Gran Turismo: The heart of the game

[Toysuprahot]

The main point of this thread is to show what the characterized the most the old Gran Turismo's, in order to discuss about them with you.

Gran Turismo: A challenging game:
We know that earlier GT's were more challenging than the newer ones. We can understand this when for example the license tests weren't easy, as they are today.
Standing starts: Earlier Gran Turismo used standing starts for races. A little melody always was with the starting race, as well as the roaring of the other cars. It was part of Gran Turismo, not anymore. There was more "real" immersion, as well as this very "GT feeling.

Aggressive AI and harded time attacks: Gran Turismo also included more aggressive AI's; they could make mistakes, but they were also faster, adding to the realism and to the challenge. They were also fast from the beginning, which was a good thing, thus you don't experience racing against too lazy AI's, and you have a better value for progressing and having faster cars for races you can't win. Time attacks were harder as well, Gold once was for extremly fast racers and you had a special sensation once you golded the license tests.

Gran Turismo: A polished game:
Gran Turismo was also a very equal game. Locations and cars were less different due to their quality than due to their backround or look. Cars always received equal treatment and received unique treatments: When you went to a dealership, the feeling was always different from one brand to another, either to different soundtrack, to other pictures. For comparison, GT4 Dodge menu was like that:

In GT6 all like this with no difference:

These little details can matter.
Earlier GT's also didn't suffer from quality distinctions. When GT3 was released, all cars were made up again and the game still had lots of success. In GT5 standard cars, which are earlier generation cars, raced against premium cars, which were current generation cars. This quality hole was heavily criticized and gave the feeling of a game finished very fast.

Gran Turismo: a long and complete game:
GT always was a very long game. It could take you hundred of hours before you complete it. When people received GT6, many finished it one one week end. There were also a lot of different kind of races among the career ones: the one make races, drag races, and so on. Career races were also longer. Generally, a series of races sometimes took 20 long races. In GT6 it was usually 3 or 5. Features of the game were all available from the beginning such as B-Spec and there very few bugs.

Gran Turismo: a unique experience:
GT included a lots of different OST for different features, like time attacks to option mode. Every thing you looked was different and unique. Once you start the race, among the sound of the cars there was a little melody which would be with you on every races you initiated. All these little details shaped what we remember from Gran Turismo. All cars were not unlockable from the beginning and some were very secret, and you had to complete every single races in order to unlock them.

And to finish on a more nostalgic note,

 

[JR98]

I just started playing the original again and I loved how each dealership has it's own unique soundtrack, and how every car in the game has racing modifications instead of 3% (rough estimate). One thing I don't like about GT1 (and I think it was only GT1 that had this) is that when braking hard most cars get really unstable and braking is almost a drifting button. The main upside to modern GT's (GT5 & GT6) is they have much bigger soundtracks than older games. In GT1 you often hear the same music every 2-3 races because there is so few racing tracks in the game. Licences are definitely harder. Took me a few tries just to get bronze on the National B and A licences.

 

[Toysuprahot]

I really hope PD can bring back the magic with GT7, it's just about making the right decisions, the content isn't even a problem with 300 cars or lower..

 

[jontikis]

The main point of this thread is to show what the characterized the most the old Gran Turismo's, in order to discuss about them with you.

Gran Turismo: A challenging game:
We know that earlier GT's were more challenging than the newer ones. We can understand this when for example the license tests weren't easy, as they are today.
Standing starts: Earlier Gran Turismo used standing starts for races. A little melody always was with the starting race, as well as the roaring of the other cars. It was part of Gran Turismo, not anymore. There was more "real" immersion, as well as this very "GT feeling.

Aggressive AI and harded time attacks: Gran Turismo also included more aggressive AI's; they could make mistakes, but they were also faster, adding to the realism and to the challenge. They were also fast from the beginning, which was a good thing, thus you don't experience racing against too lazy AI's, and you have a better value for progressing and having faster cars for races you can't win. Time attacks were harder as well, Gold once was for extremly fast racers and you had a special sensation once you golded the license tests.

Gran Turismo: A polished game:
Gran Turismo was also a very equal game. Locations and cars were less different due to their quality than due to their backround or look. Cars always received equal treatment and received unique treatments: When you went to a dealership, the feeling was always different from one brand to another, either to different soundtrack, to other pictures. For comparison, GT4 Dodge menu was like that:

In GT6 all like this with no difference:

These little details can matter.
Earlier GT's also didn't suffer from quality distinctions. When GT3 was released, all cars were made up again and the game still had lots of success. In GT5 standard cars, which are earlier generation cars, raced against premium cars, which were current generation cars. This quality hole was heavily criticized and gave the feeling of a game finished very fast.

Gran Turismo: a long and complete game:
GT always was a very long game. It could take you hundred of hours before you complete it. When people received GT6, many finished it one one week end. There were also a lot of different kind of races among the career ones: the one make races, drag races, and so on. Career races were also longer. Generally, a series of races sometimes took 20 long races. In GT6 it was usually 3 or 5. Features of the game were all available from the beginning such as B-Spec and there very few bugs.

Gran Turismo: a unique experience:
GT included a lots of different OST for different features, like time attacks to option mode. Every thing you looked was different and unique. Once you start the race, among the sound of the cars there was a little melody which would be with you on every races you initiated. All these little details shaped what we remember from Gran Turismo. All cars were not unlockable from the beginning and some were very secret, and you had to complete every single races in order to unlock them.

And to finish on a more nostalgic note,

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

 

[chzsln485]

This is absolutely perfect. Disregarding all the simulation aspects of GT, this is the emotional, artistic side of it. As I have often said, part of the Gran Turismo appeal is its terrific soundtrack and presentation, the height of which was GT4. I would imagine it's quite difficult to give something as potentially dry and technical as a driving simulation game a real identifiable soul or character, but PDI managed it with GT.

 

[VBR]

Or, maybe we're all blinded by sentiment & nostalgia for "the good ole' days".

 

[Tired Tyres]

Or, maybe we're all blinded by sentiment & nostalgia for "the good ole' days".

Doubtful given how recent in real world terms all these games are and how easy it is to play them today if you have the right hardware.

That's how I don't THINK GT3 & 4 are much better than GT5 & 6 because of rose tints. I KNOW they are better because I still play them. I just have to make sure I'm further away from the screen than I am with GT5 & 6 due to the resolution of PS2 games. It's just as easy to look through GT1 and 2 to see how they did it.

The conclusion is straightforward. With every system advancement they lose something and get further and further away from what made them great in the first place.

 

[Toysuprahot]

I am pretty sure, if I introduce someone who doesn't care about graphics to Gran Turismo, he'll be way happier to play GT4 than GT6.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Or, maybe we're all blinded by sentiment & nostalgia for "the good ole' days".

Personally I think that has a lot to do with it but I'm sure many others would disagree. The real problem is, IMO, PD has to design a big game that suits the audience in 2015, and as I've said many times, one-size-fits-all doesn't work in this day and age. The audience is too varied, there are too many other games tugging at our playtime, too much real life going on, for all of us to have hundreds and hundreds of hours to dedicate to a single video game. Yes, some people still have that time and will enjoy a massive career mode and an economy that takes the equivalent of a part-time job in terms of hours to acquire a decent garage. Many of us just want to pick up and play. Most of us want to adjust difficulty levels to suit our skill levels. Some of us just want to race online and could care less about offline. Some the opposite. PD can really hit it out of the park if they retain the option of the core GT experience for those that want it, but allow the vast majority of users the option of tailoring their game experience to suit their individual needs.

 

[Toysuprahot]

Personally I think that has a lot to do with it but I'm sure many others would disagree. The real problem is, IMO, PD has to design a big game that suits the audience in 2015, and as I've said many times, one-size-fits-all doesn't work in this day and age. The audience is too varied, there are too many other games tugging at our playtime, too much real life going on, for all of us to have hundreds and hundreds of hours to dedicate to a single video game. Yes, some people still have that time and will enjoy a massive career mode and an economy that takes the equivalent of a part-time job in terms of hours to acquire a decent garage. Many of us just want to pick up and play. Most of us want to adjust difficulty levels to suit our skill levels. Some of us just want to race online and could care less about offline. Some the opposite. PD can really hit it out of the park if they retain the option of the core GT experience for those that want it, but allow the vast majority of users the option of tailoring their game experience to suit their individual needs.

For those who only care about picking a car and a track and play, I guess PD should refine their arcade mode, make a way more competitive AI, all Cars available in Arcade (except secret cars ), a non bugged online, and it should be solved.

 

[Turbo]

GT7 needs to be like Gt4. Everything about that game was perefect.

 

[Manasseh257NSX]

GT7 needs to be like Gt4. Everything about that game was perefect.

I agree, GT4 was IMO, the best overall Gran Turismo game that PD has made in the series. It delivered everything from great car selection, wide track selection, plenty of races to choose from, great graphics (For its time), and so much more. If PD could get back to their roots, they would be fine. GT use to have so much soul and character in it.

 

[Imari]

Doubtful given how recent in real world terms all these games are and how easy it is to play them today if you have the right hardware.

That's how I don't THINK GT3 & 4 are much better than GT5 & 6 because of rose tints. I KNOW they are better because I still play them. I just have to make sure I'm further away from the screen than I am with GT5 & 6 due to the resolution of PS2 games. It's just as easy to look through GT1 and 2 to see how they did it.

The conclusion is straightforward. With every system advancement they lose something and get further and further away from what made them great in the first place.

Yes and no.

The old games were good, but they were good at the time they were made. You could take the same games and give them fancy graphics and an updated car list and they'd be OK in 2015, but not great.

What was acceptable game design twenty years ago or ten years ago, isn't acceptable game design today. In 2015, everyone is a gamer to some extent. In 2015, people want to be having fun straight away. In 2015, games are so accessable that if a game isn't constantly engaging and rewarding, people will move on.

Older GTs did a lot of things right, but they also did a lot of things really wrong by today's standards. What great franchises do is keep the bits that work really well, and iterate or innovate on the bits that didn't work so well.

I do think identifying the parts of the old games that worked really well and should be carried into modern generation games is a worthy exercise. I may do a little digging myself later if I have more time.

 

[occasionalracer]

GT7 needs to be like Gt4. Everything about that game was perefect.

I'd construct that wish like this: GT7 needs to be more like GT4. Some things in that game were awesome.

 

[Manasseh257NSX]

Yes and no.

The old games were good, but they were good at the time they were made. You could take the same games and give them fancy graphics and an updated car list and they'd be OK in 2015, but not great.

What was acceptable game design twenty years ago or ten years ago, isn't acceptable game design today. In 2015, everyone is a gamer to some extent. In 2015, people want to be having fun straight away. In 2015, games are so accessable that if a game isn't constantly engaging and rewarding, people will move on.

Older GTs did a lot of things right, but they also did a lot of things really wrong by today's standards. What great franchises do is keep the bits that work really well, and iterate or innovate on the bits that didn't work so well.

I do think identifying the parts of the old games that worked really well and should be carried into modern generation games is a worthy exercise. I may do a little digging myself later if I have more time.

I feel like PD isn't evolving GT. Sure the graphics, car list, and track variety have definitely evolved but that hasn't exactly enhanced the fun factor that I had from the original games. I feel that their creativity, originality hasn't evolved at all. Like you said, "What great franchises do is keep the bits that work really well, and iterate or innovate on the bits that didn't work so well. " PD literally did the complete opposite IMO. What PD needs to do, is replicate some of the things they did right in GT1 - GT4. Then do an ENTIRE overhaul from there. PD has the capability to make GT7 off the walls incredible, it will just all depend how they go about it.

Like many have said on the forum, Every competing racing sim is evolving and becoming better by the year, while PD is stuck on a plateau.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes and no.

The old games were good, but they were good at the time they were made. You could take the same games and give them fancy graphics and an updated car list and they'd be OK in 2015, but not great.

What was acceptable game design twenty years ago or ten years ago, isn't acceptable game design today. In 2015, everyone is a gamer to some extent. In 2015, people want to be having fun straight away. In 2015, games are so accessable that if a game isn't constantly engaging and rewarding, people will move on.

Older GTs did a lot of things right, but they also did a lot of things really wrong by today's standards. What great franchises do is keep the bits that work really well, and iterate or innovate on the bits that didn't work so well.

I do think identifying the parts of the old games that worked really well and should be carried into modern generation games is a worthy exercise. I may do a little digging myself later if I have more time.

What??? Have you even looked at the design of older GT games? They are the very essence of pick up and play with quickly completed races and series.

Besides you don't know what "everyone" wants any more than I do. You know what you want, I know what I want. For every pick up and play type player there's another who'll sink 100's of hours into Fallout or Elder Scrolls titles, both multi Million selling franchises, in this supposed pick up and play era.

GT7 needs to be like Gt4. Everything about that game was perefect.

Nearly perfect. Remove the 25% game completion requirement to unlock the Endurance Hall and the requirement to complete the Beginner and Professional Halls before you can access the Extreme Hall and then you're looking at perfection of design. Apart from the Rabbits

 

[Johnnypenso]

Nearly perfect. Remove the 25% game completion requirement to unlock the Endurance Hall and the requirement to complete the Beginner and Professional Halls before you can access the Extreme Hall and then you're looking at perfection of design. Apart from the Rabbits

GT4 is perfection of design - in 2004. It's been done, it was good in it's day, it's 12 years later when GT7 is released and the gaming world has turned upside down. IMO @Imari is correct in that in this era, people want to pick up and play and have fun right away. Key thing is though - some people, not all people. As I've said many times, the game needs to pay homage to it's roots because that's what many fans want and love in a GT game, but it can also appeal to more casual players who just want to pick up and race fast cars, and more serious players who just want to race online and don't want an offline career. If there is a livery editor, those that just want to paint and design cars. A single path through the game ala GT4 is not good design IMO in 2015. GT7 will blow the doors off if it can incorporate a traditional offline career, a real-life motorsports oriented career, possible an online career, a sandbox mode and an event/career creator while at the same time having competitive, adjustable AI, along with their usual graphics wizardry.

If it follows GT tradition and sticks you into a long and boring career mode with suspect AI as the only way through the game, I'd say they are really missing out on a golden opportunity to revolutionize the sim racing genre.

 

[Manasseh257NSX]

GT4 is perfection of design - in 2004. It's been done, it was good in it's day, it's 12 years later when GT7 is released and the gaming world has turned upside down. IMO @Imari is correct in that in this era, people want to pick up and play and have fun right away. Key thing is though - some people, not all people. As I've said many times, the game needs to pay homage to it's roots because that's what many fans want and love in a GT game, but it can also appeal to more casual players who just want to pick up and race fast cars, and more serious players who just want to race online and don't want an offline career. Of if there is a livery editor, those that just want to paint and design cars. A single path through the game ala GT4 is not good design IMO in 2015. GT7 will blow the doors off if it can incorporate a traditional offline career, a real-life motorsports oriented career, possible an online career, a sandbox mode and an event/career creator while at the same time having competitive, adjustable AI, along with their usual graphics wizardry.

If it follows GT tradition and sticks you into a long and boring career mode with suspect AI as the only way through the game, I'd say they are really missing out on a golden opportunity to revolutionize the sim racing genre.

To me, it sounds that GT should go about letting the player choose whether they want to play traditionally or casually. OR have an online, totally re-hauled Arcade mode. Something like GT1's-GT2's arcade progression combined with GT3 and GT4's car selection. Added with GT5's ability to change every aspect of the track, weather, tire/fuel consumption. Add in the option to choose your opponents, make an arcade tournament, added with online play. Man! that'd be something!

 

[Tired Tyres]

GT4 is perfection of design - in 2004. It's been done, it was good in it's day, it's 12 years later when GT7 is released and the gaming world has turned upside down. IMO @Imari is correct in that in this era, people want to pick up and play and have fun right away. Key thing is though - some people, not all people. As I've said many times, the game needs to pay homage to it's roots because that's what many fans want and love in a GT game, but it can also appeal to more casual players who just want to pick up and race fast cars, and more serious players who just want to race online and don't want an offline career. Of if there is a livery editor, those that just want to paint and design cars. A single path through the game ala GT4 is not good design IMO in 2015. GT7 will blow the doors off if it can incorporate a traditional offline career, a real-life motorsports oriented career, possible an online career, a sandbox mode and an event/career creator while at the same time having competitive, adjustable AI, along with their usual graphics wizardry.

If it follows GT tradition and sticks you into a long and boring career mode with suspect AI as the only way through the game, I'd say they are really missing out on a golden opportunity to revolutionize the sim racing genre.

Wrong. Again, you speak for yourself - no one else. If gaming has turned on its head for you then that's you. Look at the sales of Skyrim, Fallout 3, any number of COD's and FIFA's. None of them are doing it all that differently to when they started out, they just dress it up in the latest graphics. Look at the sales figures for them.

The problem is that GT-Mode in GT5 and GT6 were sacrificed in order to concentrate on the online gaming aspect. Fine if you race online, complete rubbish if you don't. Balance of resources is needed together with a pick up and play Arcade mode. Do it right and you suit most players - not just some of the players.

 

[sk8er913]

Wrong. Again, you speak for yourself - no one else. If gaming has turned on its head for you then that's you. Look at the sales of Skyrim, Fallout 3, any number of COD's and FIFA's. None of them are doing it all that differently to when they started out, they just dress it up in the latest graphics. Look at the sales figures for them.

The problem is that GT-Mode in GT5 and GT6 were sacrificed in order to concentrate on the online gaming aspect. Fine if you race online, complete rubbish if you don't. Balance of resources is needed together with a pick up and play Arcade mode. Do it right and you suit most players - not just some of the players.

He isn't speaking for himself, online play is incredible. The people that have decided to not participate in online series such as the GTPlanet Endurance Series and the WRS are really missing out.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Wrong. Again, you speak for yourself - no one else. If gaming has turned on its head for you then that's you. Look at the sales of Skyrim, Fallout 3, any number of COD's and FIFA's. None of them are doing it all that differently to when they started out, they just dress it up in the latest graphics. Look at the sales figures for them.

The problem is that GT-Mode in GT5 and GT6 were sacrificed in order to concentrate on the online gaming aspect. Fine if you race online, complete rubbish if you don't. Balance of resources is needed together with a pick up and play Arcade mode. Do it right and you suit most players - not just some of the players.

Just a few snippets of me speaking for myself:
some people, not all people
what many fans want [not all]
appeal to more casual players
and more serious players
those that just want to paint and design cars

/s