G27, heel/toe, no ABS, fun way to learn!

[Enzo_Guy]

So I have a G27 and typically used ABS 1 to help stay competitive online with the heel/toe shifts. However, if you're like me and usually use ABS because you were having difficulties then the OCD has some perfect cars for you to learn no ABS heel/toe driving!

Grab a '65 Giulia GTA, '63 Speciale, or '66 Spider Duetto, or maybe use your own Lotus Elan or similar classic 4-cylinder European sports car, leave it unmodified. The Elan has a nice front bias that will help and using some sticky tires can also keep lockup away. Now take your cute little classic sports car to Eiger Norwand short track, the lower speed mountain drive kind of thing is great fun. Not much power, older weaker brakes, short ratio gearboxes, and quick handling make getting a handle on no ABS shifting is made relatively simple all while enjoying a classic sports car!👍

Anybody else love driving these cars stock through this little mountain course with no ABS and hell/toe shifting? It's between the Elan and Giulia GTA for my favorite.

NOTE: Avoid the Spitfire and Europa at first, these tend to kick the rear around a little more often.

 

[taz]

Sounds like that's gonna be fun Enzo. I'll have to try that one day

 

[JDMKING13]

Driving with no ABS with the right brake bias Is the best feeling in GT5. Makes the car comes alive!

 

[tuga703]

I love driving without ABS on old cars, my favourite is a mildly tuned Toyota 2000GT

 

[QB1o]

I been driving everything without ABS for some time now and everything drives better with the right brake settings.

Use a bias of 3:1 for comfort soft unless the back kicks out on each turn, then set it to 3:0

I use 3:1 or 4:1 for sports/hard tyres too, this leaves you still able to lock up the brakes if you need to, but shouldn't cause any trouble with unwanted lock-ups.

Some excellent cars i've found for heel-toe and LFB fun times are the Chrysler Crossfire, the subaru legacy B4, Lotus esprit HC turbo and the TVR V8S.
Anything with much more power than that and i'm all left feet, unfortunately.

 

[Lambob]

The Nissan GTR35TC don't need ABS on the Nordschleife. Just raise both heights, approx 3~5mm, and lower the Brake Bias; down to 3/2 as example. You can fly across this track in under 6 minutes with no danger. and no ABS, no aids.

 

[XEPEGTP]

NOTE: Avoid the Spitfire and Europa at first, these tend to kick the rear around a little more often.

You have a good philosophy, pure real(as possible) driving.

But theres one point i must stress, and that is to ADJUST the BRAKE BALANCE for EVERY CAR, by default its 5\5 even split and this is what causes LOCKUP and BRAKE OVERSTEER.

Pre 80s cars i use 2F0R for stock and 3\1 for race cars
80s-today 3\1 for stock and 5\2 for race.

Use These values and you will find playing with no ABS and even Comfort tires much more fun and rewarding, it just SUCKS that we have to adjust this brake balance EVERY TIME, like in GT4 having to turn off all aids manually EVERY time.

PS: I have created a Toscana track specifically for the purpose of "one lane" driving, like ona country road, so this is something i share with you, driving for fun, in low revs just cruising, then i take a lap blasting through the sections.

DM me if you want to give it a go.

 

[JDMKING13]

If the rear is kicking out during breaking the car needs tuning or your breaking technique is bad. ABS 1 hides many people bad braking technique, with it off you will see people spinning out of control during braking all the time. As for brake bias I set it up depending on the car not the tires. ZR-1 09 has 4/F 2/R. old Miata has 1/F 0/R. I have my own ABS system in my league, and some of you guys who drive with ABS off should definitely give my ZR-1 challenge a go. I want to see who can really drive around this community. 👍

@ XEPEGTP You have to change the settings for cars you haven't change, but once you change them it stays like that including ABS TCS and ASM. I actually have fun trying to set the brake bias for all the cars.

 

[Enzo_Guy]

You have a good philosophy, pure real(as possible) driving.

But theres one point i must stress, and that is to ADJUST the BRAKE BALANCE for EVERY CAR, by default its 5\5 even split and this is what causes LOCKUP and BRAKE OVERSTEER.

PS: I have created a Toscana track specifically for the purpose of "one lane" driving, like ona country road, so this is something i share with you, driving for fun, in low revs just cruising, then i take a lap blasting through the sections.

DM me if you want to give it a go.

I've never used aids on GT5 except ABS. I had a Logitech Driving Force Pro with only tiptronic and paddles at first before I got my G27 in December, 2010. Years before getting into racing I had my own heel/toe technique from driving medium and heavy trucks with 2-way splitters and even a couple old twin sticks if I'm remembering right. So with that new G27 I either had to start from scratch or develop my backwards way of doing it. My technique had worked for double clutching and double tapping the throttle while working 2 sets of ratios so I figured it was good enough for racing. Since I was making this up as I went along I needed ABS to balance it out while making my style fast enough for competitive racing. Now I'm to the point where I'm starting to lose the need for ABS, it's making these classic cars I already love a hundred times more!

Agreed with adjusting the brake distribution. I was referring more to the weight balance of the Spitfire and Europa being too prone to oversteer, they might make trying to learn not locking the brakes harder when tend to kick the rear out anyways.

That Toscana track sounds sweet, you and I appreantly think alike as I have 3 or so of those myself!

 

[JDMKING13]

I've never used aids on GT5 except ABS. I had a Logitech Driving Force Pro with only tiptronic and paddles at first before I got my G27 in December, 2010. Years before getting into racing I had my own heel/toe technique from driving medium and heavy trucks with 2-way splitters and even a couple old twin sticks if I'm remembering right. So with that new G27 I either had to start from scratch or develop my backwards way of doing it. My technique had worked for double clutching and double tapping the throttle while working 2 sets of ratios so I figured it was good enough for racing. Since I was making this up as I went along I needed ABS to balance it out while making my style fast enough for competitive racing. Now I'm to the point where I'm starting to lose the need for ABS, it's making these classic cars I already love a hundred times more!

Agreed with adjusting the brake distribution. I was referring more to the weight balance of the Spitfire and Europa being too prone to oversteer, they might make trying to learn not locking the brakes harder when tend to kick the rear out anyways.

That Toscana track sounds sweet, you and I appreantly think alike as I have 3 or so of those myself!

With ABS on 1 there is no need for heel toe technique because ABS 1 in GT5 works to damn good. With it off you will notice those RPM jumping during hard braking upsetting the car balance if you don't have good braking technique. I love GT5 with ABS off it makes you alert during the whole race. In my opinion you are not really getting the real sensation of the car unless you drive with ABS 0.

ABS1 in my opinion works more like a stability assist than actual ABS. Just do the test for yourself drive to 80 mph and slam on the brakes, you will see no skid marks from the ABS system kicking in. It should look something like this
= = = = = In GT5 we get nothing. At least with ABS off you get __ __ __ indicating "this would be when the ABS system kick in. ABS 0 actually feels like real ABS to me with the correct brake bias minus the wheel lock, but even when you lock the wheels just release the brake a little and your good. 👍

 

[Enzo_Guy]

With ABS on 1 there is no need for heel toe technique because ABS 1 in GT5 works to damn good. With it off you will notice those RPM jumping during hard braking upsetting the car balance if you don't have good braking technique. I love GT5 with ABS off it makes you alert during the whole race. In my opinion you are not really getting the real sensation of the car unless you drive with ABS 0.

After some practice driving with ABS off, I'd agree with you things are very different without it. Before the brake pedal meant you slowed down, without it there's one more element of the car (and a huge one) that adds to the total package to make the car feel like fun.

As for running ABS 1, I realize you don't need to actually rev match downshifts with the ABS on. I was using it as my training wheels, I had the motion down for a different application (albeit very different from what you would see a true racing driver doing since I more taught myself without knowing how the experts did it), I just needed to perfect the muscle memory of being able to react and accomplish it with the reflexes needed for racing. I just needed the ABS to help keep me on the road while I learned to do it all fast enough instinctively and not fudge a crucial moment. Sort of lowering the learning curve, if that makes any sense.

 

[Spagetti69]

What's does ABS 10 do? I am assuming it goes up to 10.

 

[HighPlainsDrftr]

I guess I need more practice because I always have ABS set to 1. Maybe I will start to experiment with ABS 0 at least on the older cars that wouldn't have had it. I notice most people that mention it have a higher front bias, maybe I should start there.
PS, using DFGT wheel.

 

[sik180sx]

I honestly have never used abs, to me driving is about being one with my car,to me driving with assists on would make it harder to transition to no assists at all(my opinion).
With no assists from the start ,if you make a mistake you will learn from it,but if you have something stepping in all the time trying to fix things for you,it blurs the line that you crossed when putting your car into a loss of control situation.

Just my two cents,and don't get me wrong because i'm glad there is abs and the like,for the people who play casually but i think if your serious about your sim driving,especially having a decent wheel set-up, NO assists at all is the best way to learn.
Heel toe braking is heaps satisfying when pulled of properly,Fuji being a great example,flying down the main straight,6th 305 km/h,on the brakes hard around 250 metre mark, 6th to 4th, 4th to 2nd, corner :tup:so much fun.

 

[JDMKING13]

After some practice driving with ABS off, I'd agree with you things are very different without it. Before the brake pedal meant you slowed down, without it there's one more element of the car (and a huge one) that adds to the total package to make the car feel like fun.

As for running ABS 1, I realize you don't need to actually rev match downshifts with the ABS on. I was using it as my training wheels, I had the motion down for a different application (albeit very different from what you would see a true racing driver doing since I more taught myself without knowing how the experts did it), I just needed to perfect the muscle memory of being able to react and accomplish it with the reflexes needed for racing. I just needed the ABS to help keep me on the road while I learned to do it all fast enough instinctively and not fudge a crucial moment. Sort of lowering the learning curve, if that makes any sense.

I agree with you Buddy and I like your style, shoot me a FR I would love for you to join my ZR1 challenge.

I guess I need more practice because I always have ABS set to 1. Maybe I will start to experiment with ABS 0 at least on the older cars that wouldn't have had it. I notice most people that mention it have a higher front bias, maybe I should start there.
PS, using DFGT wheel.

Please give it a try you will love it once you get use to it.

What's does ABS 10 do? I am assuming it goes up to 10.

It just lets you ride the brake more while your turning.

DM me if you want to give it a go.

Was a pleasure practicing with you, let me know when we can practice more. I did a 1:39.8 with my DS3. Remember 4/F 2/R brake bias.

 

[XEPEGTP]

Was a pleasure practicing with you, let me know when we can practice more. I did a 1:39.8 with my DS3. Remember 4/F 2/R brake bias.

You too!

Nice, i actually got exactly the same time a 1:39.8(44 IIRC) this morning with the DS3 but OFFLINE, and with less effort, maybe muscle memory played its part but it felt like OFFLINE tires have just a tad more grip so its not as squirrely as Online. Cant prove this and its pure speculation.

And of course No ABS\TCS\ASM w\ CS tires and 4\2 BD.

 

[OK8]

it felt like OFFLINE tires have just a tad more grip so its not as squirrely as Online. Cant prove this and its pure speculation.

Yeah many people say offline has more grip. Haven't really experienced it completely myself (I rarely drive offline) but many people can prove it to you.

I agree with what JDMKING said about ABS, it's some sort of weird "braking assist" instead of anti lock brakes. I race in one league where the level of competition is so high I can't give myself any optional handicap so I have to use ABS 1 and I don't like it at all. When you're braking hard it suddenly feels like the tyres are no longer touching the track, the car goes into some sort of limbo stuck in no-man's-land when you were supposed to have a big slide but instead nothing happens. Without ABS the response of the car is very linear, there's no sudden change in physics, everything you do affects the car and there's no way to run away from it. 👍

Even if you do perfect shifts with the clutch, you're still only as fast as shifting without it, but even knowing this I still can't stop using clutch mainly because heel and toe just feels so good. Braking without ABS combined with downshifting a couple gears is a very intense experience and I love the way you can feel everything, the tyres losing contact with the road in bumps and the way the balance is altered if you shift down too fast. Even the way you come off the brakes after heavy deceleration takes skill and technique, you have to adjust with the wheel and feel your way through the process until you know you can slowly lift your foot off the brake.

How much can I rant about such a simple thing? A lot. Sometimes I just love this game. (I just really hope I find a good SuperGT league for next season which doesn't allow ABS)

 

[XEPEGTP]

Yeah many people say offline has more grip. Haven't really experienced it completely myself (I rarely drive offline) but many people can prove it to you.

I agree with what JDMKING said about ABS, it's some sort of weird "braking assist" instead of anti lock brakes.

Yes and the ABS effect is very noticeable when downshifting, as Enzo and JDM mentioned, you have to properly time the downshifts or have to deal with the sudden and drastic weight shift with improperly timed downshifts causing spin-outs and extreme instability. Real Heel-Toe, which is useless with ABS on as it matches revs automatically. Very nice.

One thing i havent been able to do effectively is drive with no ABS on Gravel or Snow, but i think it has more to do with being unfamiliar with the technique necessary or learning how to read the signs.

Still, PD needs to fix this ABS system, because fact is, it is present on nearly ALL modern cars since the early 90s and has been in some cars as early as the mid 70s, so it would be great if PD could revise the Brakes and ABS systems.

Detach the ABS system from any Stability Management\Control and give us plain old Anti Lock Brakes the way its meant to be, the only reason some wont use ABS is because if the "side-effects" it imposes on the physics, as in, it does MORE than just keep your brakes from locking.

But "realistically" any car you step in, including super cars sports cars, performance cars, have an ABS system, to maximize performance, so the human can take the car to its limit, rather than the car taking the human to his limit.

 

[JDMKING13]

Yeah many people say offline has more grip. Haven't really experienced it completely myself (I rarely drive offline) but many people can prove it to you.

I agree with what JDMKING said about ABS, it's some sort of weird "braking assist" instead of anti lock brakes. I race in one league where the level of competition is so high I can't give myself any optional handicap so I have to use ABS 1 and I don't like it at all. When you're braking hard it suddenly feels like the tyres are no longer touching the track, the car goes into some sort of limbo stuck in no-man's-land when you were supposed to have a big slide but instead nothing happens. Without ABS the response of the car is very linear, there's no sudden change in physics, everything you do affects the car and there's no way to run away from it. 👍

Even if you do perfect shifts with the clutch, you're still only as fast as shifting without it, but even knowing this I still can't stop using clutch mainly because heel and toe just feels so good. Braking without ABS combined with downshifting a couple gears is a very intense experience and I love the way you can feel everything, the tyres losing contact with the road in bumps and the way the balance is altered if you shift down too fast. Even the way you come off the brakes after heavy deceleration takes skill and technique, you have to adjust with the wheel and feel your way through the process until you know you can slowly lift your foot off the brake.

How much can I rant about such a simple thing? A lot. Sometimes I just love this game. (I just really hope I find a good SuperGT league for next season which doesn't allow ABS)

I agree with you 100% man I can talk about the ABS topic forever, and people who say ABS1 is good or real really have no clue. This is why in my league If you turn off ASM the ABS has to be turned off automatically, Unless your car has some type of electronic driving mode like BMW M3 07. I will do everything to get good drivers so I can have a SuperGT season in PGTR. 👍

Yes and the ABS effect is very noticeable when downshifting, as Enzo and JDM mentioned, you have to properly time the downshifts or have to deal with the sudden and drastic weight shift with improperly timed downshifts causing spin-outs and extreme instability. Real Heel-Toe, which is useless with ABS on as it matches revs automatically. Very nice.

One thing i havent been able to do effectively is drive with no ABS on Gravel or Snow, but i think it has more to do with being unfamiliar with the technique necessary or learning how to read the signs.

Still, PD needs to fix this ABS system, because fact is, it is present on nearly ALL modern cars since the early 90s and has been in some cars as early as the mid 70s, so it would be great if PD could revise the Brakes and ABS systems.

Detach the ABS system from any Stability Management\Control and give us plain old Anti Lock Brakes the way its meant to be, the only reason some wont use ABS is because if the "side-effects" it imposes on the physics, as in, it does MORE than just keep your brakes from locking.

But "realistically" any car you step in, including super cars sports cars, performance cars, have an ABS system, to maximize performance, so the human can take the car to its limit, rather than the car taking the human to his limit.

I agree with you also bro I hate the fact I have to run cars with ABS, with no ABS but I do it to bring out the realism out of GT5. Hopefully PD can fix ABS in GT5.Once my league starts I hope you join, you don't have to be committed but if you want to experience GT5 in its realist state PGTR is the right place for you!

 

[JDMKING13]

We have a non ABS room going on XEPEGTP is running it. Come join and have some fun with some clean racing!

 

[Kewbitsa]

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[grog]

The brake bias numbers simply represent how much braking force is applied to ether the front or the back.

In real cars the bias is somewhere around 5-3, typically the front does the majority of the braking. Too much bias in the rear with cause it to slide out under hard braking, lowering the rear value will help prevent the rear from sliding out.

If you really want to gain some understanding for what these values do turn the abs off and try playing with the values.

Ideally you want these settings to allow you to brake without locking up, and avoid losing controll under braking.

 

[Kewbitsa]

.

 

[Enzo_Guy]

Remember tires also make a difference. I used racing soft tires at first as they are stickier and less likely to break traction under hard braking. In a perfect world, you want the maximum amount of brake pressure (at both ends) that you can control on that particular track with the tires you're using. Sounds complicated at first, but you'll quickly get the hang of it.

 

[JDMKING13]

I want to set up a non ABS room, bring your favorite car in stock form we will use PGTR rules. Lets have some fun!

 

[Mac K]

I'm off to try one of the Alfas, looks like fun

 

[JDMKING13]

I have a room open for No ABS come and learn how to get your braking technique better. 1472 6118 4259 7709 9612