garage order

[toke81]

ok...i know this is a ridiculous question, but damnit, i need answers! in the garage, before you sort everything, it's sorted by the order in which the car is driven. but after all the cars you've been in, the ones you've neglected seem ordered randomly. it's not in the order of acquisition, because my delorean, which i've never used outside of arcade mode, is near the middle of the list, and that was the second car i got in the game, after the lupo. any answers?

 

[luftrofl]

Without my PS2 here right now I can't give you the true answer.

But I'd speculate that it's not random, so perhaps based on distance driven, year, or alphabetically, something along those lines would be my guess.

 

[toke81]

Without my PS2 here right now I can't give you the true answer.

But I'd speculate that it's not random, so perhaps based on distance driven, year, or alphabetically, something along those lines would be my guess.

none of the above...

 

[Sum1s2pid]

i had thought there was some sort of order in the garage, but the only way i can look through my cars (950+... is 1,000 the absolute maximum? guess i'll find out soon) is to sort them by "name", "all", the individual manufacturer, the drivetrain, or one of the other handy sorting-tabs in the garage... if i don't, i'm completely lost and can't find a thing... it all seems so haphazardly scattered about otherwise...

 

[luftrofl]

Well maybe it's just random then.

 

[amp88]

I'd take a guess that it's not random. An easy way to find out though would be to go to the garage and note down the last page of cars (i.e. the last few cars which you've never got in to) and then to sort the cars by another parameter (e.g. power, maker) and then to re-sort the cars by the order you got into them (i.e. re-sort them back to the default). Then compare the last page with the page you noted down earlier. However, this might not be all that helpful, since the last sorted list may be prejudiced by the previous sorting choice (i.e. if you chose to sort the cars by power and then re-sorted them by the order you got into them, the cars will first be sorted by the order you got into them and then by power).

 

[ferrari_chris]

Go in and out a few times and see if the order is still the same. If it is, go race, and maybe even restart the console. If the order is still the same, then it's not random, there must be some method behind their madness. If it's different then yes, the order of the unused cars truely is random...

 

[nissan man]

My theory is there is no such thing as "random" in computer games.
random means it would have to think for itself outside of its original programming.

Woah. Geeky moment there but i hope it helped.

 

[amp88]

random means it would have to think for itself outside of its original programming.

Not really. Although it's arguably very difficult to generate genuine random numbers with computers, it's easy to generate numbers which are random enough for an application in something like this.

 

[Dave A]

A random counter in a computer game would be, will you see a 1 or 2 appear on screen, you set the counter a 50% possibility of each appearing and the computer chooses one of them at random. If you set 40% for 1 and 60% for 2 then you will still see a 1 but not as often as a 2, if that makes any sense.

 

[chinko]

it seems to be just placed in an odd order, i never payed much attention to it. all i know was the cars i JUST bought and didnt get into were at the beginning of the undriven cars, but after that the order is skewy

 

[spykerdriver]

When I have 2 or more of the exact same cars(i.e. same power, make, model, weight...) and sort the list by name, thew show up in one order.
Then if I select one then go back to the list screen, they are sometimes in a different order.
It seems random to me.

 

[amp88]

A random counter in a computer game would be, will you see a 1 or 2 appear on screen, you set the counter a 50% possibility of each appearing and the computer chooses one of them at random. If you set 40% for 1 and 60% for 2 then you will still see a 1 but not as often as a 2, if that makes any sense.

If you start weighting the choice then it's not really random at all. Random choices don't really work in computers like this, not to the best of my knowledge anyway.

I'll give an example of how Java would generate "random" numbers.

public class RandomNumbers
{
	public static void main(String[] args)
	{
		for(int i=0; i<10; i++)
		{
			System.out.print((int) (Math.random() * 10)+"	");
		}
	}
}

The only part of this program that's important here is the "Math.random()" function call. What the Math.random() call does is to provide a "random" number between 0 and 1.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Math.html#random()

The program outputs 10 "random" values.

Below the output from a test run of the program is shown:

6 1 3 5 1 8 2 1 8 6

 

[toke81]

whoa didnt mean to bring out the nerds on this one but i guess i brought it on myself. haha...well i took all suggestions and everytime i go back the order is the exact same, but there still seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. i guess i'll have to fly to japan and infiltrate pd headquarters...

 

[amp88]

whoa didnt mean to bring out the nerds on this one but i guess i brought it on myself. haha...

You're certainly not going to like this post then

New version, more complicated this time. The new version does not allow the same number to be used more than once (as the more simple version above did), since the same car can't be randomly placed more than once.

Now, most people who read this post will have at least two questions. The first of which is "Do you really expect me to read all of your post, you nerd?", to which I'd answer "No, I'm only trying to demonstrate a point, no need to read it". The second of which is "What's your point?", to which I'd answer "Not much, just that "random" number generation is just that: "random"". Say you've got a full garage of 1000 cars and the PS2 has to randomly generate an ordering for those, it's going to have to go through some kind of random number generation algorithm. Now, no doubt, the software developers/programmers at PD are infinitely more skilled than I, and my example below is pretty shoddy. However, I doubt they'd get a much better version than mine, especially considering they're running on the PS2's outdated hardware (294.9MHz, IIRC).

So, how long does my program take to randomly generate an ordering for those 1000 numbers then? Well, obviously my algorithm leads to widely variable results, but something of the order of 0.1-0.15 seconds, including outputting all the numbers to screen and the timing information. Paring things down to just the number generation and outputting the time taken for the whole algorithm gives an immeasurably small time (probably between 3 and 10 milliseconds). However, the number of generations of the same numbers is astronomical, averaging about 6000 when it's asked to randomly generate 1000 numbers. Run this program (or one similar to it) on PS2 hardware and it's going to take quite a bit of time.

This is why I believe the ordering isn't random, but is based on something else, possible something not visible to the user.

public class RandomNumbers
{
	public static void main(String[] args)
	{
		/* Capture the current system time (in order to be used later on for
		 * timing purposes */
		double startTime = System.currentTimeMillis();
		
		/* Create an array of booleans to ascertain whether or not a generated
		 * number has already been used or not (note that the array size
		 * specified here is also the quantity of "random" numbers to be
		 * generated */
		boolean[] usedNums = new boolean[1000];
		
		// Declare number to temporarily hold "random" number
		int currentNum;
		
		// For loop, to run until all numbers have been generated
		for(int i=0; i<usedNums.length; i++)
		{
			// If we're NOT generating the last number
			if(!(i == usedNums.length-1))
			{
				// Capture start time of generating THIS number
				double startSingleNum = System.currentTimeMillis();
				
				/* Generate a "random" number between 0 and 1 less
				 * than the length of the usedNums array */ 
				currentNum = (int) ((Math.random() * usedNums.length));
				
				/* If the "random" number just generated has already been
				 * used before, generate another (Note: this will not be true
				 * on the first run of the program */
				while(usedNums[currentNum])
				{
					currentNum = (int) ((Math.random() * usedNums.length));
				}
				
				/* Once a "random" number has been generated which has not
				 * been used before, set the value in the boolean array
				 * usedNumbers to TRUE (i.e. it has now been used */
				usedNums[currentNum] = true;
				
				// Print out to user the new "random" number generated
				System.out.println(currentNum);
				
				// Capture end time of generating THIS number
				double endSingleNum = System.currentTimeMillis();
				
				/* If the number just generated is in the middle of those
				 * to be generated, print out to user how long it took
				 * to generate */
				if(i == (usedNums.length-1)/2)
				{
					System.out.println("Time taken to \"randomise\" number at"+
									   " halfway position: "+(endSingleNum-
									   startSingleNum)+"ms");
				}
				/* Otherwise, if the number just generated is the
				 * penultimate number to be generated, print out to user
				 * how long it took to generate */
				else if(i == usedNums.length-2)
				{
					System.out.println("Time taken to \"randomise\" number at"+
									   " penultimate position: "+(endSingleNum-
									   startSingleNum)+"ms");
				}
			}
			
			// If we're generating the last number
			else
			{
				// Traverse through the usedNums array
				for(int j=0; j<usedNums.length; j++)
				{
					/* If the current value is false (i.e. if it has not been
					 * generated before, it's the last number we're
					 * looking for */
					if(!usedNums[j])
					{
						// Print last number out to user
						System.out.println(j);
					}
				}
			}
		}
		
		/* Capture current system time (after all "random" numbers have
		 * been generated */
		double endTime = System.currentTimeMillis();
		
		/* Print out to user how long it took to generate all the "random"
		 * numbers */
		System.out.println("Time taken to \"randomise\" "+usedNums.length+
						   " numbers: "+(endTime-startTime)+"ms");
	}
}

 

[ferrari_chris]

... well i took all suggestions and everytime i go back the order is the exact same ...

Well, that ends that then.

Not random.

 

[Pupik]

I've always wondered why the "unused" cars keep shuffling around like a deck of cards in the back of the garage line-up. So now I'll do some research into this meaningless matter...

I have 284 cars at the moment, and it's day 1543 in NTSC-land. I have presently "driven" 151 of them, which leaves 133 "unused". Since I'm not going to list every unused car, since it would take too long, I'm just going to focus on the last 4 of the unused pile of cars.

The game defaults to a Right-Hand Sort by [^ Driven]. Sort of useless, but there's no other way to keep the driven cars in a static format. Of course, the question here is that the unused cars keep changing positions, and I'm going to figure out why. Presently, these are the last four unused cars in my garage:

Subaru Impreza '99 Sti Sedan (GC) - yellow - 290ps - 6.2 miles
Honda S2000 Type V '01 - red - 247ps - 6.2 miles
Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86) '83 - red/black - 129ps - 6.2 miles
Honda Civic SiR-II (EG) '95 - silver - 169ps - 6.2 miles

Well, it's certianly not based on make, alphabetical order, color, power, weight, or acquired date. It would seem that the cars a listed in order of mileage, which almost ended this research question early; but this would not turn out to be the case. And the "sort by nationality" criteria can't quite be proven yet, but they're all from Japan.

The first thing I did was view the yellow Impreza. I didn't get "in" the car, but exited back to the garage. Now the Impreza's shifted down one place to the 3rd to last position, it's "spot" was now taken up by another unused car ('98 Celica GT-Four, black, 6.2 miles). The penultimate car is now the S2000, and the last car is the same Trueno AE86.

So where's that silver Civic? I didn't move it! The car changed over four pages back, behind a red Fiat 500F '65 and a green Camaro LM. That "page" had a mix of cars from used cars with high mileage, a few 6.2 mile cars, and some prize cars. (There weren't any "bought-new" cars here, since I usually hop right in a newly bought car.) The pages before and after it were in the same order, ad far as I could tell, without much rhyme or reason for their order, save for the fact they were all unused cars.

Back to our "gang of four" cars at the tail-end, let's see what happens when we check out (but not "drive") the Impreza once more. No change this time to the order of the last four cars. I go back one page, to see a Triumph Spitfire '74 (special color) is last on the page.

I get into the Trueno, just to see what happens to the by [^ Driven] order in the back. Naturally, the bottom cars shifted down the order, and the Triumph has now joined the Celica, Impreza, and S2000. So we can now rule out that the order is not decided by nationality (the Triumph is British) or by mileage (the Triumph has 0.0 miles).

I change to [v Driven], to see that the last four (from the top) are now:

Mazda AZ-1 '92 - red - lots of miles
Lancia Delta HF '91 - blue - lots of miles
Renault Avantime '02 - yellow - 0.0 miles
TVR Speed Six '97 - orange - lots of miles

Changing back to [^ Driven] shows the previous final four cars, with no changes. Changing back once more to [v Driven] changes the order again for the top five unused cars:

Honda Accord Euro-R '00 - grayish blue - lots of miles (first listed unused car)
Mazda AZ-1 '92 - red - lots of miles
Lancia Delta HF '91 - blue - lots of miles
Renault Avantime '02 - yellow - 0.0 miles
TVR Speed Six '97 - orange - lots of miles

So where are the original gang of four? The Triumph can be found at the end of page 9 in the 10th spot, then the Celica in 9th, Impreza 8th, S2000 7th, the mysterious return of the silver '95 Civic in 6th, and the Camaro LM we saw earlier just above that in 5th on same page. But when we pressed the [^ Driven] button again, the last four were the same as just before (Triumph, Celica, Impreza, S2000).

Pressing [^ Acquired Date] shuffled the cars like a deck of cards; the "gang of four" were moved in different places. The order at the bottom was different: the same silver '95 Civic (it moves in mysterious ways), a '69 Isuzu Bellet (gold), '99 Mitsubishi GPX (blue), and a '63 Skyline (metallic tan).

So I viewed the last car ('63 Skyline), but didn't get in it. What do you know? The order reverted back to the original "gang" with the Triumph, Celica, Impreza, and S2000 making up the back once more!

Now I pressed [^ Manufacturer] and then [^ Driven], whcih changed the order completely with the four cars from before getting scattered around in no discernable order. The second group I witnessed were also shuffled.

Pressing various combinations of ordering cars by other criteria showed that when you sort and revert the order of unused cars back and forth, it seems that "clusters" of the cars tend to stay together, retaining whatever previous order you put them, with a few cars completely upsetting the order, and then the previous order reverts.

My guess is that Polyphony intentionally created a shuffling system of the unused cars, so that you don't forget about them. Either that, or the way the PS2 reads the car information form the disk changes things.

If anyone has a clue, backed up with a little evidence...

 

[toke81]

I've always wondered why the "unused" cars keep shuffling around like a deck of cards in the back of the garage line-up. So now I'll do some research into this meaningless matter, etc...

i didn't really read anything you wrote, as i've pretty much relegated myself to the fact that pd hates me and doesn't ever want me to know. but something at the bottom caught my eye. i live in boca raton on the corner of palmetto park and lyons and i work on sections 7-8 of your concept street course there. i think that would be an excellent track if only we had some form of elevation here.

 

[Pupik]

At least you read the important part.

I work on sections 7-8 of your concept street course there. i think that would be an excellent track if only we had some form of elevation here.

That's why the 2nd draw bridge and hirpin are a must for the circuit, try it sometime.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

This little conundrum struck me as well . They don't actually feel random , more offered or suggested as if you driving capability was taken into account by all the stats available and then a shuffle is initiated , using probably a simple enough formula to offer you a good challenge from where you are in game progress . I have'nt checked this though as my GT4 disc was stolen from me along with my GT1,2,3A, concept & prologue discs . All GTAs etc etc 6GB of burnt software etc etc gripe moan . when service is resumed , mebbe someone @ 100% with 3 or so unused vehicles could give you a clearer picture.

 

[toke81]

At least you read the important part.



That's why the 2nd draw bridge and hirpin are a must for the circuit, try it sometime.

it would be pretty awesome if you lengthened the track to make it go on i-95 from palmetto park, but then again, that's just a really long straight, which is already present on a1a. actually, just stretch it out down palmetto about 5 miles and make it go by my house.

 

[alech]

This is still something about "garage order" , so here it goes :
I noticed that the option to sort cars by price does NOT work !
The most expensive ones will appear at the top of the list , let's say in the first page , but not in an exact order and the same happens to the following ones .

Did you notice this ? Is it a "random" order or not ?

 

[un_peacekeeper]

This is still something about "garage order" , so here it goes :
I noticed that the option to sort cars by price does NOT work !
The most expensive ones will appear at the top of the list , let's say in the first page , but not in an exact order and the same happens to the following ones .

Did you notice this ? Is it a "random" order or not ?

it's just screwed up

 

[AlfaAlfa]

it's just screwed up

That might be about as precise an answer as we're going to find on this one eh?


Here's a quote from another thread that brings up the same questions:

incidentally, has anyone worked out how to keep cars in order (once sorted by name) so you can look at the colour of one, then come back out and have them in the same order. when i do this on my f1s (still unsure how many diff colours i have), i go into one car to see the colour scheme, then come out and the order of the rest of them has changed.