GT7 suspension still broken.

[NIKOLAUNCH]

Greetings. I've been observing this issue since the days of Gran Turismo Sport. But after the latest update, I want to draw attention to this problem. This is no longer acceptable, and a game with such fundamental issues cannot be called a simulator. As you know, on a car with a solid axle, the wheel camber angle cannot be changed. Gran Turismo completely ignores this. Here's a list of game updates since its release, in which the suspension was "improved":

Update 1.31
Suspension Physics
　・The calculations model of the suspension geometry has been adjusted. This will improve stability of the car orientation during braking, and traction during acceleration.
　・The damping characteristics of the suspensions has also been adjusted. This will improve stability of the car when driving over bumps and curbs.
Update 1.25
Other Improvements and Adjustments
1. Physics Simulation Model
　- The suspension geometry for each car has been adjusted.
　- The initial values for suspension parts have been adjusted.
Update 1.20
Other Improvements and Adjustments
1. Physics Simulation Model
　- Adjusted the suspension geometry.
Update 1.13
11. Car Behavior
　- Adjusted the geometry calculations algorithm for the suspension. This has resulted in improved traction for rear-wheel drive cars and lessened reactions to weight transfer;

After the major 1.31 update, I expected that this would finally be fixed, but nothing changed. You can check it yourself.

Spoiler: Some more visual examples:

As you can see, the wheel camber angle does change, and the wheels are not "rigidly connected". I wonder, how does this compare to a popular arcade game?

Spoiler: Lets check it

PERFECT

After conducting this check, I was truly disappointed. I want to add that I still love the Gran Turismo series very much, and it brings me a lot of enjoyment despite its flaws. But I really want the series to make a significant leap forward, especially in light of the upcoming major racing simulators such as Assetto Corsa 2 and Forza Motorsport.

Bonus, during the tests, I noticed that the wheels are "clipped" inside the wheel arches to hide the deficiencies in simulating suspension geometry.

 

[Aloha62_2]

As you know, on a car with a solid axle, the wheel camber angle cannot be changed.

Yes you can. Either through floating hubs, or prebuilt axles with adjusted drive plates. Same with toe on a solid axle.

Not cheap though, we have only done a few of those set-ups, have to do some thorough measuring and an alignment report first otherwise you are going to have to order multiple expensive parts.

 

[MonoTonouS]

Visual representation and underlying physics code aren't one in the same . That arcade game you showed may not even simulate camber even on cars that have it.
A good example is forza horizon . The physics calculate wheel speed but the game has a baked spinning wheel animation that you can clearly see .

 

[NIKOLAUNCH]

Yes you can. Either through floating hubs, or prebuilt axles with adjusted drive plates. Same with toe on a solid axle.

Not cheap though, we have only done a few of those set-ups, have to do some thorough measuring and an alignment report first otherwise you are going to have to order multiple expensive parts.

I may have expressed myself incorrectly, I apologize as I'm using a translator. I wanted to clarify that in the game, the wheel camber angle changes during driving, as demonstrated in the screenshots. This is impossible on solid axles. By the way, I'm referring to a 1945 car and its production suspension.

Visual representation and underlying physics code aren't one in the same . That arcade game you showed may not even simulate camber even on cars that have it.
A good example is forza horizon . The physics calculate wheel speed but the game has a baked spinning wheel animation that you can clearly see .

You are absolutely right, the visual aspect may differ from the simulation. However, the fact that it is a significant part of immersion and perception cannot be denied. If the game cannot accurately visualize what is happening, it can be assumed that there may be technical issues as well.

 

[LSFDRX]

I may have expressed myself incorrectly, I apologize as I'm using a translator. I wanted to clarify that in the game, the wheel camber angle changes during driving, as demonstrated in the screenshots. This is impossible on solid axles. By the way, I'm referring to a 1945 car and its production suspension.


You are absolutely right, the visual aspect may differ from the simulation. However, the fact that it is a significant part of immersion and perception cannot be denied. If the game cannot accurately visualize what is happening, it can be assumed that there may be technical issues as well.

I get what you're saying, but GT7 or any other game trying to simulate everything involved with a car in motion is never going to be perfect.

It's bothered me too... but not to the point of worrying about the underlying physics. The physics model itself (while I enjoy it very much) lends itself to enough criticism through the way things function without drawing correlation to the visuals.

I also get bothered by putting wheels with the wrong lug pattern (4-lug wheels on a 5-lug car for example), but this is something to be laughed about, not call into question different aspects of the game.

Because I'm a nerd and love/sweat the details, I make sure aftermarket wheels have the right pattern, and on cars that have solid rear axles, I always make sure to set rear camber to 0. I know both sides are still going to act "independently", but this is an inconsequential detail in the ocean of things that make GT7 and other driving sims great.

 

[eran0004]

That’s an inaccurate model (visually at least), not a broken one. A broken model would be one that doesn’t function as intended.

 

[Greycap]

[...] and on cars that have solid rear axles, I always make sure to set rear camber to 0.

Volvo Group A disagrees. It's definitely not a thing for Joe Average to do but if you've simulating a fully customizable suspension in the car anyway, I doubt any of this would be out of reach.

rear camber for 240's?

has anyone found a rear end to put in or some modification to have negative camber in the rear for 240's?

turbobricks.com

 

[Tommy_D]

This bothers you but you don't mention that some cars should never be allowed to have automatic transmissions in them? What about how you can have ABS and traction control on EVERY car in the game, STOCK!?! Thats not realistic at all. So should we completely throw out the game because it isn't realistic? I don't think so. It's a videogame. If you care so much about the reality of things, drive real cars in the real world. For a videogame, try suspending reality a bit and allowing some things to just not be real.

 

[Techlet]

This bothers you but you don't mention that some cars should never be allowed to have automatic transmissions in them? What about how you can have ABS and traction control on EVERY car in the game, STOCK!?! Thats not realistic at all. So should we completely throw out the game because it isn't realistic? I don't think so. It's a videogame. If you care so much about the reality of things, drive real cars in the real world. For a videogame, try suspending reality a bit and allowing some things to just not be real.

Those are in-game assists for accessibility, not car specific technology (even if they really should be).

It's like saying we navigate the world in GT7 by point and clicking a mouse cursor, therefore the game doesn't need to simulate vehicle dynamics properly.

 

[Tommy_D]

Those are in-game assists for accessibility, not car specific technology (even if they really should be).

It's like saying we navigate the world in GT7 by point and clicking a mouse cursor, therefore the game doesn't need to simulate vehicle dynamics properly.

No, they are features given to cars that they never came with in real life. Remember, the OP said this:

I want to draw attention to this problem. This is no longer acceptable, and a game with such fundamental issues cannot be called a simulator. As you know, on a car with a solid axle, the wheel camber angle cannot be changed. Gran Turismo completely ignores this.

The OP is talking about an in game feature that doesnt match real life. Does the Willies Jeep have adjustable camber in stock form in either real life or in the game? No. Can it be installed in real life? According the Aloha62_2, yes it can be installed in the aftermarket. Can you install a fully adjustable suspension to the Jeep and have adjustable camber in the game? Yes!

Can you get a Ferrari F40 with an automatic transmission or ABS in real life? Nope. Could you somehow install an automatic transmission and add a different braking system that has an ABS control module in real life? Yeah, I would bet you could. Do these come free with a stock F40 in GT7? You bet they do. Could PD have made the game more realistic and forced people to buy an automatic transmission or only offer ABS with a certain brake package or as a separate module like the brake balance controller? Of course they could, but it's a video game. They don't have to make it exactly like real life. They can alter things to make it more accessible to people right from the start. They can alter the graphics slightly to make the overall game run smoother and not depict exactly how the suspension of a solid axle Jeep going over some random rocks way off track would exactly work in real life because it's a video game.

 

[Techlet]

No, they are features given to cars that they never came with in real life.

"Automatic transmission" and "ABS" and every other assist in the game's assist menu are in-game assists. They're not car parts or features. The same with auto drive and driving lines and corner markers and braking areas, you name it. They are gameplay systems not car technologies even if they borrow the names of them (the first clue would be they're buried in the menus and not the tuning shop). They affect your input to the game, that's all.

Using the "automatic transmission" assist in a car with a manual gearbox simply means the game will shift the manual gears for you. It doesn't install an automatic in the car. Same goes with "ABS" and "traction control".

And yes, I do wish these assists could be car specific so we can create more realistic setups if we so wished.

That said, this game models rear wheel steering and even has a part we can install to adjust the angle. So, it's just weird that the same nuance isn't applied to cars with solid axles.

 

[NIKOLAUNCH]

That’s an inaccurate model (visually at least), not a broken one. A broken model would be one that doesn’t function as intended.

No matter how wrong the visualization is, the car cannot physically be in the position shown in the last screenshot. There is no suspension travel limitation in the game. Actually, because of this, GT3 can easily cut sausages at Monza.

No, they are features given to cars that they never came with in real life. Remember, the OP said this:


The OP is talking about an in game feature that doesnt match real life. Does the Willies Jeep have adjustable camber in stock form in either real life or in the game? No. Can it be installed in real life? According the Aloha62_2, yes it can be installed in the aftermarket. Can you install a fully adjustable suspension to the Jeep and have adjustable camber in the game? Yes!

Can you get a Ferrari F40 with an automatic transmission or ABS in real life? Nope. Could you somehow install an automatic transmission and add a different braking system that has an ABS control module in real life? Yeah, I would bet you could. Do these come free with a stock F40 in GT7? You bet they do. Could PD have made the game more realistic and forced people to buy an automatic transmission or only offer ABS with a certain brake package or as a separate module like the brake balance controller? Of course they could, but it's a video game. They don't have to make it exactly like real life. They can alter things to make it more accessible to people right from the start. They can alter the graphics slightly to make the overall game run smoother and not depict exactly how the suspension of a solid axle Jeep going over some random rocks way off track would exactly work in real life because it's a video game.

You're wrong mate. You have already been explained why, and I think it makes no sense to repeat other people's words. And a little advice, analogy is not an argument. You cannot justify such critical shortcomings by saying that they are possible in other conditions.
It's just a fact that technically it is very outdated and the developers do not improve it. Instead, it looks like they are trying to make the existing model work so that the players do not complain. We can say that this is for the sake of "casuals", but look at the circulation of Assetto Corsa, obviously there is a demand for realism.

 

[wheelhp]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The physics of GT7 are going to get improved over time. And what you see could just be the visual animations, not the physics model itself.

That said, I do appreciate threads like this that attempt to point out exactly what they think is wrong in a specific manner. Helps to shoot the arguments more accurately.