GT7 ForceFeedback Update incoming ?!

  • Thread starter PirovacBoy
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777
Germany
Cologne/Germany
PirovacBoy
Hello People, as most of us should have noticed, Fanatec is going to build a DD1 Wheel especially for GT7.
Well, having that in mind, I was wondering if that probably might be a clue that PD, in association with Fanatec are probably working on an improved ForceFeedback for GT7.
Or do you think it’s just PR, corporating with PD to just push the sales for Fanatec ?.
I mean, I know it’s all about the sales and Numbers and making Money, but a little bit greenness is letting me hope that we eventually might get a big Improvement from PDs‘ side.
I mean, what’s the point in having such a powerful Tool like the DD1 in a game like GTS/GT7 ?!
For Games like Project Cars or Assetto Corsa I definitely can see benefits in using a DD Wheel.
But from my experience with GTS over the past few years, I can’t see a benefit in using such a Wheel.
Let’s be honest, in GTS there is absolutely no Road/Track Surface Feel felt through the Wheel.
The Tracks do all feel the same “flat“ way.
So my hopes are there that PD might be working on a proper and detailed ForceFeedback implementation for GT7, which than could be properly translated with a DD Wheel.
Probably with any other ForceFeedback supported Wheel too, but with Fanatec as their Official Partner…well, I don’t know.
What do you think?!
Are you hoping for an improved Force Feedback for your Wheels with the upcoming release of GT7 ?!
Or don’t you care for such things.
I just recently started to evolve my Sim Racing Horizon and switched over to some other Console Sim Racing Games.
It was like Night n‘ Day in Comparison :lol:
 
53
Australia
Australia
titchy8
I'm hoping for a surface-detail improvement too mate.

Also, I'm hoping that whatever "special" features / functionality the GT<->Fanatec wheel and pedals might have will also be available with the higher-end Fanatec offerings like the 20 and 25nm DD units, wheels and pedals.
I'm with you this, I ordered the podium f1 dd. It has now been pushed back to May. I am thinking I might cancel my order and just wait to hear news on this especially regarding the GT fanatec wheel. Has it actually been confirmed to be a DD? or is that just rumour?
 
432
Australia
Melbourne
Nicky-Boy_7
I think it'll be a DD, but I don't know for sure mate.

I do think it's safe to assume it'll be "CSL quality".
 
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12,304
Australia
Adelaide
GTP_Imari
Let’s be honest, in GTS there is absolutely no Road/Track Surface Feel felt through the Wheel.
The Tracks do all feel the same “flat“ way.
I suspect this is due to the way Polyphony build their track surfaces. A few tracks aside, they simply don't seem to put significant detail into the mesh of the racing surface as compared to other games like those you mentioned. Their original tracks are particular offenders in this regard, at least laser scanned RL tracks generally maintain a sense of the real texture of the tarmac.

This would unfortunately mean that even the best FFB system in the world won't help, as there's no track texture there to communicate to the player. I think if Polyphony started by adding more bumps and textures to their tracks then that would allow their current FFB systems to be experienced to the greatest extent. And then if they chose to improve the FFB further, there would be something there actually worth feeling.

But in general I wouldn't really expect mass market sims like GT or Forza to really be worth getting a DD wheel for. If someone has thousands of dollars to spend on peripherals and is dedicated enough to do so, it feels like they're probably a bit beyond an entry level sim like GT. I think the GT branded DD wheel is more of a halo product than anything, it's more marketing than a viable way to play the game - compared to something like the Driving Force GT was, that wheel was a cracker.

IMO every GT should release with a ~$200 FFB wheel of that sort of quality, they felt plasticky but they were robust and gave great feel for the price. Magnificent way to get people into sim racing, because after 6 to 12 months with a DFGT it's hard not to think about how much you'd love something just a bit better.
 
777
Germany
Cologne/Germany
PirovacBoy
So actually, like @Monkey Man and @Imari mentioned, it’s mainly the surface details that need to be improved.
That were my initial thoughts too, as I think it’s the main reason why the Force Feedback in GT Games feel dull, hence we don’t get an immersive experience.
For me personally i‘m fine with the underlying Driving physics GT has to offer.
When I’m comparing my driving experience in GT to PC or AC, it doesn’t seem much different.
The approach is mainly the same, with the big difference that in the latter mentioned Games, I can actually feel what the Car is doing hence I drive more intuitive and get a much better Immersion in these Games, where compared to GT Games, it always feels like repetition and memorizing is the only way to drive fast.
So the big question is how hard would it be for a Company like PD to build a proper underlying track surface detail System and implement it to GT.
I mean if Kunos or SMS are able to do so, I don’t see a Problem for PD to do it the same way?!
I‘m no Programmer or Developer but for PD it should be a must have feature IMO.
They put so much love and detail into their Games, especially Kaz who is a real Car enthusiast, that I really do hope that they might put the same love and passion into the track Details to make GT7 an outstanding experience.
Otherwise like you said @Imari it would be overkill to have such a Wheel in GT7.
Haha, yeah the good ol‘ DFGT, I owned that one too…bought the GT3 Bundle back in the early 00‘s and felt like the greatest Driver on Earth :lol:
 
1,766
Spain
valencia
Donnced
Hello People, as most of us should have noticed, Fanatec is going to build a DD1 Wheel especially for GT7.
Well, having that in mind, I was wondering if that probably might be a clue that PD, in association with Fanatec are probably working on an improved ForceFeedback for GT7.
Or do you think it’s just PR, corporating with PD to just push the sales for Fanatec ?.
I mean, I know it’s all about the sales and Numbers and making Money, but a little bit greenness is letting me hope that we eventually might get a big Improvement from PDs‘ side.
I mean, what’s the point in having such a powerful Tool like the DD1 in a game like GTS/GT7 ?!
For Games like Project Cars or Assetto Corsa I definitely can see benefits in using a DD Wheel.
But from my experience with GTS over the past few years, I can’t see a benefit in using such a Wheel.
Let’s be honest, in GTS there is absolutely no Road/Track Surface Feel felt through the Wheel.
The Tracks do all feel the same “flat“ way.
So my hopes are there that PD might be working on a proper and detailed ForceFeedback implementation for GT7, which than could be properly translated with a DD Wheel.
Probably with any other ForceFeedback supported Wheel too, but with Fanatec as their Official Partner…well, I don’t know.
What do you think?!
Are you hoping for an improved Force Feedback for your Wheels with the upcoming release of GT7 ?!
Or don’t you care for such things.
I just recently started to evolve my Sim Racing Horizon and switched over to some other Console Sim Racing Games.
It was like Night n‘ Day in Comparison :lol:
It will be the CSL DD with a PS/GT rim, not a DD1

Now PD just changed from oficial wheel brand..PS3 was Logitech, PS4 thrustmaster, now fanatec.

GT7 will still be a game focused to the masses and most of them play with controller, sure dualsense implementation will be top notch.
FFB will be improved ,most part thanks to the DD FFB, for the rest of wheels it will be a correct FFB as always
 
12,304
Australia
Adelaide
GTP_Imari
So the big question is how hard would it be for a Company like PD to build a proper underlying track surface detail System and implement it to GT.
I mean if Kunos or SMS are able to do so, I don’t see a Problem for PD to do it the same way?!
I‘m no Programmer or Developer but for PD it should be a must have feature IMO.
They put so much love and detail into their Games, especially Kaz who is a real Car enthusiast, that I really do hope that they might put the same love and passion into the track Details to make GT7 an outstanding experience.
It's not that it would be terribly hard. They have to model the entire track and surrounds anyway so having someone spend a week adding appropriate texture to the racing surface is absolutely something they could do if they wanted to. They don't because they don't want to.

Why would they not want to?

If I had to guess, it's because the vast majority of players are going to be using a pad and therefore won't really feel any of that work. But it will still affect the behaviour of the car, and that's potentially a negative for the casual player that is the target of a game like Gran Turismo. At best, the player doesn't notice at all. At worst, it's something that affects the behaviour of the car in a non-intuitive way that makes it a bad experience for pad players. If you try and play AC or something with a controller on a bumpy track it can be pretty hard even if you know what you're doing. It's certainly not something that would be a good experience for a casual player.

You could amend the control scheme such that pad players by default have an assist that counteracts the movement of the car from minor road features (and can be switched off for those advanced pad players who would prefer not to have it), but at this point it's a lot of extra work to make it play exactly the same for most people as if you'd never added the texture to the road surface at all.

Kaz may be a real car enthusiast, but he's a business man first. He knows that he can't support a studio with hundreds of employees on the sales that games like PCARS2 or AC get. Improved FFB feel is unlikely to sell extra units. Stuff like weather and time-of-day is better, because at least it makes for good marketing blurb and fancy bullshots. Gran Turismo in 2021 isn't a passion project, it's a massive investment for Sony and the design choices that get made are the ones that Kaz and co. think will result in a game that sells well.

Unfortunately, there's no real reason for Gran Turismo to get further into the hardcore simulation space and lots of reasons for them not to. That is sadly the likely answer to why a lot of the more advanced features common to sims aren't in the game - Kaz doesn't think he'll get a return on the investment of adding them into a casual focused game like Gran Turismo. And more sadly, he's probably not wrong, which means that those people who got into sim racing through Gran Turismo end up being pushed away to other games if they want to be playing racing games that are at the forefront of consumer simulation technology.
 
271
In real life going over a bump it's felt through the chassis and suspension not the steering wheel, unless the car has a case of bump steer. In a sim there isn't that feedback so having the wheel replicate it with the force feedback to some extent is helpful - perhaps it could be adjustable to suit different preferences.
 
291
Taiwan
Taiwan
Hello People, as most of us should have noticed, Fanatec is going to build a DD1 Wheel especially for GT7.
Well, having that in mind, I was wondering if that probably might be a clue that PD, in association with Fanatec are probably working on an improved ForceFeedback for GT7.
Or do you think it’s just PR, corporating with PD to just push the sales for Fanatec ?.
I mean, I know it’s all about the sales and Numbers and making Money, but a little bit greenness is letting me hope that we eventually might get a big Improvement from PDs‘ side.
I mean, what’s the point in having such a powerful Tool like the DD1 in a game like GTS/GT7 ?!
For Games like Project Cars or Assetto Corsa I definitely can see benefits in using a DD Wheel.
But from my experience with GTS over the past few years, I can’t see a benefit in using such a Wheel.
Let’s be honest, in GTS there is absolutely no Road/Track Surface Feel felt through the Wheel.
The Tracks do all feel the same “flat“ way.
So my hopes are there that PD might be working on a proper and detailed ForceFeedback implementation for GT7, which than could be properly translated with a DD Wheel.
Probably with any other ForceFeedback supported Wheel too, but with Fanatec as their Official Partner…well, I don’t know.
What do you think?!
Are you hoping for an improved Force Feedback for your Wheels with the upcoming release of GT7 ?!
Or don’t you care for such things.
I just recently started to evolve my Sim Racing Horizon and switched over to some other Console Sim Racing Games.
It was like Night n‘ Day in Comparison :lol:
Someone said: You just wait sunshine.

8:27
 
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LeGeNd-1

Premium
6,872
Australia
Australia
GTP_LeGeNd-1
One of the most controversial FFB topics in GTS is the vibration/rattling effect when you have understeer. In the latest trailer (at 0:37) Kaz still thinks that to be true, when it's common sense to anyone who has experienced understeer IRL that the steering wheel goes light instead (not to be confused with wheel hop, which is another phenomenon entirely).




I guess we won't have much improvements in FFB then...
 
224
I am wondering about that as well, as PDs cooperations is mostly used for PR-talk and no actual impact on the game, while I am under the impression Fanatec usually delivers on these things.
There is an interview in german with Thomas Jackermeier (Fanatec CEO) where he pretty much confirmed that the wheel they are going to bring for Gran Turismo is going to be a "entry level direct drive wheel".
He also talks about their contract with PD being about "developing new wheels" in plural, so maybe there is going to be an entry level wheel for the release and something more advanced further down the line? But that also means they don't have any influence on actual gameplay, so FFB improvements are probably on PD only.
 

JDMKING13

PGTR Realistic Club
Premium
4,286
United States
Edison NJ
jdmking13
Lucid killer 58
I know when I went from my Logitech g series to the TMT300 GTS driving wise felt way different! I can actually feel my tires slip, understeer, a lot more bumps and chassis balance is more noticeable. I agree with the wheel just feeling dead during straights, this is where ACC destroys GTS in the feedback department. What is weird though is if you drive the Nurburgring you can feel the bumps through the whole track, vs driving Monza is smooth like glass. Driving on Monza in ACC is so fun because you feel the bumps which just gives the drive more character. If GT7 adds road surface feedback it will boost the feedback up a lot let’s hope.
 
15
United States
United States
I said in another thread that improved FFB is my most anticipated feature for GT7, but sadly there has been little mention of it. The trailers we've seen thus far as well as the game being cross-generational doesn't inspire much confidence in me though. I agree that it would strange for GT7 to have an officially licensed DD wheel from Fanatec when the engine wouldn't make good use of its capabilities. We really don't know until Fanatec's official reveal and GT7's release.

Best case: We get a licensed wheel that is essentially a Fanatec CSL DD wheelbase and GT7 customized rim; and GT7 surprises us with an overhauled FFB system despite using the same engine as GTS.

Probable case: We get a licensed wheel that is essentially a Fanatec CSL DD wheelbase and GT7 customized rim; but GT7 disappoints with the same surface feedback as GTS.

Worst case: We get a licensed wheel from Fanatec that is a gimped version of their CSL DD (or even just the CSL Elite) with a GT7 rim; and GT7 uses the same FFB system as GTS.
 
1,582
United States
Illinois
no1needs2perish
@DomB_Fanatec
Will Fanatec equipment have new FFB model/physics on GT7 at launch?
From below GT7 info, the DualSense controller receives new FFB with its enhanced haptics, so it stands to reason that the Fanatec partnership with PD would yield such a change!
634173D9-B352-4B29-9026-E1400CD2143C.jpeg
 
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257
Netherlands
Netherlands
I can only imagine having adaptive pedal resistance, like you could feel your brake locking up or something. But I don't think those exist, and I don't think we'll see it anytime soon.
 
410
Canada
Canada
It's not that it would be terribly hard. They have to model the entire track and surrounds anyway so having someone spend a week adding appropriate texture to the racing surface is absolutely something they could do if they wanted to. They don't because they don't want to.

Why would they not want to?

If I had to guess, it's because the vast majority of players are going to be using a pad and therefore won't really feel any of that work. But it will still affect the behaviour of the car, and that's potentially a negative for the casual player that is the target of a game like Gran Turismo. At best, the player doesn't notice at all. At worst, it's something that affects the behaviour of the car in a non-intuitive way that makes it a bad experience for pad players. If you try and play AC or something with a controller on a bumpy track it can be pretty hard even if you know what you're doing. It's certainly not something that would be a good experience for a casual player.

You could amend the control scheme such that pad players by default have an assist that counteracts the movement of the car from minor road features (and can be switched off for those advanced pad players who would prefer not to have it), but at this point it's a lot of extra work to make it play exactly the same for most people as if you'd never added the texture to the road surface at all.

Kaz may be a real car enthusiast, but he's a business man first. He knows that he can't support a studio with hundreds of employees on the sales that games like PCARS2 or AC get. Improved FFB feel is unlikely to sell extra units. Stuff like weather and time-of-day is better, because at least it makes for good marketing blurb and fancy bullshots. Gran Turismo in 2021 isn't a passion project, it's a massive investment for Sony and the design choices that get made are the ones that Kaz and co. think will result in a game that sells well.

Unfortunately, there's no real reason for Gran Turismo to get further into the hardcore simulation space and lots of reasons for them not to. That is sadly the likely answer to why a lot of the more advanced features common to sims aren't in the game - Kaz doesn't think he'll get a return on the investment of adding them into a casual focused game like Gran Turismo. And more sadly, he's probably not wrong, which means that those people who got into sim racing through Gran Turismo end up being pushed away to other games if they want to be playing racing games that are at the forefront of consumer simulation technology.
Who even is a casual gamer these days? Either you play or you don't. You either get good or you put on a movie. Or stick to mobile and leave the console on the store shelf.

I have to think a large portion of the audience of GT7 is more than capable of handling a controller or wheel and having that slightest bit of perseverance it takes to cleanly podium in a race against AI.

I'd say that those who can play any video game at default difficulty or those who can get a few kills in a round of Call of Duty will make up a large portion of the people who will but this game day one.

I'm beginning to question whether this excuse of coddling players is even real.
 
41
Sweden
Sweden
Im intrested to know more about fanatecs V3 pedals. They have vibration on the gas and brake, will these transmit whatever haptics found in the dualsense controller to the pedals?

IF we can buy the dd base by itself and v3 pedals on the side, a proper size wheel (35cm) and a shifter this sounds promising.
 
432
Australia
Melbourne
Nicky-Boy_7
Im intrested to know more about fanatecs V3 pedals. They have vibration on the gas and brake, will these transmit whatever haptics found in the dualsense controller to the pedals?
Not unless the game is coded for it. Thus far GT hasn't supported it, but when it comes to GT7 and with the new partnership in mind, who knows?

Either way, the Club Sport V3 pedal set is pretty-damned good.

IF we can buy the dd base by itself and v3 pedals on the side, a proper size wheel (35cm) and a shifter this sounds promising.
Indeed it does mate. This is what I plan to do. The GT (PS5 & PC-compatible) base, the V3 pedals and a wheel that I haven't decided on yet.
 
41
Sweden
Sweden
Not unless the game is coded for it. Thus far GT hasn't supported it, but when it comes to GT7 and with the new partnership in mind, who knows?

Either way, the Club Sport V3 pedal set is pretty-damned good.


Indeed it does mate. This is what I plan to do. The GT (PS5 & PC-compatible) base, the V3 pedals and a wheel that I haven't decided on yet.
I bought a nardi leather knock off on aliexpress for my tx racing base and had an adapter 3dprinted for me. It runs via gimx adapter from a laptop to play on ps4. I have chinese handbrake from aliexpress too, with this adapter every different peripheral can be made to work.

Unfortunately the crappy ffb and unlinear throttle is still something present in GTS.
 
34
Germany
Germany
I have no frame of reference for what a 'good' FFB is supposed to feel like. But I would very much like more tracks to feel like the Nordschleife in GT. It's hard to go back to some smooth surface with wide corners that may as well be an airfield after going through that bumpy, narrow rollercoaster with the retro feel.
 
143
Sweden
Sweden
I have no frame of reference for what a 'good' FFB is supposed to feel like. But I would very much like more tracks to feel like the Nordschleife in GT. It's hard to go back to some smooth surface with wide corners that may as well be an airfield after going through that bumpy, narrow rollercoaster with the retro feel.
I'd like this as an option, like in ACC, called "road effect". Personally I only want to feel things that affect the handling, so no "road effect" for me please.
Glass surface with "seat of pants" effect would be perfect for me, with enhanced understeer and traction loss effect.
 

Jump_Ace

Compare Yourself To The Best Of Your Own Abilities
Staff Emeritus
8,602
United States
Portland, OR
Jump_Ace
JUMPxACE
It's not that it would be terribly hard. They have to model the entire track and surrounds anyway so having someone spend a week adding appropriate texture to the racing surface is absolutely something they could do if they wanted to. They don't because they don't want to.

Why would they not want to?

If I had to guess, it's because the vast majority of players are going to be using a pad and therefore won't really feel any of that work. But it will still affect the behaviour of the car, and that's potentially a negative for the casual player that is the target of a game like Gran Turismo. At best, the player doesn't notice at all. At worst, it's something that affects the behaviour of the car in a non-intuitive way that makes it a bad experience for pad players. If you try and play AC or something with a controller on a bumpy track it can be pretty hard even if you know what you're doing. It's certainly not something that would be a good experience for a casual player.

You could amend the control scheme such that pad players by default have an assist that counteracts the movement of the car from minor road features (and can be switched off for those advanced pad players who would prefer not to have it), but at this point it's a lot of extra work to make it play exactly the same for most people as if you'd never added the texture to the road surface at all.

Kaz may be a real car enthusiast, but he's a business man first. He knows that he can't support a studio with hundreds of employees on the sales that games like PCARS2 or AC get. Improved FFB feel is unlikely to sell extra units. Stuff like weather and time-of-day is better, because at least it makes for good marketing blurb and fancy bullshots. Gran Turismo in 2021 isn't a passion project, it's a massive investment for Sony and the design choices that get made are the ones that Kaz and co. think will result in a game that sells well.

Unfortunately, there's no real reason for Gran Turismo to get further into the hardcore simulation space and lots of reasons for them not to. That is sadly the likely answer to why a lot of the more advanced features common to sims aren't in the game - Kaz doesn't think he'll get a return on the investment of adding them into a casual focused game like Gran Turismo. And more sadly, he's probably not wrong, which means that those people who got into sim racing through Gran Turismo end up being pushed away to other games if they want to be playing racing games that are at the forefront of consumer simulation technology.
You nailed buddy (as usual). I'm one of those guys you mention who started racing with GT1 (well Super Mario Kart, but...you know) and I can't stop playing ACC just for the sheer fact that it better replicates realism. While I will for sure be playing GT7 like mad when it comes out, I'll be playing it for different reasons. 1) I hope to apply the (hard) lessons I learned in ACC to GT7 by trying to race the exact same way. Not because I expect the same results, but I want to see the different results. 2) Playing career mode in GT is legit one of my fav things to do in life as sad as that may be :lol: I just love the license tests, progression...all of it. I'll just try not to re-learn any bad habits along the way (like trailbraking basically every single turn).


Jerome
 

Scaff

Moderator
26,645
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
I'd like this as an option, like in ACC, called "road effect". Personally I only want to feel things that affect the handling, so no "road effect" for me please.
Glass surface with "seat of pants" effect would be perfect for me, with enhanced understeer and traction loss effect.
OK, I just want to nail this, partial, myth once and for all.

Yes you can and do get to feel road texture through a steering wheel in reality, how much will depend on the car and a number of factors around its construction.

Now it is true that on most modern road cars the use of electric PAS, dampers tuned for driver comfort and improved NVH design has pretty much removed all but the most extreme elements of road feel from the wheel, but for a good number of cars in reality it can still very much be felt. Those with far more track orientated dampers, regardless of electric PAS will allow you to feel more of the road surface via the steering (my own I30N Performance demonstrates that, particularly when the dampers are set to the utterly track focused Sport+ mode). Lower the profile of the tyres and again you will feel more as the spring effect from the tyres is reduced.

If you then move into race spec cars, running very low profile rubber, with highly aggressive spring and damper settings (in comparison to even the most focused road cars), equipped with rose joints and all those NVH developed suspension bushings gone, and you most certainly now can feel the track surface through the steering.

Will the majority of that communication still be via your arse? Yep, but that does not mean that some of it being communicated via the wheel is wrong.

Edit to add. Where it can become an issue with sims is if its overdone and starts to interfere with the core feedback you need and which should still be dominant.
 
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527
United States
San Diego
Agreed wholeheartedly. My 2021 Ford Transit compensator van is my first new vehicle in 16 years. And this is the first vehicle that has the stupid-easy to turn, electronic-aided steering (it’s so good…. I constantly HAVE to remind myself not to “dry steer”).

Although a lot of the road texture has been nullified by the electric steering (compared to my other PS-only vehicles), I can still feel plenty of it through the wheel as I enjoy California’s famously immaculate freeway system :lol: during my 120 mile commute.

The coding that goes into both sides of the FFB equation, between the wheel bases and sim titles simply is amazing when you take into account everything a wheel is able to convey to you by itself.

That’s why I hope that PD through their perpetual updates, takes advantage of the PS5’s horsepower and allows for telemetry-based transducer use (that @Scaff so eloquently explained to me the other day). I think they might…
 
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