Help needed on my Honda Integra Type R Touring Car

[Furinkazen]

Right, i'm campaigning the Integra Type R Touring Car in my TOCA Touring Car Series online, but struggling (And so are my teammates) with excessive tyre wear. It's FF drivetrain is resulting in it destroying it's tyres. At Tsukuba we were running 18 lap races, all driver aids off, Racing Hard tyres, but after 10 laps we struggled with tyre wear with laps dropping from 1.00.0 dead to 1.03.0 by the end of the race. Can anyone help?

I reckon it's partially down to suspension settings. If I could make the rears wear out a little taking the stress of the front that would help.

 

[pampsu]

every time you hear tyres screaming they wear down. So note when tyres are stressed and deal with the biggest issue first. Theres some valuable info in manual section 15 for tuning ff too. Share your settings if you like to get more discussion.

 

[Furinkazen]

Settings:

BODY/CHASSIS:
Aerodynamics Front 20 Rear 20


LSD:
(Front values only)
Initial Torque 5
Accelaration Sensitivity 5
Braking Sensitivity 5

Suspension:
Ride Height: -21 -21
Spring Rate 9.0 8.3
Dampers Extension 1 1
Dampers Compression 1 1
Anti Roll Bars 7 7

Wheel Alignment
Camber Angle 0.5 0.5
Toe Angle 0.00 0.20

Brakes
Brake Balance 5 4


This set up is good for me, dialling out understeer. However I do have to brake earlier to prevent locking the wheels.

Any thoughts guys?

 

[GrimSinn]

Tune your LSD, dropping them to lowest setting is no good and waist the LSD.

Get much more aggressive with your camber most cars in stock trim have higher camber then that and they haven't been slaaaaaamed to -21. Maybe that's a lil low (tis for me) lowering the car usually means increasing the negative camber.

I also find your dampers to be very soft, don't see why so low, especially when your sway bars are firm, might be the soft spring rate. I'd stiffen the springs while bringing down the stiffness of the sway bars. Certainly increasing the dampners at all 4 corners.

Ohh and reducing the brake sensitivity will help those lock ups under braking.

 

[Furinkazen]

Tune your LSD, dropping them to lowest setting is no good and waist the LSD.

Get much more aggressive with your camber most cars in stock trim have higher camber then that and they haven't been slaaaaaamed to -21. Maybe that's a lil low (tis for me) lowering the car usually means increasing the negative camber.

I also find your dampers to be very soft, don't see why so low, especially when your sway bars are firm, might be the soft spring rate. I'd stiffen the springs while bringing down the stiffness of the sway bars. Certainly increasing the dampners at all 4 corners.

Ohh and reducing the brake sensitivity will help those lock ups under braking.

Will that affect handling much? The cars handles good for me at the moment and I don't want to radically alter it...

 

[GrimSinn]

Will that affect handling much? The cars handles good for me at the moment and I don't want to radically alter it...

If anything it should improve the handling, I think greatly so.

Keep in mind when tuning it's give and take. For the most part Unstable cars are faster then stable ones if you can handle it.

I like to think of fly-by-wire jet fighters. They are incredibly unstable and without the computer managing the controls they would simply fall out of the sky. Before FBW they needed to be stable and self level. However being unstable allows for sharper cornering crisper direction changes and the ability to do maneuvers never possible on a stable platform only since the computer can handle it.

In driving cars it's basically the same thinking. Stable is easier to drive, unstable is much more difficult but if done right and driven by somebody who can handle it, unstable should be faster.

Ohh "unstable" does not mean badly tuned suspension, but rather a well tuned stable set up vs a well tuned unstable set up.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I have an Integra RM tune posted in my garage. See the link below in my signature.

 

[Furinkazen]

I have an Integra RM tune posted in my garage. See the link below in my signature.

This isn't the RM, this is the Touring car

 

[pampsu]

I hope I can help with my advices:
I'm not very good tuner but sometimes I find good settings so keep that in mind

Brakes
Brake Balance 5 4

0 2 - to save front tyres

LSD:
(Front values only)
Initial Torque 5
Accelaration Sensitivity 5
Braking Sensitivity 5

10 / 15 / 30 not so aggressive while giving gas coming out of corner

Suspension:
Ride Height: -21 -21
Spring Rate 9.0 8.3
Dampers Extension 1 1
Dampers Compression 1 1
Anti Roll Bars 7 7

-20 -10 for more oversteer
8 10 More grip to front
5 5
2 2 This type of settings are generally recommended in the manual
4 3 High stabilizers cause understeer but saves tyres

Wheel Alignment
Camber Angle 0.5 0.5

Try higher values eg. 2.1 2.9 Changing rear value might help keeping control while breaking. Rear is losing grip for some reason.

Toe Angle 0.00 0.20

I think this is cool

 

[pampsu]

Oh and fixing your tranny will help clearing out unwanted wheel spin to save tyres.

 

[KingSakery]

You can tune your FF-Car to have more oversteer.
I would do following:
Stiffen the springrate front and rear. The rear should be stiffer then the front
=> Corner willingness will increase

Ride height at the rear should be a bit higher
=> same effect as spring rate

Dampers extension: should be stiffer than the compression
Furthermore stiffen the rear a bit more to get a bit more oversteer.

Anti Roll-bares: front 4 rear 5/6 to get a Tendency of oversteer (might be the better choice then stiffen the rear Damper compression)

Rear Toe: -0.20 front too (its just my preference; just set the rear to -0.20 and leave the front at 0)

Camber: front 2.0 rear 2.5


Just try some of my tipps or combine 2 or 3 or all.
Just try to do different things going back to your Setup afterwards is still possible

Edit: This are all things I have observed trying to get faster Laps in FF cars => no guarantee that it will work for you (but I hope it will )

 

[oopssorryy]

I would fix your LSD. The difference between a nuked diff and a tuned diff can gain you at least 0.5 of a lap, while making the car better to drive. And jack up your dampers, I woud at least put them at 4EX/5CP, and then if your having problems with turn in I would decrease your front Anti Roll Bar. I also would put some toe out on the rear tires, no more than -0.20. This will help your car handle more like a RWD car and kill some understeer that's so prominent in FFs. Then you'll have to take a look at your Brake Bias, I would try something like 7/3. After that take a look at your transmission, when set properly you can rid you car of a lot of wheel spin and save your tires.

 

[CyKosis1973]

Whilst I agree with a lot here, I don't agree that your suspension bias should be to the rear. IMO it should be toward the front. Keep your SR higher than the rear. Keep your front around where it is now, and drop the rear by at least 2.0.

Whilst dampers should by stronger on EXT than COMP, again I think your bias should be to the front. Use them to assist with the SR in keeping the front from lurching up and down under braking and acceleration.

Use the anti-roll bar to keep the rear flat, bump it right up. Keep it weak on the front. Let the springs and dampers take care that end.

The whole premise is controlling the front end and keeping the rear light and nimble. Reducing nose dive into corners will not only improve your braking distances, but it'll save tyres. Likewise reducing the amount of weight transfer to the rear on exit of a corner will save tyres and allow you to apply more power. Lifting the rear RH will also assist with keeping the weight forward and controlled.

Minimise use of toe, particularly on the front. Whilst it can be a useful tool to help turn-in, cornering and braking, too much will burn tyres. Use camber instead.

This is all obviously my opinion, and what I've said may not transfer well to the car you've got. But I have battled with FF cars for a long time. I've raced other people's too. Don't want to sound like a love-struck groupie, but you'd do well to look at this build - RKM Motorsport’s Civic Type R Turbo. I get heckled by my buddies whenever I break this car out. It's a complete beast and eats similarly spec'd WRC homologations.

Good look with this car, I'm a big fan of FFs and love to see them beating the 4 & RWD boys...

{Cy}

 

[Furinkazen]

I'm going to try all these. I'll post back with results! Thanks!

 

[KingSakery]

@Cykosis: I will try the RKM tune, maybe your right and I would be faster with those tips

@MrMulsanne: Your results ?? I don´t want to rush you

 

[Furinkazen]

@Cykosis: I will try the RKM tune, maybe your right and I would be faster with those tips

@MrMulsanne: Your results ?? I don´t want to rush you

Altering suspension ruins the feel of the car for me, but I may be on to something with camber... My Shelby Cobra had oversteer everywhere until I altered the camber and now it's better... If I reverse it with the understeering Integra, I may be on to something...

 

[KingSakery]

If you don´t want to change Suspension then try following:
Downforce: Front max rear minimum
=> "looser" rear => a bit more oversteer (hopefully )

Camber and Toe settings can help to
Camber front 2.5 rear 2.0-2.5
Toe: -0.20 front and rear => better corner willingness at both axes

LSD: (this is what I usually use)
5/10/5

works fine for me
Maybe put some extra weight on the rear to force a rearend weight distribution ?? (haven´t tried this)

 

[Furinkazen]

If you don´t want to change Suspension then try following:
Downforce: Front max rear minimum
=> "looser" rear => a bit more oversteer (hopefully )

Camber and Toe settings can help to
Camber front 2.5 rear 2.0-2.5
Toe: -0.20 front and rear => better corner willingness at both axes

LSD: (this is what I usually use)
5/10/5

works fine for me
Maybe put some extra weight on the rear to force a rearend weight distribution ?? (haven´t tried this)

How does changing the LSD Affect your car? I can never understand it...

And if it helps I'm at High Speed Ring doing 1:14.1's... that a good time?

EDIT: few more changes and I'm capable of a 1:13.8

EDIT 2@ now 1:13.4

 

[oopssorryy]

Read This It might help simplify some things about the LSD for you.

 

[KingSakery]

I have read the Thread too but I´m not wiser than before

Well I tried allot with the LSD settings, but 5/10/5 brought me to a point where I can say: It works with every FF Car.
For me it has the least amount of understeer => I´m happy.
Regardless of changing Initial Torque or the Acc it gets worse (huge amount of understeer at Corner exit and this is what I hate). Sometimes you will get smoke from the Corner inside Wheel, but for me its good.

 

[Dragonistic]

Smoke from the inside wheel is exactly what needs avoiding as there's a tyre wear problem present. I'm admittedly unpractised with tuning FFs, haven't done a proper build in a while, but what advice I can offer is adjusting your driving lines can help keep the tyres drastically. Some corners you can afford to lose a tenth or so (hairpins particularly), take a wider turn in so when you do hit the power, which may well be earlier then before, you're applying less steering angle.

Tuning affects tyre wear for sure, but so does your driving style, try to be smooth and when you get the chance don't be afraid to sacrifice some time to keep the tyres going. Keep in mind the tyres only have so much grip available to do what you ask of them, when you settle down into a race try to do more braking whilst going straight (rather then turning in on the brake where possible) and try to take smooth lines.