Herman Tilke

[JohnBM01]

Mostly known for his designs of Formula One circuits, the reason why I didn't put this in the Formula One forums is because (1) this isn't about Formula One, and (2) his designs influenced the Fuji 2005 circuit featured in Gran Turismo 4. Some say his designs are horrible, while some think it's great in the interest of safety.

To know what others think about Herman Tilke's designs as well as commentary on newer F1 tracks, here are some links I've provided:

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=F1...motorstv.com/forums/read.php?f=11&i=102&t=102
http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1932&pid=23800&st=20&#entry23800 (WARNING: strong language)

What do you make of his track designs? What do you make of his designs vs. the previous layout? This thread is about Herman Tilke, so shoot.

As a bit of a fact about Tilke, this German was a former racer. I want to say he's done touring car racing, but I'm not sure.

 

[[FPV]Rusty]

I think some of his designs do work, Malaysia is unique, & i like it very much, lathough for a spectator you cant see alot of the track becuase their is a massive grandstand inbetween two infield straights. Fuji, well, what can I say. I love Fuji 90's, the best of the incarnations in GT4, Tilke took it and turned it into a farce, I find it uninspiring & boring to race on, although we'll have to wait to watch the F1's what its like. My favorite parts of hte '90's track was the irregular shaped first turn, no one perfect line in my opinion but a few. The first left right chicane, chicanes always fun, & the final B-turn, a highly skilled driver can make up alot of time if he pushed hard through there. Also the way they flattened out the descent after the wide left turn that tightened just enough to make it difficult to get on the loud pedal early. Its got nothing resembling a single interesting, inspiring or challenging corner in the whole track, Definately not a winner for me

 

[Blake]

Some of Tilke's work is horrible and some is brilliant, in fact I would suggest most of it is. I much prefer his original designs over the tracks he has 'changed', though some of those (e.g. Hockenheim) are very cool tracks.

Hockenheim is a brilliant circuit. The old cicuit wasn't very technical, I think what Hockenheim is now is much better than what it used to be, however, the old cicuit had alot of character and it is somewhat dissapointing not to have the cars shooting into the forest like they used to.

Old:

New:

I've never been a fan of Nurburgring, and niether of the circuits (old or new) appeal to me, that technical section at the start of the lap is pretty pointless to me, it makes an already bland track more-so.

Old:

New:

I'm fairly partial to the old Fuji, but I like the new one. It has alot of the character of the old Fuji (the long straight and the hairpin) but the technical section at the end is well suited to todays needs, I think he did a very good job with Fuji. I would love to see F1s race around the new Fuji, but not at the expense of Suzuka!

Old:

New:

The Bahrain circuit is brilliant, I love it. Long straights, heavy braking, corners that suddenly tighten up, it's a very nice circuit. It's great for F1, both races there have been good with some good passing. Driving it (in F1 games) is very fun IMO, one of my favourite tracks. But I'm glad the design was revised several times, the origional two designs weren't as good.

Design #1:

Design #2:

Current Layout:

Sepang is a good track, nice long straights, some technical sections, and many corners that can be taken flat out or close to it. Racing isn't usually great but there is often a bit of something happening.

I'm not really sure about Turkey, I'll have to wait until I see a race there.

I don't like Shanghai to drive on, I'm not one for heaps of 'round' corners, if that makes any sense. The race there was nothing special from memory and I'm not a fan of the circuit.

That's all the circuits I can think of that Tilke has puts his hands too, but no doub there are many more.

Blake

 

[Sportscar_Rob]

Herman Tilke knows to appreciate good tracks , he races on the Nordschleife in the German Endurance Championship.

The problem is that they dont want him to build tracks like the Nordschleife , boring F1 Safety circuits are needed and Herman builds them , wheater he likes it or not.

 

[JohnBM01]

In talking about character, Hockenheim is perhaps the biggest example. This used to be a track about high speed and low-to-mid speed braking. I sort of consider this as a German Le Mans. As a racer, you make your mark on this track if you have pure speed and excellent control in the corners. This circuit had a scary appearance, since its layout looked more like a knife. Now, you turn a high-speed driver's track into just another mere European circuit. So I can imagine why people say that Tilke's designs are damn near horrible. I agree on tracks being distinguishable, usually maintaining the personality of the track configurations before it. This is why I didn't like Fuji's 2005 configuration. Play GT4. The 1980s and 1990s configurations kept up the fast, but tricky nature of the track. Now it looks like an F1 track rather than a course unique and dear to Japan.

I cannot comment about Spa-Francorchamps all that much because I'm not too experienced on this track past and present. I've seen some past races from Eau Rouge to that super-slow section en route to the Start/Finish line. GTPlanet, you may remember a topic I did called "Inspirations in Track Design" or something similar. I guess sometimes, it's not about any real inspiration. It's inspiration that distinguishes one track from another. The world cannot have 20 Donnington Parks. We can't have 10 Brnos.

 

[Blake]

There is no "super-slow" section in Spa, the only slow corner is bus-stop, but other than that the circuit is very fast.

I agree that many of Tilke's modifications have taken the character from many tracks, but I do not agree that we have "20 Donnington Parks", circuits nowadays do seem to lack inspiration, but I think each track has qualities which make sure they're not another Donnington Park.

Blake

 

[TheCracker]

I personally hate all the Tilke circuits - what he did to Hockenheim is an absolute crime.

Having said that, i know he is extreamly restrained with what he can design in terms of safety, spectator access, hospitality etc etc. For TV viewers these wide, bland, flat tracks with stacks of run-off areas make for a boring spectacle - especially since contemporary F1 aerodynamics make close racing near-impossible.

All the classic race circuits of the past are mostly either ex-airfield tracks (Silverstone, Snetterton, Sebring etc) or based on old roads (Spa, Le Mans, The Ring etc) unfortunatly tracks like this will never be built again.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

I'm with Cracker. Anyone who saw the battle between Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher at Hockenheim 1999 where they were side by side down the whole back straight and SPLIT Ricardo Zonta going into the braking zone knows that Hockenheim was meant to be fast and wild, not the flat abomination it is now.

Tilke bites the big one for taking away our chance to see battles like that in the future.

 

[JohnBM01]

I will say this. The Bahrain and Shanghai circuits are lovely in terms of surroundings. The Bahrain circuit is more like a jewel in the desert. The Shanghai looks like a great challenge for the JGTC, much less F1. Now, how are the newer configurations safer than in the past? From what I seen, some of the Tilke renditions appear to be more about stop-and-go driving rather than pure flat out fun. And contrary to actual track safety, the long straights on Hockenheim emphasized bravery and thrill riding. For Shanghai, I can imagine that after Turn 1, there can probably be a straight that goes straight into Turn 4, or what would have been Turn 2 would be a chicane going straight to Turn 4. I believe an F1 car can beautifully race around almost any turn. Problem is, the Tilke-designed configurations look like the turns were designed to completely disallow powerful cars to actually put that power to good use. I'm asking myself, is making an 11-turn course have 32 corners and little to have fun with on the track considered safe?

Regardless, it seems more like hate it or love it, but more hate than love it.

 

[JohnBM01]

I actually like Herman Tilke's designs in terms of the cosmetics of the track. I was watching some highlights of MotoGP's 125 race in Shanghai, and despite the rainy conditions, the track is actually quite dazzling to me. The race course, however, wouldn't really seem fun, so I agree with you about Shanghai, Blake mate. Then too, Fuji 2005 featured in Gran Turismo 4, looks pretty nice, even if the configuration doesn't.

So maybe from a cosmetic standpoint, Tilke's work is amazing. From a configuration standpoint, uh... no. Do you agree?

 

[Blake]

Well I've done some research on Tilke's tracks lately (ok, played a hell of alot of games with Tilke tracks in them ), and I have changed my standpoint on much of what I said before.

My view of Fuji has changed alot also, I'm now madly in love with the old configoration (pictured above), however, I think Tilke's tracks are good given todays requirements (stop-go type circuits, no fast flowing corners, all about SAFETY).

The world of motorsport in Europe pretty much revolves around F1, the only reason so many tracks have been changed is because of the requirements of F1. I mean of all 19 tracks on this years F1 calandar only one circuit is in roughly the same configuration as it was back in the 50s, Monaco. Every other track has either been changed over the years or hasn't been raced at before this era of safety.

This is all because of F1, I mean series like DTM could still safely race around Nurbugring Nordschlief and other historic venues that F1 either no longer includes due to safety reasons.

So I really think Tilke shouldn't be blamed for circuits like this, rather F1 going into safe mode.

Personally I think the cars (and drivers) could survive at many older circuits now, I mean safety measures are alot better than they used to be, but I think F1 isn't going to get out of the safety spiral, it's a pitty because the racing is deminished because of it.

In terms of cosmetics his tracks are great, Shanghai is something special, especially with the bridges over the start-finish straight.

Blake

 

[JohnBM01]

I decided to revive this thread to talk about some of the work Tilke has done now. His latest work is in getting South Korea some Formula One racing action. I do sort of wonder if other series would be willing to race on a track like this. It was said that Champ Car wanted to race in South Korea a few years ago at this park or something. Maybe they'd be interested in this new track. New track? Yeah. It's called the Korean International Circuit. More information here courtesy of e-Tracks: < http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/News/stories/news_id235.html >.

What do you all think of this Tilke "masterpiece?"

 

[Blake]

I think it&#8217;s an interesting concept. However, I can&#8217;t see it being good for racing. The circuit is just way too tight, I mean most of the way around the circuit you&#8217;re driving into ever tighter corners with no long straights in-between them. There are maybe 3 possible overtaking opportunities.

As I said, though, interesting concept. 👍

 

[Pupik]

Having said that, I know he is extremely restrained with what he can design in terms of safety, spectator access, hospitality etc etc. For TV viewers these wide, bland, flat tracks with stacks of run-off areas make for a boring spectacle - especially since contemporary F1 aerodynamics make close racing near-impossible.

The biggest problem: FIA rules dictate the sorts of circuits we get nowadays. The radical changes made during and just after the 1994 season put a final nail into challenging (and dangerous) corner design. I think his tracks are quite probably a nice challenge to drive on, but that doesn't always translate into good racing. However, the Istanbul Circuit is quite an impressive job; great use of the natural terrain, which mimics corners from Grand Prix tracks of yore. Shanghai and Bahrain aren't all that bad a design either, but they do have a bit of a generic atmosphere compared to the "classic" circuits of the past. Now, it's hard to distinguish one bit of track from another, without a wide shot.

However, it's not all Tilke's fault; Mickey Mouse circuits like Nivelles-Baulers, the "new" Nurburgring (my least favorite track), and the street circuit craze of the 1980s (mostly in America, sadly) were some very unexciting tracks, offering little challenge to the drivers and very little overtaking and dicing for the fans.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I agree safety should be paramount, but not at the expense of racing. The drivers know what they are doing. If they didn't, they wouldn't be racing. Yes, there has to be safety measures in place because accidents can get very bad, very quickly, but Tilke's designs all follow the same formula: long straights followed by tight corners (but admittedly, Istanbul has all the makings of a great track and Sepang is excellent). A little variety every now and again wouldn't hurt.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

I'm with Cracker. Anyone who saw the battle between Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher at Hockenheim 1999 where they were side by side down the whole back straight and SPLIT Ricardo Zonta going into the braking zone knows that Hockenheim was meant to be fast and wild, not the flat abomination it is now.

Tilke bites the big one for taking away our chance to see battles like that in the future.

No, that was at Spa, at the top of Kemmel, which Tilke has not worked on.

Hermann Tilke has worked out what is required to enable F1 cars to overtake each other, and that is: slow corner into long straight into slow corner. Compare, if you will, Barcelona with new-Hockenheim. There's a heap of passing at Hockenheim because turn 2 is now very slow, and leads via a bend (not a corner) into a hairpin. Barcelona's long-straight follows a fast corner where following is impossible. Also, have you noted that there's more overtaking into the second chicane at Monza than the first? Check the previous corner for explanation of this.

As an aside, it baffles me that it took so long for someone to twig this, given that the formula is demonstrated every damn year in Montreal...

So basically, what Tilke's trying to do is build that combination into the amount and type of land he's given (this is why there's no 1km straight at Turkey), and then he tries to work an element of the national culture into the track layout. This is because he has realised that the rest of the lap is just "beauty shots" while you're waiting for the cars to get back to the overtaking zones. He also has to figure out the drainage, the camera sightings, the timing beam locations, the pit garages (with size, number, entry and exit).

I think that he gets a lot of unfair criticism. His circuits seem to be facsimiles of each other because they're designed to a formula, but he does very well at working that into a viable proposition. And how often have his circuit projects been late? Exactly...

He does deserve a slagging for Fuji, but his redesign of Hockenheim transformed it into one of the more exciting races to watch. Sepang is fun to drive, attractive to watch and produces good racing, Bahrain is excellent, as is Turkey, and Shanghai will be excellent too once it beds in a little.

 

[Duke]

Did Tilke do Suzuka? Because I truly dislike that track. It seems to have no natural rythym and appears to be a kit of stock pieces that are simply assembled in a way that connects the ends, kind of like you'd build a slot car track if you randomly grabbed bits out of the box.

I'm not an F1 fan - at least not modern F1 - because I much much prefer momentum racing to point-n-squirt, which is what modern F1 has become. So perhaps it's this bias that keeps me from liking a track others seem to love.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Suzuka is not a Tilke design AFAIK. And Suzuka&#180;s demise from the F1 venues is a really sad loss. Suzuka was one of the last true "drivers tracks" with a wonderful flow to it. Now only Spa will remain. I really hope Bernie & Co. get their act together and get Suzuka back, and loose something else instead!
I can easily pick a few other tracks that are bland and boring, and one is a Tilke remake - N&#252;rburgring.

Otherwise I kind of like his designs. Especially Istanbul is amazing to watch. I can&#180;t believe how fast the F1 cars go through turn 8!

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Did Tilke do Suzuka? Because I truly dislike that track. It seems to have no natural rythym and appears to be a kit of stock pieces that are simply assembled in a way that connects the ends, kind of like you'd build a slot car track if you randomly grabbed bits out of the box.

I'm not an F1 fan - at least not modern F1 - because I much much prefer momentum racing to point-n-squirt, which is what modern F1 has become. So perhaps it's this bias that keeps me from liking a track others seem to love.

No, Suzuka was designed as a Honda test track in 1962 by John Hugenholtz. I see what you're saying about it being a kit of pieces, and I suppose that's not too syrprising given its primary role.

FWIW, I've never been good around that place in any game, but I love to watch it, and I think I'd be quick there in real life.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

It's always been my stance that aerodynamically upsetting the cars is what creates overtaking. By creating long stretches of mid-to-high speed running like at Monza and Spa, the cars are trimmed out and become unstable.

It becomes a test of mechanical grip, horsepower, and driver skill when the drivers are allowed to wring the cars' necks. I have no real issue with Tilke's long straights, or even his tight hairpins, but the ri-goddam-diculous sets of decreasing radius corners that upset the CHASSIS of the car are what most spoil the racing.

When the techs are forced to rely on an assortment of increasingly goofy looking wings to make up for lost lateral grip and unsettled suspensions, the cars can no longer run close together. It's one of the reasons I fully support the return to God's gift to motorsport: SLICK TIRES!

 

[Blake]

Did Tilke do Suzuka? Because I truly dislike that track. It seems to have no natural rythym and appears to be a kit of stock pieces that are simply assembled in a way that connects the ends, kind of like you'd build a slot car track if you randomly grabbed bits out of the box.

I'm not an F1 fan - at least not modern F1 - because I much much prefer momentum racing to point-n-squirt, which is what modern F1 has become. So perhaps it's this bias that keeps me from liking a track others seem to love.

I’m suprised you say that. Personally (and I’m not saying you’re wrong) I think Suzuka has a great natural rhythm. As F1 circuits go, it’s probably the most biased towards keeping your momentum going. Especially from First Curve through the S-Curves, up through Dunlop Curve and through Degner, and finally into the hairpin and jamming on the brakes.

It's always been my stance that aerodynamically upsetting the cars is what creates overtaking.

I think the key part of that sentence is that upsetting the cars is what creates overtaking. It doesn’t have to be aerodynamically (in fact, the fact that the air hitting the following car is so dirty and that these cars are so aero dependant is what is reducing overtaking), it can be a lack of mechanical grip (see wet races, barely any grip from the tyres, lots of overtaking), or any general car imbalance.

If the leading car is unbalanced in any way then the car behind can capitalise, but unless there is some sort of issue it is unlikely that there’ll be overtaking.

That’s why I want traction control to be banned (losing traction on corner exit really upsets cars), and I want full manual gearboxes back in (when you have a paddle box you can’t make a mistake…). The more control you give to the driver, the more opportunity there is for the really great drivers to shine through.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I think the key part of that sentence is that upsetting the cars is what creates overtaking. It doesn&#8217;t have to be aerodynamically (in fact, the fact that the air hitting the following car is so dirty and that these cars are so aero dependant is what is reducing overtaking), it can be a lack of mechanical grip (see wet races, barely any grip from the tyres, lots of overtaking), or any general car imbalance.

If the leading car is unbalanced in any way then the car behind can capitalise, but unless there is some sort of issue it is unlikely that there&#8217;ll be overtaking.

That&#8217;s why I want traction control to be banned (losing traction on corner exit really upsets cars), and I want full manual gearboxes back in (when you have a paddle box you can&#8217;t make a mistake&#8230. The more control you give to the driver, the more opportunity there is for the really great drivers to shine through.

I&#180;d rather see a single form of tyres. Treads should be used, and I mean real treads, not the ones currently used in F1. Have them use the same kind of tyre for all kinds of situations, be it rain, snow or dry conditions!
Such a scenario might get some of the "drivers tracks" back on the calendar. Sadly Tilke designs would become pretty much obsolete.

Or the opposite; More mechanical grip (IE slicks) and a radical reduction of aerodynamic grip. This would however most likely increase straightline speeds, and the Tilke tracks would have their hayday!

 

[JohnBM01]

Let it be known- Suzuka is one of the world's most wonderful race tracks. Not just Japan... the world. Drivers who raced it say it's a wonderful race track. Note that I said "one of" and not "the" in terms of great race tracks. So save your flaming against me in this respect. Tilke (to avoid censorship) "messed up" Fuji so that F1 cars can better suit it. I missed what Fuji 90s' provided in Gran Turismo 4 including the Fuji renditions in most other games (even the Pole Position series). It was a speedy race track with plenty of tricky corners and decreasing and increasing radius sections. A joy to drive. A b:censored: to try to make a comeback on if trailing. Only good for this move to Fuji is that the F1 drivers get to be in the shadow of Mt. Fuji, which is Japan's national symbol.

Most of you know I love Spa-Francorchamps. I've garnered great respect for it since racing it in "GTR" and in "ToCA Race Driver 3." I'd hate to see this course get chopped to bits like sushi. I usually say that F1, while a technological showcase, should be about the best drivers competing on the best tracks out there. All about the best tracks to go through a 90-minute or so event. The reason why I didn't make this an F1 thread is because this isn't necessarily an F1 discussion. It's about a track designer not extremely related. However, it's been his designs that fueled my interest to come up with this thread.

Speaking of which, I still think Hockenheim was much more fun when it was a blast through the forest into those slow corners. It was a German Circuit de la Sarthe (another track I hope Tilke doesn't screw up). Now it's a ho-hum track. If I wanted Tilke to get involved, it would be in designing my track without hurting the actual circuit design. Here's how I would do. My team and I would come up with a track to offer all sorts of things for racing fans and motorsports media. I would give Herman Tilke all the money he needs to make my track look as beautiful and as state-of-the-art as any world circuit should be. Hell, I could make a go-kart track and ask him to make it like a mini Formula 1 race track. You have to admit something about Tilke- some of the Fuji circuit... the Shanghai Circuit... Istanbul's track... Bahrain... BEAUTIFULLY-designed courses in terms of what's around you and with state-of-the-art facilities. But in terms of the race track itself, it's hit-and-miss. So if I were to employ Tilke... or let's say I wanted to build a Formula One race track to host the United States Grand Prix... right here in southeastern Texas. The ONLY thing I would have Tilke do is design the amenities around the course to make it a place people want to actually come to to see a race. My team and I would design the course itself. I would want the track to be presentable for a domestic and international audience. I'd want everything from NASCAR road racing to F1 to compete, and only Tilke would have the skill to design the course to be a great place for racing. This is what I would use him for. The rest is simple... DON'T... TOUCH... THE... TRACK... DESIGN!

Carry on, now.