Gearing, ratios and car speed

[Gilly]

Hi everyone,

Well like the rest of you I've been enjoying Prologue for a while now and will have to visit GTP alot more for help and info, but as you know you go from one game to the next and old favourite's get shunned for a while for no real reason. Anyway.

I've trawled through quite a few pages, and appologies if this is something that has been covered but I was wondering if someone could enlighten me as to why as the topic says the gear ratios of every car are so unlike their real life counterparts? Playing TT events in a certain car is almost painfull as you cannot adjust anything and the gearing is far too long with top gears in the cars being way over the top so each car in question does not have the acceleration punch it should, but according to the ratio values they are the same as RL but there is no way yop gears in cars should be deffault to over 250 or 300 mph.

I know in arcade you can shorten these gears in the quick tune but then the gear speeds are still wrong compared to the RL car.

Any thoughts or helpfull insight much appreciated, Thankyou.

 

[the Interceptor]

I only know of the F40 having an extremely long gearbox and the Corvette having a fuel-saving long 6th gear. Otherwise, I can't say I ever noticed any car having a too long gearbox.

 

[daan]

but according to the ratio values they are the same as RL but there is no way yop gears in cars should be deffault to over 250 or 300 mph.

I know in arcade you can shorten these gears in the quick tune but then the gear speeds are still wrong compared to the RL car.

As far as I know most, if not all, of the gear ratios are correct.

The Z06 for example has an inter-stellar 6th gear in real life, and in the game. I believe that it's there to increase the fuel economy so that it doesn't get taxed more, or something. (A US member will be able to give more info on that one.) As it is, without adjusting it, it is pretty useless in a racing game, but it is accurate.

 

[Stotty]

I'm not sure they are that far off the real ratios if at all. A lot of cars today have VERY long top gears for a couple of reasons - 1) it allows for better fuel consumption on motorways and 2) it helps reduce C02 emissions.

 

[sesselpupser]

Did you see the Top Gear (rig-fest) test between the Prius and M3? The one that concluded the M3 is more economical than the Prius (if not, it was basically a race where the Prius was driving as fast as possible, and the M3 just had to keep up)? That's because the Prius was being driven to the limit, where the M3 was easily keeping up without even trying. When a car is being revved to the redline before changing gear, it uses more petrol. By having a top gear ratio of 200+mph, a car can do 70mph or whatever motorway speed at rediculously low RPMs, which makes it more economical.

It's useless for the track but that's what real cars are like, and GT features real cars which you have to tune to be more suited for the tracks you're racing on... And by reducing the top ratio to the track's top speed, you'll find the acceleration is improved by an FIA-approved 1,000,000%...

And the lack of adjustability on TT events is for fairness, though I'm sure I didn't need to point that out.

My last point:
PD spend years over each game, trying to perfect them. People still nitpick minor details, like the sounds of the tyre squeal or (shock horror) the lack of tyre tracks, but the car gearings is a pretty damn big nit to pick so you'd think some of that development time was spent getting it right.

 

[the Interceptor]

Exclusively and solely for you, Gilly, I made a comparison test with a random car: the Mini Cooper S. I compared the gearshift speeds from this video...



... to the gearshift speeds in the game. The results:

gear ---- game ---- real life
1.-2. --- 61 km/h --- 70 km/h
2.-3. -- 104 km/h -- 112 km/h
3.-4. -- 143 km/h -- 149 km/h
4.-5. -- 175 km/h -- 183 km/h
5.-6. -- 211 km/h -- 205 km/h (early shift)

If anything, the car is even geared shorter in the game.

P.S.: to anyone who loves cars: don't watch the video, as the driver seriously fries the clutch in 1st.

 

[homeforsummer]

but according to the ratio values they are the same as RL but there is no way yop gears in cars should be deffault to over 250 or 300 mph.

You'd be surprised. I drive a Ford Fiesta with a quoted top speed of 96mph, yet I read somwhere that the Fiesta is geared for nearer 140mph. I also know that the Alfa 159 2.4 TD has a top speed of around 140mph, but it's actually geared for about 185. Top gears are often very high, as other people have pointed out, for economy at higher speeds.

 

[Catlin]

Besides,the gearing is not necessarily going to make it to top speed,the cars hp wont let it.It will just run until what it can.

 

[zodicus]

also keep in mind that a the power band of the car will greatly effect how its geared. if the car makes peak power at say 6000 but has a redlined of 7000 you would want to hit top speed at 6000 not 7000 so the final gear witch ever it be 5th or 6th would be geared to mathematically hit a much higher speed then the car could actually attain.

 

[Gilly]

o.k. These values are from default car settings in the game and I have selected 3 cars to highlight what I'm getting at. Some cars are closer to how I expect them to be based on Real Life, others are simply so far off it's not even funny for a game that boasts the title the real driving simulator.

Subaru Impreza Sedan WRX STI spec C Type RA '05

Game
1st - 42 mph
2nd - 65 mph
3rd - 88 mph
4th - 114 mph
5th - 145 mph
6th - 194 mph

I haven't got real life comparison for gears and mph (maybe someone has a good site to find this out?) but the top speed for this car is 155/160 mph at which point you should be running into the limiter in 6th gear. This model of car is not going to do 194 mph, would it even do 145 mph in 5th before changing to 6th? I'm not too sure as I have an 04 plate WRX with PPP and 5 gears and have been in a m8's STI PPP with 6 gears to know those figures look totally wack.

Take it for a spin on the straight at Fuji which should be more than enough to top out a standard Subaru but the engine is dead and still isn't running into the limiter in 5th before I'm running into the wall. This is the issue.

Skyline GT-R V-spec II Nur '02

Game:

1st - 45 mph
2nd - 73 mph
3rd - 103 mph
4th - 131 mph
5th - 172 mph
6th - 231 mph

Corvette Z06 '06

Game:

1st - 61 mph
2nd - 91 mph
3rd - 125 mph
4th - 162 mph
5th - 219 mph
6th - 348 mph

Like I said there are cars that are closer but there are so many that are not and surely among the car owners and experts out there you can see those figures just don't make sense and this is like I say responsible for killin th etrue potential of alot of the cars in the game WHY?

I'm not deliberatly bashing for no reason or looking for an argument I'm just looking for a straight answer.

 

[RedSuinit]

o.k. These values are from default car settings in the game and I have selected 3 cars to highlight what I'm getting at. Some cars are closer to how I expect them to be based on Real Life, others are simply so far off it's not even funny for a game that boasts the title the real driving simulator.

Subaru Impreza Sedan WRX STI spec C Type RA '05

Game
1st - 42 mph
2nd - 65 mph
3rd - 88 mph
4th - 114 mph
5th - 145 mph
6th - 194 mph

I haven't got real life comparison for gears and mph (maybe someone has a good site to find this out?) but the top speed for this car is 155/160 mph at which point you should be running into the limiter in 6th gear. This model of car is not going to do 194 mph, would it even do 145 mph in 5th before changing to 6th? I'm not too sure as I have an 04 plate WRX with PPP and 5 gears and have been in a m8's STI PPP with 6 gears to know those figures look totally wack.

Take it for a spin on the straight at Fuji which should be more than enough to top out a standard Subaru but the engine is dead and still isn't running into the limiter in 5th before I'm running into the wall. This is the issue.

Skyline GT-R V-spec II Nur '02

Game:

1st - 45 mph
2nd - 73 mph
3rd - 103 mph
4th - 131 mph
5th - 172 mph
6th - 231 mph

Corvette Z06 '06

Game:

1st - 61 mph
2nd - 91 mph
3rd - 125 mph
4th - 162 mph
5th - 219 mph
6th - 348 mph

Like I said there are cars that are closer but there are so many that are not and surely among the car owners and experts out there you can see those figures just don't make sense and this is like I say responsible for killin th etrue potential of alot of the cars in the game WHY?

I'm not deliberatly bashing for no reason or looking for an argument I'm just looking for a straight answer.

The reason why is because we as a fanbase for so long have desired REALITY, and as close as we can get to it. Every single car has been studied, and the gear ratios they got straight from the factory, to make it more REAL. That's why they gave us... Quick Tune! So that we can take these cars and fix the ratios to be better suited for the track we are desiring to drive. Good touch with adding that you aren't trying to start an argument, and that your not bashing the game. That's a good way to keep opinions opinions and keep people from getting offended. +rep in my book 👍

Luke

 

[Bleached]

I'm no STi expert, but I highly doubt the STi's top speed in real life is at the redline in 6th gear. Those gearings show the top speed at the end of that gear, but the car will be drag-limited before it hits the redline in 6th.

 

[the Interceptor]

I'll try to find out the real life shift speeds for the cars you posted, to have a comparison to the game.

(...)

the top speed for this car is 155/160 mph at which point you should be running into the limiter in 6th gear.

(...)

A lot of cars in real life are not geared to reach their top speed just before the rev limiter in top gear. Cars usually are geared longer than that. The reasons are simple and have already been stated: better fuel economy and more comfortable driving. The Suzuki Swift Sport springs to mind here, which is quite quick with his 125 hp engine. It reaches just above 200 km/h at the end of it's final (5th) gear, which is the top speed. However, people say that you won't be able to maintain this speed for too long, because the engine will kill your ears. Also, what happens when you go downhill?

Now I'm not saying that a proper gearing that just covers all speeds from zero to max speed isn't the right idea for racing. For the real world however, cars will most likely be geared longer for the above reasons.

 

[Gilly]

Good touch with adding that you aren't trying to start an argument, and that your not bashing the game. That's a good way to keep opinions opinions and keep people from getting offended. +rep in my book 👍

Luke

Thanks Luke and Interceptor, I appreciateyour views and help, and like I said before it seems like a good GT community here so I'd like to fit in and enjoy becoming a regular vistor:tup:

I know my first thread may seem deliberatly negative (it's not meant), truth be told I've been a fan of GT since PS One and have had every game and played them all to death with great enjoyment, but like skid marks it's always been one of those splinter issues with me I'd love to see tweaked so alot more cars are closer to RL versions anlong with bringing the GT brand upto date with things that are long overdue, like damage, night races, wet races (maybe interchangabe weather for longer races ala the British GP (get in there Hamiltion

It was getting late last night when I loaded the game up to check those 3 cars so I will have to check what I own in the garage and post up ones which seem almost right, the GTR 07 and TV Tamora seem very close at a glance in gears and speed, but damn it's hard to find a site that lists the RL gear ratio and speed info I'm looking for.

GTR 07
Real life-------------Game:

1st - 39 mph--------1st - 39 mph
2nd - 68 mph--------2nd - 68 mph
3rd - 98 mph--------3rd - 98 mph
4th - 126 mph-------4th - 26 mph
5th - 147 mph-------5th - 157 mph
6th - 197 mph-------6th - 211 mhp

Like I said it's not all cars, take a look at Godzilla here, it's almost spot on apart from a 10 mph drift in 5th gear, and even though this is close in relation to what I'm saying would a RL GTR be able to eek out another 10mph before hitting the engine limiter in 5th gear?

Thanks again for any helpfull contributions, discussions on this and I'll dig a little deeper on some other cars

 

[Scaff]

A couple of sites that should help you

Carfolio - Good source of data for cars - easy to search and one of the few sites that actually bother to correct/update figures. However they do not list everything and here google is your friend.

Gear/MPH Calculator - Use this to calculate MPH figures from vehicle data, while the calculator does say redline, you can actually use it for any engine speed. The most common one to use is 1,000rpm, as this then allows you to calculate mph per 1,000rpm for each gear.

Keep in mind that all calculation taken from pure gearing figures do not take into account the effects of drag, as such they will be very accurate at lower speeds, but once past 100 - 110 mph (depending on how 'slippy' the car is) drag will start to reduce these figures and then stop them altogether.

As said it not unusual for top gears in a car to be 'economy' gears and be impossible to red-line the car in that gear, for some cars the true top speed can't even be reached in top gear. This is often true of cars with a six speed box, the 6th gear is set-up as a cruising gear and the 'true' top gear for v-max is then 5th.

While it does not cover gearing as a topic specifically, this post does show these calculations in action.

Also watch out for 4WD cars, as MPH/Gear calculation are taken using the size of the driven wheels, fine if a 4WD car has the same size tyres front and rear, but a real pain if the differ (as in the Nissan GT-R).

I have to add however that with a small number of known problem cars, they figures have always been very accurate in the GT series. You just have to remember that at higher speed drag starts to play a large role in this and will reduce 'real' world figures down from the theoretical calculated MPG/Gear speeds.

Regards

Scaff

 

[bergauk]

The reason behind not having the cars gearing perfect. Simple. Its Prologue. It's not going to absolutely perfect. They got some bugs to work out on it. I'm sure by the time the finished product is done they should have it all ironed out.


Thats about all the insight I have on this.

I'm sure PD is working their very best to make sure the game pleases everyone in some way or another.

 

[Gilly]

As promised I've just been looking into some of the other cars in my garage to see how much some of the cars vary in terms of the issue I'm highlighting.

I know and understand what others are saying in terms of final gear and fuel economy but even figures for the previous gear just seem wrong. Anyway take a look at the default gear speeds for these cars and if anyone can find RL figures for these cars or know down to ownership of the real car then they are in the best position to judge.

Honda Integra TYPE R '04
Game:

1st - 39 mph
2nd - 60 mph
3rd - 85 mph
4th - 106 mph
5th - 132 mph
6th - 177 mph

The Integra seems accurate enough apart from the high 6th gear. I've got a vid of a similar Integra at 8000 RPM 6th gear just on the red line at 260 kmh (160 mph ish) how is this car geared for 177 mph? it can't be possible.

Volkswagen Golf V GTI '05
Game:

1st - 39 mph
2nd - 62 mph
3rd - 86 mph
4th - 118 mph
5th - 150 mph
6th - 194 mph

118 mph in 4th gear for the GTI seems ambitious, I don't think my 270 BHP WRX does that, so those figures say 6th gear will not improve acceleration 1 iota as the car is pegged at 150 mph. I'm pretty sure a GTI still pulls in 6th gear.

Ford Focus ST '06
Game:

1st - 37 mph
2nd - 61 mph
3rd - 87 mph
4th - 114 mph
5th - 144 mph
6th - 186 mph

Focus seems o.k to a point between 4th/5th but again 144 mph in 5th hmmm.

Audi TT Coupe 3.2 quattro '07
Game:

1st - 35 mph
2nd - 57 mph
3rd - 81 mph
4th - 109 mph
5th - 139 mph
6th - 193 mph

Iffy again

BMW 135i Coupe '07
Game:

1st - 41 mph
2nd - 70 mph
3rd - 106 mph
4th - 140 mph
5th - 167 mph
6th - 206 mph

Seems to be a problem with the 135i gearing at a glance (nice car in RL btw)

Nissan Fairlady Z Version S '07
Game:

1st - 44 mph
2nd - 72 mph
3rd - 103 mph
4th - 132 mph
5th - 168 mph
6th - 226 mph

Again, 168 mph in 5th?
Subaru Impreza WRX STI (18inch BBS Wheel Option) '07
Game:

1st - 43 mph
2nd - 66 mph
3rd - 89 mph
4th - 116 mph
5th - 147 mph
6th - 198 mph

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR '05
Game:

1st - 39 mph
2nd - 59 mph
3rd - 80 mph
4th - 104 mph
5th - 132 mph
6th - 178 mph

The geraing for the Evo doesn't look to broken but an excessive top gear.

Honda NSX Type R '02
Game:

1st - 45 mph
2nd - 71 mph
3rd - 98 mph
4th - 125 mph
5th - 153 mph
6th - 221 mph

Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
Game:

1st - 37 mph
2nd - 64 mph
3rd - 93 mph
4th - 130 mph
5th - 181 mph

Like the Evo, the RX7 just looks right at a glance asside from the long th gear.

TVR Tamora '02
Game:

1st - 40 mph
2nd - 51 mph
3rd - 77 mph
4th - 112 mph
5th - 168 mph

The Tamora must be close to proper figures and like the other cars that seem less effected it pulls hard like it should.

TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00

1st - 50 mph
2nd - 76 mph
3rd - 111 mph
4th - 149 mph
5th - 199 mph

The Tuscan on the other hand may be off.

Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
Game:

1st - 42 mph
2nd - 68 mph
3rd - 98 mph
4th - 131 mph
5th - 164 mph
6th - 204 mph

Ferrari F430 '06
Game:

1st - 46 mph
2nd - 70 mph
3rd - 94 mph
4th - 120 mph
5th - 148 mph
6th - 197 mph

Like the GTR, Tamora etc the 430 looks bang on, and notice how it's top gear is also exact not a silly number.

Ferrari 599 '06
Game:

1st - 53 mph
2nd - 78 mph
3rd - 108 mph
4th - 142 mph
5th - 180 mph
6th - 233 mph

Ferrari F40 '92
Game:

1st - 75 mph
2nd - 122 mph
3rd - 170 mph
4th - 218 mph
5th - 279 mph

The F40 can't be right, right?

I'll try and dig up some real life figures to match but feel free to help out and like Catchphrase say what you see.

:edit:

Thanks for the info Scaff, I'll look into those to see what I can find.

I can see what your saying with regards to top gears being almost redundant due to crusing speed/emissions thing but I've driven a good few 6th gear cars say and they still pull as hard as in the previous gear and run close to their top speed with not alot of revs left.

 

[Scaff]

Ferrari F40 '92
Game:

1st - 75 mph
2nd - 122 mph
3rd - 170 mph
4th - 218 mph
5th - 279 mph

The F40 can't be right, right?

I'll try and dig up some real life figures to match but feel free to help out and like Catchphrase say what you see.

I've just put the F40's spec into the MPH, gear calculator and to be honest (within a reasonable margin of error) they are very close to what you have posted.

I'm going to quote MPH per 1,000rpm, because to be honest its a much more usable figure, as it allow the car to be tested in any gear and at a set RPM.

The F40, based on its spec should give...

1st - 10 mph per 1,000rpm
2nd -16 mph per 1,000rpm
3rd - 22 mph per 1,000rpm
4th - 28 mph per 1,000rpm
5th - 35 mph per 1,000rpm

with a red-line of around 7,800rpm we would get


1st - 76 mph
2nd -123 mph
3rd - 171 mph
4th - 219 mph
5th - 273 mph

Now you have to take a margin for error into account here (as I know only to well how hard it is to read the exact speed in GT), but they are certainly close enough.

Thanks for the info Scaff, I'll look into those to see what I can find.

I can see what your saying with regards to top gears being almost redundant due to crusing speed/emissions thing but I've driven a good few 6th gear cars say and they still pull as hard as in the previous gear and run close to their top speed with not alot of revs left.

Of course you will see most cars get close to the speed limit with only a small amount of RPM remaining, engine speed is a direct indication of how hard the engine is working. You are seeing the effects of drag on the cars performance, if aero drag was removed from this then the engine would be able to achieve its theoretical top speed for each and every gear. However as drag increases as speed does (actually drag increases with the square of speed), the faster you go the more of an engines work is done overcoming drag alone.

Gearing calculations give you your theoretical top speed (in each gear), however a car actual top speed is limited by its power (in BHP), drag co-efficient, frontal area size and the density of air.


The following comtains teh calculations involved, as well as a nice example.


http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/drag#accel

As well as a nice one-liner to sum it all up...

A car will always have a top speed equal to its gear-limited top speed, or its drag-limited top speed, whichever is lower.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Gilly]

Thanks for the info Scaff, it does go some way to explaining what I'm seeing and why, which is what I was hoping for

 

[santiagomo87]

 

[deadlyz33]

The 350z gears Gilly psted seem very close, I'm almost positive you can hit the speed limiter in 5th gear (155mph or so)

Might have to do a midnight run to check....

 

[NLxAROSA]

I can confirm from first hand that the first four gears are quite accurate for the 350z. 168 mph for 5th is not that strange, if you take drag into account and the fact that is electronically limited at 250 kmh (156 mph). Without the electronic limiter, it's not hard to imagine that you can get to 160-162 in that same gear. I doubt you will be able to make the top speed in 6th gear.

Would have to take it to the Autobahn to see what it can really do though.

 

[Gilly]

The 350z gears Gilly psted seem very close, I'm almost positive you can hit the speed limiter in 5th gear (155mph or so)

Might have to do a midnight run to check....

No no no I can't be held responsible for people getting speeding tickets just to keep me informed of their cars limits, it's dangerous and illegal oh o.k then why not, just be sure to let the Police man know Gilly said he needs to know how fast my car goes in every gear so it's alright

 

[Cold Fussion]

Exclusively and solely for you, Gilly, I made a comparison test with a random car: the Mini Cooper S. I compared the gearshift speeds from this video...



... to the gearshift speeds in the game. The results:

gear ---- game ---- real life
1.-2. --- 61 km/h --- 70 km/h
2.-3. -- 104 km/h -- 112 km/h
3.-4. -- 143 km/h -- 149 km/h
4.-5. -- 175 km/h -- 183 km/h
5.-6. -- 211 km/h -- 205 km/h (early shift)

If anything, the car is even geared shorter in the game.

P.S.: to anyone who loves cars: don't watch the video, as the driver seriously fries the clutch in 1st.

You have to factor in the tyres as well. The lower profile tyres have lower max speeds in each gear compared to higher profile tyres. Likewise, wider tyres have a higher max speed in each gear compared to slim tyres. Plus the power from the engine will probably be different and as the engine gets older it loses power.

 

[niky]

It's not just that.

Even with the car 100% stock, you can not rely on video evidence of what a car will do in terms of speed per rpm from a video of the instrument gauges.

I'm sure some of us have said this before, but car speedometers are laughably inaccurate. Laughably. Some manufacturers spec them so that they are close, but others have an inaccuracy of +/- 10 mph... or more, if you're unlucky.

The only way to get around this is to use a GPS-based performance meter to gauge actual velocity. Which I do, as part of my part-time work as a car reviewer.... which is why I'm keenly aware of this problem with speedometers.

As for tachometers... you'd be surprised. Some manufacturers also spec their tachometers to over-read. (We've seen this on the dyno with the car hooked up to a computer reading revs straight off the ECU) It protects the engines. If you let off because you think you're at redline when you're actually 300-500 rpm below it, the engine will live a little longer than if you're pinging off the limiter all the time. (No, pingng off the limiter won't hurt the engine, but revving it that high for long periods of time will increase engine wear).

Like Scaff says... the gearing in GT, apart from some very obvious glitches in regards to some cars with dual final ratios back in GT4, is largely accurate.