a V6, even. And disabled vet plates. Yeah right, disabled my ass. They've also got like six Cadillacs. And by six I mean two - in fact, they bought a CTS last week so before that it was just one. Where did six come from?); a couple blocks over there's an 86-89 Accord and on the street they're everywhere (I'm trying to think if I know people with them, but I'm coming up empty. Some guy down the street has a new EX-L, and a '67 Corvette. And an old Cherokee, with the spare mounted on the back. But irrelevant).

I do live in a rather liberal section though, so I wouldn't be too surprised if it's not exactly a cross-section of the whole of western Michigan (in fact, I'm sure it's not - here, the kind of person who would normally get an E320 gets a Lincoln LS; it throws off the whole social order). Still, old Accords are everywhere. Though I can't remember the last time I saw an 86-89 3-door hatch. I think I see 5-doors from time to time, but I can't tell the difference. The other day I saw a Celica with a trunk and was stunned, though that's irrelevant. Once again.

I had written more, actually, but couldn't make a coherent sentence having to do with being a mountie pothead who supports gay marriage, lives in an igloo, says "Eh?" a lot.

Most Americans have forsaken their anti-Canada stereotypes and instead prefer to make fun of various groups of Europeans. After all, Canadians are just Americans without guns.

 

[The359]

Hah, I'm glad someone agrees with me on this! As a new car prep, sometimes I have to clean used cars. Fusz buys loads of used Grand Ams from auctions, and they all stink. You could unload a full can of CRS Odor Eliminator in a car, keep it with the windows up inside the building, and the next day it'll smell like a pet store again with a dash of Eliminator.
Owners know thier cars stink too - every owned Alero/Grand Am I've driven has multiple air freshiners, many have the thing that clips on the vents that puts out strong fragrances, but to no avail. The stink runs deep!
The people who drive cars that stink that much deserve an award - clearly they aren't enduring the smell because the car is any good.

My Alero doesn't have any smell problems. Maybe it's whoever is sitting in your cars...

 

[Firebird]

Does Canada still get Lada?

Nope. It's been... 6? 7? years...

I'm honestly surprised how rare you say older Accords are up there - here, they're literally a dime a dozen - a guy (or girl, perhaps) a few houses down from me has a green one, coupe I think (and the neighbors have a 94-97, silver sedan; I think it's a V6, even. And disabled vet plates. Yeah right, disabled my ass. They've also got like six Cadillacs. And by six I mean two - in fact, they bought a CTS last week so before that it was just one. Where did six come from?); a couple blocks over there's an 86-89 Accord and on the street they're everywhere (I'm trying to think if I know people with them, but I'm coming up empty. Some guy down the street has a new EX-L, and a '67 Corvette. And an old Cherokee, with the spare mounted on the back. But irrelevant.

I do live in a rather liberal section though, so I wouldn't be too surprised if it's not exactly a cross-section of the whole of western Michigan (in fact, I'm sure it's not - here, the kind of person who would normally get an E320 gets a Lincoln LS; it throws off the whole social order). Still, old Accords are everywhere. Though I can't remember the last time I saw an 86-89 3-door hatch. I think I see 5-doors from time to time, but I can't tell the difference. The other day I saw a Celica with a trunk and was stunned, though that's irrelevant. Once again.

For whatever reason the Japanese have had very poor rust protection. Accords, 1990-1997, usually have at least a little bit of rust around the trunk lid or fenders. Cases of engines outlasting the car are pretty common for an older Accord. Two aunts of mine had pre-'86 Accords, and they didn't last more than five years before they became very rusty, and another two to five until they became undriveable due to the rust.

Anyway, I poked my head out the front window, and counted:

- 2 1987-1991 Ford F-150s (one is a company truck)
- 2 1992-1996 Ford F-150s (both are company trucks)
- 1 1997-2003 Ford F-150
- 1 1999-2004 Ford F-250 (another company truck)
- 1 1990-1996 Dodge Grand Caravan
- 1 Pontiac Montana
- 2 1992-1995 Honda Civics
- 1 2000-present Honda Civic
- 1 Acura 1.7EL
- 1 Mazda MX6 Mystère
- 1 1997-2001 Jeep Cherokee
- 1 Chevrolet Celebrity
- 1 1982-1989 Buick Skyhawk
- 1 1998-2004 Chrysler Intrepid
- 1 1995-1999 Plymouth Neon
- 1 Chevrolet Astro (looks early '90s at youngest)
- 1 ????-1985 Buick LeSabre
- 1 Infiniti FX35
- 1 1999-2002 Mercury Cougar

Most Americans have forsaken their anti-Canada stereotypes and instead prefer to make fun of various groups of Europeans. After all, Canadians are just Americans without guns.

Being Canadian has its perks, besides basically being Americans with no guns. The world, on the whole, tends to like us, whereas they tend to want to kill you guys.

 

[1X83Z]

Nope. It's been... 6? 7? years...

I know of Lada in Canada at least as late as 1996. Those things were funny.

For whatever reason the Japanese have had very poor rust protection. Accords, 1990-1997, usually have at least a little bit of rust around the trunk lid or fenders. Cases of engines outlasting the car are pretty common for an older Accord. Two aunts of mine had pre-'86 Accords, and they didn't last more than five years before they became very rusty, and another two to five until they became undriveable due to the rust.

One of my friends has a 1985 Accord sedan, with more than 200,000mi on it and it's just recently had problems. And by 'problems' I mean there's something wrong with it that's causing it to not pass state inspection - something in the engine; I knew it once but forgot since last Friday. I don't think it's got any rust on it, though.

Anyway, I poked my head out the front window, and counted:

This is really interesting to me - they're practically all domestic! Or very mainstream import, except the FX35. Once I saw an Acura EL, in California. When I consider the cars my neighbors drive, I get:

- 98 Toyota Camry / 03 Mazda Tribute / 96 Volvo 850 Turbo sedan / 96 Ford Explorer Sport
- 99 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
- 99-pres BMW 328i / 03 Toyota Land Cruiser
- 03 Honda CR-V / 02 Honda Passport
- 01 Toyota Avalon
- 94-97 Honda Accord sedan / 95ish Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham / 04 Cadillac CTS / 01 Chevrolet Silverado / mid-80s Chevrolet Suburban
- 04 Audi A6 2.7T sedan
- 02 Honda Odyssey / 04 Acura TL / 70s Volkswagen Beetle
- 04 Acura TL / early-90s 2-door Chevrolet Blazer / late-80s Acura Legend / 91 Mercedes 560SEL
- 91-96 Infiniti G20 / 00 Toyota Camry
- mid-90s Subaru Legacy / 02 Subaru Outback wagon
- 96ish Ford Windstar / 02 Kia Optima / mid-90s Lexus GS300
- mid-90s Cadillac Eldorado / 00 Cadillac Catera
- late-90s Ford Expedition / 02 Subaru Outback sedan
- 01 Toyota Highlander / 03 Cadillac Deville
- mid-90s Ford Expedition / 97-99 Toyota Camry
- 98ish Subaru Outback wagon / 01-02 Lexus RX300
- 97-00 Audi A4 2.8 / 92-96 Lexus ES300

And I live in the supposed American car capital of the world. Actually, I think we've discovered the true American car capital of the world: Canada!

 

[Firebird]

I know of Lada in Canada at least as late as 1996. Those things were funny.

They were terrible, terrible cars. You think GM is/was behind the times... Ladas still used single-barrel carbs well into the '90s. I see them once in a while, usually a Niva. Occasionally a Samara. And I used to see a 1500 sedan on the way to work.

I'd like to buy a Niva and fix it up, just for ****s and giggles. I doubt it would cost me more than $50 to buy one.

This is really interesting to me - they're practically all domestic! Or very mainstream import, except the FX35.

The same guy bought BMWs for years. He used to have a 5-series wagon and an M Coupe. Definitely the odd duck in the neighbourhood.

And I live in the supposed American car capital of the world. Actually, I think we've discovered the true American car capital of the world: Canada!

Seems that way.

 

[1X83Z]

They were terrible, terrible cars. You think GM is/was behind the times... Ladas still used single-barrel carbs well into the '90s. I see them once in a while, usually a Niva. Occasionally a Samara. And I used to see a 1500 sedan on the way to work.

For the record, I actually don't think GM's behind in the times anymore - I like many of their products these days. The Malibu may use a pushrod V6, for instance, but it gets better fuel economy than any of its competitors, even if it gets 20% less power...

 

[87chevy]

The new Inline truck engines are good too. the new I5, and I4 built off the I6 in the Trailblazer are actually good engines. GM's slow to change because people still buy their stuff. And their GIGANTIC. That probably has something to do with it. Pleasing the masses is so ingrained in their heads that they seem to refuse to push the envelope in ANY way. Let's face it, the only reason the new Vettes have so much power is because they have to, other wise no one would buy them. But, every time i start my 350ci V8 truck, I'm reminded of how much I love Chevy. Maybe not for what they are doing now, but for what they have done.

 

[Sage]

- 02 Honda Odyssey / 04 Acura TL / 70s Volkswagen Beetle

Well that's an interesting combination!

- mid-90s Cadillac Eldorado / 00 Cadillac Catera

I've literally seen like 3 Cateras in my life. My aunt and uncle bought one when they first came out (bought, not leased) and were so dissatisfied with it that they dumped it after only 2 years, and bought an Audi A6 instead.

 

[1X83Z]

Well that's an interesting combination!

They actually also have an 80s Grand Caravan as well, and some other car - maybe an old TL, but I'm pressed to remember. I think the story on those people is they don't sell their previous cars - I'd bet the Beetle is one of their first cars. Also, their neighbors (TL, 560SEL, Blazer, Legend) bought a blue '04 TL a few weeks before they did, so I'm wondering if it came recommended.

I've literally seen like 3 Cateras in my life. My aunt and uncle bought one when they first came out (bought, not leased) and were so dissatisfied with it that they dumped it after only 2 years, and bought an Audi A6 instead.

I see Cateras all the damn time. You people don't see enough cars. The people who own that one are out of the target market though - they're pushing 85 at the very least.