Gyroscopic Wheels

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XizangM1
Don't know if this has been mentioned before in these forums, but I have always been wondering why some drivers and racers don't take into account the gyroscopic forces that car wheels have on the car's handling. I mean, these tires are big, heavy, and can spin really, really fast. You would think for at least a second that all four tires on a high-speed car can act as gyroscopes and perhaps 'tilt' the car a bit as its turning, or perhaps add an additional force for the turning tires to cope with. Does anyone else assume the same thing?
 
If anything, they would stabilize the car, no? Don't bicycles stay upright, in part, due to the gyroscopic effect of the wheels turning? I could be mistaken.

I remember reading some of the F1 KERS devices implementing a flywheel that stored energy from braking also had the ability to act as a stabilizer for the car.
 
I've heard that this starts to really become noticeable when you get into some of the quicker Open-Wheelers, but I'm not sure how it would effect a road car.

-Active suspension has been long promised, but never really delivered.

-You need to consider the effect of leaning a tire inward and how this would affect the grip-oval and alignment of the car. Currently we try to have camber curves set up so that the tires are at an optimal gripping angle.

-Weight is also a major factor. Is leaning the tires in a bit worth the weight of all those computers, servos, and actuators.

I'm no race-engineer. I'm sure there are better answers out there.

Edit: I assume that the rotating mass of the engine and drivetrain have an effect on the stability as well.
 
engineers has always been trying to decrease unsprung weight, so what you is soughting after is directly opposed to that very idea.
 
If anything, they would stabilize the car, no? Don't bicycles stay upright, in part, due to the gyroscopic effect of the wheels turning? I could be mistaken.

You're right, but for the wrong reason :)

A bicycle does self-stabilise, and I expect to some extent the wheels on a car do the same, but due to caster rather than gyroscopic forces. On a bike, the front wheel is stabilised by the back wheel - the rigid back wheel lies behind the point of steering, effectively pulling it upright and keeping it stable.

Similar applies in a car. Most are set up with some degree of caster, which helps self-centre the steering. The pivot point of the steering is set ahead of the contact point of the wheel, so as the wheel "drags" along it tries to pull itself in a straight line, and the steering returns to the straight-ahead position.

As for gyroscopic forces on the wheels, the main issue I suspect is that there are already so many other factors working on the wheel that largely overcome the gyroscopic force - you have camber, the aforementioned caster, friction from the road surface, toe angle, and Ackermann angle, which is the mechanism allowing the front inside wheel to turn more than the outside wheel, as it's carving a tighter line.

As has been mentioned, car builders want as little unsprung weight as possible so all these different settings can be more effective. Having heavier wheels/tyres to take advantage of a principle with dubious benefits would be counter-productive.
 
A bicycle tire still balances itself a bit from spinning. Look at whenever somebody balances one on their head, they have to spin the wheel to keep up the gyro. I'm not trying to disprove caster I am just adding this in.
 
Very interesting explination homeforsummer, Ive never really thought about it in cars but you can feel the effect it can have just by spinning a bike tyre while your holding it and then trying to move it side to side! ..... Runs off to wikipedia to read up more..
 
When the bike wheel is in the air, that's the gyroscopic effect you're feeling. When both wheels are on the ground, it's being kept upright by the caster effect of the rear wheel :)
 
The gyroscopic force of the front wheels is one force that helps stabilize the car while in a straight line on a smooth surface. Like Homeforsummer said, there are many forces acting on a front wheel that stem from suspension geometry and friction with the surface, so the gyroscopic force is difficult to isolate.

One time it can be felt is when heavier or lighter wheels are equipped on the car. Heavier steering effort and slower response is noticeable with heavier wheels, both because of the weight itself and the stronger gyro force preventing the wheel from turning. The opposite is noticeable with lighter wheels.
 
I always enjoy holding a rotary sander and feeling the gyroscopic effect of the heavy spinning motor, and how it tends to resist any movement left to right. But I'm also kind of a strange guy.
 
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