Help me become better at tuning.

[RikkiGT-R]

Doesn't appear to be a tuning sub-forum, so...

I've been playing these kind of games since the original Gran Turismo, but I've never quite understood tuning. I remember the episode of Top Gear when Richard Hammond was hypnotized and then tried to drive that Alpha (with hilarious results) - he explained afterward that it was akin to the fancy coffee machine they have in the TG offices; he hasn't a clue how to use it, it's just knobs and dials that he would randomly twiddle and think "oh I dunno" and that he couldn't make a coffee on it to save his life... well that's me with Forza Tuning.

What bothers me is that each explanation given in-game for each tuning category seems to negate itself at the end (of each explanation). If I follow the instructions exactly, then every single part that is tuneable will end up exactly central because any tuning that I alter is neutralised by the others.
I do realise that it's not like that, but that's how I feel when reading the explanations. I've spent 2 weeks trying to tune the Zonda C for Nürburgring, really just changing random parameters to see what happens, but because there are so many possible configurations it's not just trial and error, it's a lottery. Even if the springs alone had 300 different settings on either side, then that's 60,000 possible configurations. But they have way more than that. Out of frustration I set the springs to 200 (very soft) front and rear, and the car actually felt great compared to before. But it still isn't right, so I fiddle with other settings, which only make it worse (and I don't know why). I pushed the anti-roll bars to the maximum of 40 front and rear, which also felt great but, again, I don't know why... change anything else and the car is totally unbalanced.

I've just spent another 6 hours today tuning and test driving without completing a single lap. I get close [to a solid tune] through sheer luck, but then it gets away from me and, again, I don't know why. I can't take a car for a test drive and think "hmmm... the car is understeering at corner entry, I need to alter A and B..." and then change those parameters and rectify the issue. I just know the car isn't right, so I go to the tuning menu, read some of the explanations, fiddle with the settings, and still haven't a clue what I'm doing. Even though I am aware that lowering the front anti-roll bar increases oversteer, I don't know if I should also increase the rear and even if I do (increase or lower) I see no discernible difference anyway. But then several other parameter require altering to rebalance the car. Or... something

I don't know what to do.

 

[limepie]

Well, its definitely a black art to be sure. Very few people are 100 percent able to just pull tunes that are good from thin air. You're shooting for a bunch of different things at the same time, so its going to be complicated.

Identifying problems and solutions can be arduous if you don't go about it methodically. When trouble shooting always try to change one thing at a time. If you don't fix your problem, move whatever setting you've changed back to where it was before. Then try changing something else. That way if you do manage to fix something, you'll know exactly how you did it.

It helps to be specific about your problems as well. "this car oversteers" is a problem with a dozen different solutions. But "This car oversteers in mid corner when it hits any sort of bump" is a problem with far far fewer solutions.

Another strategy is to just kind of have "simplified" tuning options in your head. My shorthand is to mess with gears, anti-roll bars and spring/damper settings. Those particular things can be pretty universal and can get your car mostly to where it needs to be if you don't want to get too specific. Adjust your springs and dampeners together if you're going to go with this strategy, e.g. if you're adding 10 percent stiffer springs, stiffen your shocks by 10 percent as well. However, it sounds like you want to move beyond just the basics. If that's the case, ignore this paragraph.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

@limepie - yeah it's more about understanding what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. It's at a point now where I'm even deleting tunes that I've downloaded because I feel guilty setting leaderboard times in cars I'm only driving but didn't build.

@RPM Bibblefish makes some great tunes, many of which I've used and really enjoyed. Same goes for BAM Skyline (a favourite tuner of mine). The cars those guys tune drive exactly how I want cars to drive - not the fastest, but so responsive and stable. Bibblefish tuned a Mazda for Nürburgring that was genuinely glued to the road, you couldn't even lose control if you wanted to. I'm always aiming for that kind of "feel" but get nowhere near it really. I'd even go as far as saying that I know what each parameter does, I just don't know how to combine them to achieve the desired result and, as I said in my OP, the other parameters/variables neutralise the results of each other (in my mind) anyway. I'll set the anti-roll bars but I'll be fully aware I also need to alter something else (eg, the dampers), but I'm also thinking that by altering the dampers I'm undoing the work I just did with the anti-roll bars. Of course, I'll test drive and realise that it's actually a totally different outcome altogether

Trial and error, going round in circles, chasing my tail, getting nowhere.

 

[Dopplegagger]

You will eventually understand how your car is effected when tuning, through trial and error; but that will take a frustratingly long time.

I'm finding that Forza seems to respond largely the same as some PC titles, so look at some tuning guides for understanding how the car will respond. One such guide is from Chris Haye. He recently shared a series on car setup, that will be very helpful in tuning. I can't share a link because I am away from my PC. But his YouTube name is Chris Haye. And the series I am referring to are his most recent videos.

For me, I'm interested in mechanical grip, and knowing what to adjust. I'm finding his guide to be extremely helpful.

Again, even though this is geared towards Assetto Corsa, IRacing, PCars 2 and what not. But it does tell one the basics in terms of what, does what.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I'm interested in mechanical grip

This is exactly what I'm interested in, almost entirely. I'll look up his videos right this second, thank you.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

@Dopplegagger - that Chris Haye fella is some kind of Sim Racing Savant. Subbed and totally hooked.

 

[AlienDeathRay]

Well stated. In the beginning in the early days of Forza and Gran Turismo, I started to make some tunes specifically for cars. But it got so complicated as you go from car to car and track to track. I got lazy and simply just added more assists to compensate so that I could drive any car in any situation. Then came online community and shared paints and tunes. Now it's so easy to just load someone elses tune. I really don't find many tunes out there to choose from. It's gotten to the point where there are only a few tuners who everybody just takes. I would really like to know what kind of changes were made, and what separates one from another. Just because everybody runs with Raceboy77 and BAM Skyline tunes doesn't mean it's what I am looking for.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Honestly, tuning is not this mythical black art some think it is, the build is way more important.

When it comes to tuning you just need one or two set ups per drive train, that's it. 99 times out of 100 those set ups will work on all the cars. Those that don't you need to fiddle about with but for the most part the set up you've got on one rwd car will work on another.

I'll post my set ups later today so you can see how i tune but it really is just finding something that works for you. As i said, the build is way more important. A decent tune saves 10ths were as a decent build is worth seconds.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

I'll start with RWD (front engine rwd). This has been around for ages, quite a few top guys run a similar set up. I didn't create it, can't remember who did to be honest but it works. Should be noted that this for those that don't use tcs, no idea how it performs when traction is turned on

tyres - anything between 28-30, honestly doesn't matter but i usually go with 30 for stock, 29 for street, 28 for sport/race so as to get roughly 32 once warm. However, for speed tracks (i.e. Le man) i like the temp around 33/34 once warm.

gears - really down to personal preference, no secret formula for gears.

Alignment - Again, personal preference but i tend to go with the following.
Camber front - anything between -1.6 to - 2.5
Camber rear ) anything between -1.4 to - 2.3
Always have more negative camber on the front than the rear

Toe 0.0/-0.2 (for grip tracks) 0.0/0.0 (for speed tracks)

Caster - 5.7 to 6.0 (for grip tracks) 6.5 to 7.0 (for speed tracks)

ARB's - Start at max for the front and min for the rear then adjust inwards for feel. The sweet spot for for me is usually around 25 to 30 front and 8 to12 rear

Springs - Personal preference based on how hard/soft you want the suspension but ensure the front is stiffer than the rear by roughly 100lbs

Rebound and bump. This part looks weird but it works. Set the rebound to min and the bump to max then just like with the roll bars adjust inwards. The max/min setting should be ok but i find the sweet spot for me to be 3.0 for rebound and 11.0 for bump

Aero - For RWD i tend to go max for grip tracks and min for full on speed tracks

Brakes - i like high pressure with force to the rear so have mine set up as 52% to rear and pressure at 155%

Diff - For me, anything between 40 to 70 for the accel and 8 to 30 for the decel. I start with 40/8 then tune from there. If the car shows signs of lift off oversteer I'll increase the decel, if the car slides to much when i put the power down then I'll decrease the accel

Think that pretty much covers it, i use that same formula for all RWD cars then fine tune where needed. The ARB, Springs and Damping settings may look a little weird. You can get the same times by changing these settings to a more conventional set up i.e softer front than rear. But it won't be as stable and will need more throttle control

Should also be noted that if you convert any of the SUV's to RWD (which you will need to do in order to make them competative) then the damping in this set up will make the car bounce all over the place if you touch a curb. To compensate you will need to increase the rebound

 

[RikkiGT-R]

@RPM Bibblefish

 

[AlienDeathRay]

And that's why he's usually at the top of our leaderboards. Well done! @RPM Bibblefish I have downloaded several of your tunes. And as a matter of fact you should have recently gotten a bonus from someone "liking" one of your tunes. Can't recall which at the moment. But it came up last night. Thanks!

 

[Dopplegagger]

Something that's bugging me. I'm trying to build a car for C Class, and everything I build is slow compared to the rest of the pack. I suppose weight and tire compound may be what's holding me back, but when I make the car heavier and use less grippy tires, my car is still slow, and now it handles like poo.

So like most I assume that it's the car, and move on to something better in the speed and handling departments; but then, I see it. The car I was struggling to get together, is kicking butt and taking names when another player is using it. What in the of ever living name of Mum-Ra!

I'll share the details of the car later, and even list out my tuning g settings. I wanna know, where I should look to make it faster.

 

[PJTierney]

Enjoy.

 

[Dopplegagger]

Thanks. I do have some consistency issues on some of the tracks, so I test and tune on tracks I know very well. The ones I dont know, like Dubai, I have to set aside time to learn them better.

I'm going to dive into your guide PJ. I did come across it a few times in the past, but now I am ready to listen.

In light of PJTierney's post, I am going to evaluate the tune on my own. But the car, parts and tuning will be shared. Give me some time to get it sorted out.

 

[vinz7531]

My test /tune track is the COTA.
Hairpin at the start (and middle sector)
fast S shaped curves in the first sector
Straight lines and heavy breaking in the middle sector
then a mix of medium to slow speed corners during the final sector
There's also a few breaking zones in corners in first and last sector.

For me a good tune in COTA results in good handling on other tracks.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Enjoy.

Invaluable.

My test /tune track is the COTA.
Hairpin at the start (and middle sector)
fast S shaped curves in the first sector
Straight lines and heavy breaking in the middle sector
then a mix of medium to slow speed corners during the final sector
There's also a few breaking zones in corners in first and last sector.

For me a good tune in COTA results in good handling on other tracks.

That's a good point. I despise COTA simply because it is all kinds of circuits rolled into one... it makes sense then that a car tuned well for that circuit would work on many more. Will use this recommendation.

 

[vinz7531]

Hello,

In regards to tuning, I am a beginner, but I found a simple tune that made most cars better (for me)
I dislike car with understeer (or unstable rear end), I cannot go fast enough in high speed curves, I have wheel spin when accelerating out of a corner (due to rear wheel sliding during the cornering), I also easily loose control when breaking while not perfectly in straight line.

My solution to get a more stable rear is simple (surely a better tuner will have better result):
- get a race suspension:
set the front springs to around 80%-90% stiffness - It helps having a more precise direction
set the rear springs to around 50% - 70% stiffness - if the rear springs are softer that the front ones the rear will grip more. Some cars need bigger difference than others.
Keep the anti roll bars rather soft around 25% front only very slightly harder than rear
- If still needed after spring tuning due to wheel spin while exiting corners, get race differential
If needed decrease slightly (between 3 - 10 points) the differential for acceleration

that's very basic, but gives good results for me
cars I saved with that:
- Holden comodore supercar
- mercedes C63 (2012) black edition FE
- Chevy SS FE
- Most SUV
- porsche 911 RSR (2017)
- Buggies

You surely already know that, but it may help someone


EDIT: Look on Youtube for tutorials on how to setup cars and suspensions by youtuber Viperconcept. It proves the above to be un optimized. I've yet to try his advices.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

@RPM Bibblefish - I want to personally thank you for doing precisely what I requested in the OP - made me better at tuning.

I have tuned so many cars now, as well as creating some fairly popular tunes for the community. I used your template to begin with, and then tinkered around from there. My Hardcore Record that I talked about on my other thread (X-Class @ Le Mans) is one such example, I'm able to take basically any car now and make it feel good to me - that's all I've ever wanted. I truly appreciate your posts in this thread.

Having said that, I don't suppose you could do a similar post about AWD cars? As much as I prefer RWD anyway, and drive those almost exclusively, there are occasions I'd like to tune a nice Skyline or Lambo but I'm not quite there and would like to know what the difference is compared to RWD, if there are some pointers you could give me perhaps. TIA.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Sure

AWD

Alignment - i tend to increase the negative camber a bit, 2.2 - 3.0 for the front then slightly less for the rear e.g 1.9 - 2.7

Toe - 0.0/0.0

Caster - i reduce slightly, 5.3 - 5.5

Basically just reverse the roll bar and spring settings so that the front is now softer than the rear.

bump and rebound leave the same.

Aero - max front for turn in, then depending on the class start with the rear at minimum and increase until stable.
A good rule of thumb is if the car is pushing through the corners, no matter what you do with roll bars and springs, then lower the rear. If it gets a little wobbly then increase it,
i go min up to c class then start raising it. I rarely have the rear at max though as it murders the top end on already heavier cars. I might do it for the really small twisty tracks or a short power track but that would be it

Diff. Front - Accel 100\0, For the rear, use same method as rwd i.e. Go as high as poss for accel without it sliding too much. For decel go as low as possible until the lift off oversteer starts. A little is good for turn in but too much and the car just wants to swap ends

for the split of where the power is sent i never have it less than 70% to the rear

Everything else i leave the same as it is for rwd, think that about covers it

 

[RikkiGT-R]

@RPM Bibblefish - thank you

Actually is a good bit of difference then, any wonder I'm struggling with the AWDs.

EDIT: My GT-R Black Edition FE is finally drivable. At long last.

EDIT (2): And the Lamborghini Veneno… this is amazing.