Gasoline vs. Diesel

[Victor Vance]

With gasoline prices already past the $2.25 mark in some states, I thought now would be a great time to debate: Gasoline vs. Diesel


Gasoline Pros:
-Cheap to Repair
-Overall Higher Performance
-Outnumbers Diesel about 300 to 1

Gasoline Cons:
Low Fuel Mileage
Not As Reliable
Fuel Price is Higher

Diesel Pros:
Better torque
Excellent reliability
Fuel efficient and low fuel prices

Diesel Cons:
You can only get it on 3 cars, the Volkswagen Jetta TDi, Volkswagen Golf TDi and Volkswagen Beetle TDi
When something does break, it costs big money to fix
Not exactly emissions friendly (which is why there are so few)


Fire Away!

 

[emad]

I think Mercedes is planning on rolling some diesel cars stateside so it's definately going to come in big sooner or later. Also, Canada is getting the Smart cars for the 2005 production year. They're also diesel powered (even though they have under 100hp).

Honestly, if it came down to an everyday driver, I probably wouldn't mind a diesel engine at all. They're better on the gas and in addition to that, emmissions are getting a lot better for the suckers.

 

[Driftster]

Well I just read "everyday car".......So I voted AFV.......Very cheap, low polutant, good mileage....Seems about right for "everyday"

 

[emad]

I'd like to see some companies start working on diesel hybrids 👍.

 

[Ottoman]

in europe there are sooo many diesels... everywhere...

X5 3.0d
merc S270 CDI
even honda has developed a diesel engine....
and AMG has released a high performance Diesel Sports car

the mileage of a diesel is SOOO much more the gas... and the engine has so much grunt and pullin power... i rode in an X5 3.0d and i thought it was a 4.4!

the luxurious diesel cars are really quiet now too... after the engine warms up u can hardly even hear that it's a diesel... no more of that rough idlin that sounds like a V8 with huge cam lobes

diesel has come a reaaly long way on this side of the pond...in the states it has a bad rep tho as if driving a diesel makes u a lesser of a man or something :rolleyes

Turbo Diesel all the way in my opinion!


*edit* forgot to add.. u can even run a Diesel engine off of Corn oil and stuff... just such a robust engine... 👍

 

[Flerbizky]

98% of all cabs here in Copenhagen are Benz Diesels. I've been in plenty, and if you didn't know it, you'd think they're your regular gasoline powered. Last time we rode in one home from a concert, the driver ticked upwards of 190km/h with the engine humming at 3500 (or so) rpm....

Our next car will def. be a diesel. When driving to france, at the hills of Kassel in germany, even the 1.9 TDI VAG cars continue with 160+ km/h... Not to mention the speed the bigger Benz's and BMW's do... Scary...

 

[fast1]

People in US have no idea how much diesel engines have improved over last 5 years. Experts in european car magazines say that diesel engines now are on a higher stage of development than current gasoline engines.

My family has a Volvo S80 D5, it's a 2.5l turbo diesel engine with 163hp and in average it only consumes 6.5l / 100km. And until I tell them, my friends think it's 200+hp engine.

All manufacturers know that you can't really sell a car in europe if you don't have a good diesel engine. For example, Mercedes E class has 5 diesels: 200 CDI, 220 CDI, 270 CDI, 320 CDI, 400 CDI. Even Chrysler 300 is going to get a new 3.0 diesel engine (made by mercedes) that will also be available in E class.

 

[Duke]

I've been to Europe in the last 5 years and seen "modern" diesel engines. They have improved in power, yes. They have gotten quieter and smoother, some. But they still stink like crap and burn my eyes everytime they drive by. I will never own a diesel unless I suddenly need to start towing a 10,000-lb racecar trailer across the country. And if I'm rich enough to be able to do that, I probably won't give a crap about fuel economy anyway, so I'll just get a gasoline-burning Ram V10.

 

[fast1]

It's a fact that diesel engines have the best power efficiency out of all internal-combustion engines. And if we are talking about an everyday car I don't see why would anyone prefer gasoline. Apart from subjective reasons. Even if we compare performance, you will se that on the road turbo diesel will actually outrun any gasoline powered engine with the same HP.

If someone would give me two engines with the same power, but one has 30% better fuel economy and more than 50% greater torque, I know which one I would choose.

 

[TheCracker]

For those americans here on the boards who won't have experienced it yet, VW do a 5ltr V10, twin turbo diesel engine - 230 kW / 313 bhp + 750 Newtonmetres of torque. but will still do 24+mpg!!!

 

[Apclps]

They both have their pros and cons, but I prefer diesel 👍

60 % of the cars on the road in Belgium are Diesel (I'm guessing that this number is about the same in the neighbouring countries). Diesel is simply cheaper and more fuel efficient. A diesel engine is just not what it used to be. Diesel engines are also more forgiving when driving, they don't stall as easy as a petrol engine.

 

[Victor Vance]

I'm well aware of diesel development. A '88 Mercedes TurboDiesel is nothing like a Beetle TDi. Problem is us Americans think that when a diesel car accelerates, it makes big clouds of high-sulfur-diesel-fueled smoke like big, 18-wheeled aging Peterbilts do, when, in fact once you drive one, the only thing you notice is the slight underhood clatter. America has been brainwashed by trains, big-rigs and of course all of those loud, noisy Power Stroke V-8 Diesels that power Excursions, F-2 and 350's and Ecolnoline 250 and 350's, and the Cummins motor that has powered Ram 350's and Ram Wagon 350's. Out neighbor has an older Passat TDi, and a Beetle enthusiast (and I mean enthusiast, she has 5 Beetles spanning the car's entire life cycle, including a 1954 and a 2003 Mexican-market import model) that lives close by has a Beetle TDi, that VW diesel is by no means a bad car.

I think once we get the higher-grade diesel that you Euro folk does in 2006, Americans will change their opinions on diesel. Hopefully... BTW The Dodge Sprinter is a marvel of diesel technology, 30 mpg for a box van where an E-350 V10 can hardly top 15...

 

[fast1]

Most diesel engines are more advanced than VWs TDI engines. VW doesn't use common rail which is the biggest improvement in the last few years (it lowers engine noise and reduces exhaust emissions).

 

[Victor Vance]

Uhh... why not? I guess it's a matter of, 'hey, we rule the market, so there's no need to be the best'

 

[Famine]

It's a fact that diesel engines have the best power efficiency out of all internal-combustion engines. And if we are talking about an everyday car I don't see why would anyone prefer gasoline. Apart from subjective reasons. Even if we compare performance, you will se that on the road turbo diesel will actually outrun any gasoline powered engine with the same HP.

If someone would give me two engines with the same power, but one has 30% better fuel economy and more than 50% greater torque, I know which one I would choose.

Indeed - but you aren't comparing like with like. You're comparing a naturally aspirated petrol engine with a turbocharged diesel.

Similarly, a turbodiesel won't "outrun" a petrol engine with the same power, because the diesel has to change up a gear. Typical diesel redline is 4500rpm. My dad had a diesel Focus (1.8 TDCi, 118hp, 220lbft) which kept up with my more powerful MX-3 (1.8i V6), 137hp, 123lbft) under acceleration. For 3 seconds. Then he had to change gear.


The biggest disadvantage of diesels has not yet been mentioned.

Diesel combustion is the only known source of 3-nitrobenzathone, one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man (last I checked it was in the top 3).

In the UK, diesel prices are higher at the pump too. And if you think $2.25 is bad for petrol, try the $5.50 per US gallon that we pay.

 

[Ottoman]

Indeed - but you aren't comparing like with like. You're comparing a naturally aspirated petrol engine with a turbocharged diesel.

Similarly, a turbodiesel won't "outrun" a petrol engine with the same power, because the diesel has to change up a gear. Typical diesel redline is 4500rpm. My dad had a diesel Focus (1.8 TDCi, 118hp, 220lbft) which kept up with my more powerful MX-3 (1.8i V6), 137hp, 123lbft) under acceleration. For 3 seconds. Then he had to change gear.


The biggest disadvantage of diesels has not yet been mentioned.

Diesel combustion is the only known source of 3-nitrobenzathone, one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man (last I checked it was in the top 3).

In the UK, diesel prices are higher at the pump too. And if you think $2.25 is bad for petrol, try the $5.50 per US gallon that we pay.

as for shifting gears... if u're a good driver u can shift very quickly.. and if the engine stays in the power band u're ok.. plus if the diesel shifts at 4.500 u'll be shifting at 6-6,500 anyway.. and he wont be shifting cuz he'll still be in 2nd.. so if u're a good shifter it wont really matter...

and everything these days seems to cause cancer anyway

 

[TsLeng]

Indeed - but you aren't comparing like with like. You're comparing a naturally aspirated petrol engine with a turbocharged diesel.

Similarly, a turbodiesel won't "outrun" a petrol engine with the same power, because the diesel has to change up a gear. Typical diesel redline is 4500rpm. My dad had a diesel Focus (1.8 TDCi, 118hp, 220lbft) which kept up with my more powerful MX-3 (1.8i V6), 137hp, 123lbft) under acceleration. For 3 seconds. Then he had to change gear.


The biggest disadvantage of diesels has not yet been mentioned.

Diesel combustion is the only known source of 3-nitrobenzathone, one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man (last I checked it was in the top 3).

In the UK, diesel prices are higher at the pump too. And if you think $2.25 is bad for petrol, try the $5.50 per US gallon that we pay.

But it ain't fair!!!!


118hp vs 137hp........not fair.....!! Try comparing the same hp, eg 120 vs120 but the diesel will definately get more torque so will outrun the petrol especially on uphills and will be less affected by extra weight.

And God.......diesel costs so much in UK?
It costs US0.20 per litre here buts its of low quality.

 

[fast1]

Uhh... why not? I guess it's a matter of, 'hey, we rule the market, so there's no need to be the best'

They are using "pumpe duse" technology, and it's only the VAG group that is using it. When compared with common-rail, the biggest advantage is higher injection pressure (up to 2050 bars compared with around 1600 bar for the best common rail systems), which translates into more torque.

Similarly, a turbodiesel won't "outrun" a petrol engine with the same power, because the diesel has to change up a gear. Typical diesel redline is 4500rpm. My dad had a diesel Focus (1.8 TDCi, 118hp, 220lbft) which kept up with my more powerful MX-3 (1.8i V6), 137hp, 123lbft) under acceleration. For 3 seconds. Then he had to change gear.

It won't? So, in your world "same power" means 1108kg (2443 lbs) 137hp car vs 1300kg 115hp (it is actually 115)? Good example.

Actually, if you compare 1.8l gasoline and diesel ford focus, they both have 115hp, but diesel has 207lbft while gasoline version has 116lbft. Diesel version gets from 50 to 70mph in 8.5sec, while gasoline needs 12.7sec.

 

[1X83Z]

Diesel Cons:
You can only get it on 3 cars, the Volkswagen Jetta TDi, Volkswagen Golf TDi and Volkswagen Beetle TDi

I'm proud to announce that the diesel market is tripling! Good news for human beings, bad news for Sierra Club assholes (then again, isn't that redundant?). By the end of 2004, we'll have, in addition to those you mentioned:

- Volkswagen Passat TDI (134bhp 2.0L 4-cylinder; 247lb-ft @ 1800RPM)
- Volkswagen Touareg TDI (310bhp 4.9L V10; 553lb-ft @ 2000RPM; 20mpg)
- Mercedes E320 CDI (201bhp 3.2L 6-cylinder; 369lb-ft @ 1800RPM; 32mpg)

I guess that means Volkswagen loses 100% market share.

To answer the question - I've advocated diesels for many years, but in the last few months I've began to change my tone. It seems to me that the sole advantage to diesel is better fuel economy - otherwise you have to put up with less power, a higher base price, and, above all, more (toxic) pollution. The state of California banned diesel emissions in the late 1980s, a move that sent Mercedes diesels, whose largest market was California, out of the US until now. Vermont, New York, Massachusetts, and Maine have recently adopted California's emissions standards, meaning most diesel cars can't be sold in any of those states. Until diesel cleans up, I'm done advocating diesel.

 

[Firebird]

Diesel combustion is the only known source of 3-nitrobenzathone, one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man (last I checked it was in the top 3).

3-nitrobenzanthrone is, according to many scientists, THE most carcinogenic compound ever discovered.

There's still some debate over it though. As far as I know most of the tests have been isolated to specimens of salmonella and mice blood cells.

Still, the output of 3-nitrobenzanthrone is very small. A few ppm at most.

The worst part of 3-nitrobenzanthrone in my opinion is the fact that nitrogen monoxide and ozone are necessary for the creation of it. This means that areas that already have high pollution lend themselves to making a proportionally larger amount of 3-nitrobenzanthrone than areas with lower pollution. You go out into the countryside and it means **** all, but in cities it compounds the existing problems.

Besides 3-nitrobenzanthrone, diesel combustion also produces 1,8-dinitropyrene and 1,6-dinitropyrene, which are numbers two and three in most carcinogenic compounds according to the Ames carcinogenity test. Both cause breast cancer quite easily.

Not to mention the amount of nitrogen and sulphur oxides North American diesel produces. A lot of North America's acid rain problems are due to diesel emissions such as sulphur and nitrogen oxides. At least by 2006 we'll have near-sulphurless diesel, which will not only help out as far as emissions go, but will also get rid of that god-awful stink diesel engines are known for.

 

[Victor Vance]

Indeed - but you aren't comparing like with like. You're comparing a naturally aspirated petrol engine with a turbocharged diesel.

Similarly, a turbodiesel won't "outrun" a petrol engine with the same power, because the diesel has to change up a gear. Typical diesel redline is 4500rpm. My dad had a diesel Focus (1.8 TDCi, 118hp, 220lbft) which kept up with my more powerful MX-3 (1.8i V6), 137hp, 123lbft) under acceleration. For 3 seconds. Then he had to change gear.


The biggest disadvantage of diesels has not yet been mentioned.

Diesel combustion is the only known source of 3-nitrobenzathone, one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man (last I checked it was in the top 3).

In the UK, diesel prices are higher at the pump too. And if you think $2.25 is bad for petrol, try the $5.50 per US gallon that we pay.

5 Dollars, jesus! You can buy 100-Octane Sunoco Racing Fuel for 5 dollars around here!

 

[Freddie]

Modern diesels have come a very long way not only on the power front but on the emissions front too. Here in Europe, particle-filters for diesels engines are becoming the norm, for reducing emissions. The main goal for the filters is to reduce particles and other emissions that can cause cancer. When it comes to carbondioxyde, diesels are already far ahead of petrols.

When it comes to power, the '04 Volvo S40 2.0D I'm driving at driving school, has alot more than I expected. Sure enough, the car is responseless and dull in first and second gear, but once you hit third, it flies. Some weeks ago, I had to drive past a large lorry which had entered the road in front of me. Because of the lorry's slow accel and our (me and my instructor) lack of time, I floored it in 4th gear, starting at rougly 1500rpm. The acceleration was mildly put impressive, and the engine note was nice too.

Another advantage to diesels (as a result of the power advantage over petrols) is that one doesn't have to change gears, like I described above, to drive past slower vehicles. There is always power on tap (well, at least in most of the revs).

 

[Mike Rotch]

In my book, diesels are good for the following types of motorised transportation:

• Tractors
• Serious off-road pickups
• Trucks

I laugh whenever I see a BMW 530d emitting black smoke when pullling away from a set of lights. Or listening to a Mercedes 270d C-Class idling with the subtly of a Massy-Ferguson.

Tree huggers can have their "efficiency". They can also have the more expensive and regular services.

 

[TsLeng]

They have more expensive service but not more regularly than petrol engines.

 

[Mike Rotch]

They have more expensive service but not more regularly than petrol engines.

Depending on the quality of the diesel (not an issue for petrol cars), the recommended service interval is 10000km, ranging to 15000km. I dont think there is a modern (equivalent) petrol vehicle with a recommended interval of less then 15000km.

 

[Famine]

Actually, if you compare 1.8l gasoline and diesel ford focus, they both have 115hp, but diesel has 207lbft while gasoline version has 116lbft

And the diesel version has a turbocharger.

You're still comparing a turbodiesel to an NA petrol. I wasn't comparing same-powered cars, but similarly-accelerating ones. In gear the turbodiesel Focus kept up with the NA petrol MX-3 precisely because it has 75% more torque, but as soon as he shifted up he lost the advantage - I had 3000rpm left still.

(and you quoted the wrong person)

Ottoman - my dad is a very good driver, and former amateur rally driver. We weren't racing, because that's silly (we certainly didn't break the speed limit), but he was trying to keep up as he didn't know the way. I was merely getting up to road speed.

Everyone else - Average pump price is 82.9p for 95 RON unleaded, 84.9p for 98 RON Super Unleaded and 85.9p for diesel per litre. That works out at £4 ($7.1) per Imperial gallon - the US gallon is smaller.