High Definition hi-fi equipment.

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Hello, do you think this is the way forward with hi-fi or would the average listener ( me for instance ) not tell the difference ?.What are your thoughts on this.Would it be worth the money or not do you think ?.

Nath.
 
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Along with Hi-Fi, you need a pair of good speakers or headphones. The average listener will notice the differences in music and other audio.
 
What i mean is, the difference between cd and high def music :).Like the difference between a standard def tv and full HD.
 
What i mean is, the difference between cd and high def music :).Like the difference between a standard def tv and full HD.

Ahh, got it. I don't know all of the differences but I do know that CDs in some places sound better than digital formats. Same way with vinyl they have their quirks. Like the SD v HD comparisons Hi-Fi has clearer audio channels. Im sure someone can explain better than me.
 
I don't mean HDCD, i mean an internet enabled box with a harddrive that plays high def music.That coupled with a pre amp + a power amp or a normal integrated amp.Plus an internet ready radio with DAB+.All these could be connected with hdmi cables.
 
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Are you asking if music above the CD red book standard of 44.1khz and 16-bit is worth it? Well you could debate that for days, many would argue one way or the other. Personally I think an increased bit-depth makes more of a difference than frequency, given that most humans only hear to around 20khz. That doesn't mean we can't perceive and 'feel' frequency above that though but as I say, it's something audiophiles will debate.

So yes, I think with a good hardware setup you can certainly notice the difference between red-book CD and higher quality formats such as 96khz/24-Bit.
 
It depends on the audio, the biggest difference between 16 and 24bit is with highly dynamic music, even then it is questionable as to whether you will notice. Most modern music is not dynamic enough for there to be a difference, The way they are recorded/mastered will negate any difference.

I record music at 24bit 44khz, but after mastering the final file is down at 16bit. 24bit is worth it in the recording and mastering phase because of the headroom, but I'd bet that on listening nobody could tell the difference between the 16bit and 24bit recordings due to the nature of the music/mastering. Most studios are recording at 24/44 minimum these days, because there is no reason not to. But in almost every case the final product is 16/44.

A lot of new releases of old records on vinyl are taken from 24/48 or 24/96 remasters of the original analogue audio, but many of the vinyl re-releases/remasters from the 90s are taken from not so great 16bit remasters. A Vinyl record made from a 24bit remaster of the original analogue master is in my eyes a listening experience that the crappy 16bit 90s remasters cannot compare, but again more important is the quality of the master more than whether it is 16 or 24bit.

Pure analogue from a good system does have a certain feel in the dynamics about it, but original Vinyl unless kept in amazing conditions is going to be noisy. I have a pretty big collection of original analogue mastered Vinyl and while I love it the aging shows its signs and it is a little noisy.

Really speaking for most music, especially modern music a 320kbs 16bit mp3 is enough, especially if you're listening on anything other than exceptional hardware.
 
Thanks for that Bigbazz.So what you are saying is on hi-fi separates i more than likely won't tell the difference.That is all i needed to know mate cheers.
 
It depends on the audio, the biggest difference between 16 and 24bit is with highly dynamic music, even then it is questionable as to whether you will notice. Most modern music is not dynamic enough for there to be a difference, The way they are recorded/mastered will negate any difference.

I record music at 24bit 44khz, but after mastering the final file is down at 16bit. 24bit is worth it in the recording and mastering phase because of the headroom, but I'd bet that on listening nobody could tell the difference between the 16bit and 24bit recordings due to the nature of the music/mastering. Most studios are recording at 24/44 minimum these days, because there is no reason not to. But in almost every case the final product is 16/44.

A lot of new releases of old records on vinyl are taken from 24/48 or 24/96 remasters of the original analogue audio, but many of the vinyl re-releases/remasters from the 90s are taken from not so great 16bit remasters. A Vinyl record made from a 24bit remaster of the original analogue master is in my eyes a listening experience that the crappy 16bit 90s remasters cannot compare, but again more important is the quality of the master more than whether it is 16 or 24bit.

Pure analogue from a good system does have a certain feel in the dynamics about it, but original Vinyl unless kept in amazing conditions is going to be noisy. I have a pretty big collection of original analogue mastered Vinyl and while I love it the aging shows its signs and it is a little noisy.

Really speaking for most music, especially modern music a 320kbs 16bit mp3 is enough, especially if you're listening on anything other than exceptional hardware.


This 👍

I feel the most important factor lies with the quality of the original recording. I have a few well recorded 16/44 CD's that seem to sound just as good as 24/96 CD's, one from the Chesky label and the other from the Sheffield Labs label and my CD player does have the 24 bit DA converters to take advantage of them. I do admit though I have never compared the compared the same recording on the two different bit depths. I cant think of any examples of recordings that exist in both 16 and 24 bit. And SACD is something else altogether.


Thanks for that Bigbazz.So what you are saying is on hi-fi separates i more than likely won't tell the difference.That is all i needed to know mate cheers.

With good quality separates you would probably be able to tell the difference but you may not like the difference, sometimes revealing a bad recording's flaws can be downright unbearable...and I'd rather listen to it on a ghetto-blaster.
 
@Smoke&Slide In terms of Digital Audio Players, I have researched numerous DAPs.

There's the iBasso DX50, highly recommended from Head-Fi and it cost 257 USD (Including S&H). Then there's the upcoming Fiio X5. It has one of the latest Wolfson DACs available. The current price on it is To Be Announced. I'd advise to stay away from the AK100/120 ($600 - $1,200), for those are over priced bricks. Then there is the relatively cheaper and excellent sounding Sansa Fuze. I still own it and it's a very nice DAP for $30. I'll go deeper into detail for my interest in the DAPs I have selected.
 
I have a handful of 'HD' albums, mainly on Blu-Ray audio and whilst there is obviously the old issue of placebo effect I'm pretty certain on most of them I can notice the enhanced clarity. Nirvana In Utero for example was recently released in 96/24 format both online (HDtracks.com) and Blu-Ray audio and over the CD versions I can definitely notice a difference.

It certainly does depend on the music recorded though, sure. The Nevermind Blu-Ray audio doesn't sound that good at all because of the brickwall mastering.

This 👍 I have a few well recorded 16/44 CD's that seem to sound just as good as 24/96 CD's

24/96 CD? Huh? CDs are all 16/44, red book format. Do you mean SACD?
 
I have a handful of 'HD' albums, mainly on Blu-Ray audio and whilst there is obviously the old issue of placebo effect I'm pretty certain on most of them I can notice the enhanced clarity. Nirvana In Utero for example was recently released in 96/24 format both online (HDtracks.com) and Blu-Ray audio and over the CD versions I can definitely notice a difference.

It certainly does depend on the music recorded though, sure. The Nevermind Blu-Ray audio doesn't sound that good at all because of the brickwall mastering.



24/96 CD? Huh? CDs are all 16/44, red book format. Do you mean SACD?

Some cd's are upsampled at 96KHz/24bit, Rebecca Pidgeon's "The Raven" on the Chesky label is one example, not all CD players can take advantage of it though without the proper D/A converter. There is also a SACD release for the same album.
 
Some cd's are upsampled at 96KHz/24bit, Rebecca Pidgeon's "The Raven" on the Chesky label is one example, not all CD players can take advantage of it though without the proper D/A converter. There is also a SACD release for the same album.

No that isn't technically possible. Audio CDs must adhere to the red-book format of 16/44, if it doesn't then it's not an audio CD.

Looked it up and yes, it's a Hybrid disc. A standard audio CD with extra data on. Although I'm not sure how they managed to fit a 96/24 recording on a 700Mb CD.
 
No that isn't technically possible. Audio CDs must adhere to the red-book format of 16/44, if it doesn't then it's not an audio CD.

Looked it up and yes, it's a Hybrid disc. A standard audio CD with extra data on. Although I'm not sure how they managed to fit a 96/24 recording on a 700Mb CD.

Since it's just an up-sampled 16/44 recording I think it probably doesn't require too much extra data, that or they keep the play time down. I'm not sure how it works exactly either or wether it has any real sonic benefits, aside from possibly a smoother less harsh top end as they claim. But like I said earlier some of my well recorded regular 16 bit CD's can sound just as good.

I also had a CD player that was HDCD capable and I didn't like the sound of the HDCD's, though regular CD's sounded great through it.

I'm not even going to bother with SACD, I'm going to go the 24/96 FLAC route soon, and currently using Capriccio media player on my iPhone to play FLAC's through a Teac DA-H01 dock with the Burr Brown PCM 1796 DAC , it sounds really good though I'm sure a good high quality standalone USB D/A converter would a little better still.
 
WAV at 96/24 takes up the same size no matter what the source is. If you decode a 96kbps MP3 to 96/24 WAV it'll take up the same size as a genuine 96/24 file.

2 channels x 16-bit x 44.1khz = 1411.2kbps for red book which is approx 10Mb per minute, 600Mb per hour.
2 x 24 x 96 = 4608kbps for 96/24 which is approx 33Mb per minute, 2GB per hour.

So yeah, I'd be interested how that is working.

Well SACD and DVD-A are both dead formats, Blu-Ray audio is really the only physical high-res audio format now. Plus then you have things like hdtracks
 
If you take a 16/44 master and upsample it to 24/96 all you're doing is making the file larger. As soon as that file is at 16/44 it has already lost all the data. The difference between 16bit and 24bit is simply down to the ammount of seperate volume levels available. At 16bit you have 65,536 different possible levels of volume, at 24bit you have 16,777,216 possible levels of volume.The problem with older digital recordings is that they were recorded at 16/44 or 16/48 and for that reason they will never be better than that, not that there is anything wrong with 16/44 you get on a CD for most modern music anyway. When listening to highly compressed music such as modern rock, pop, metal or dance then like I said I would be hard pushed to believe anybody could tell the difference.

Taking into account higher frequencies like up at 96khz. 44khz is all that is needed to properly cover the frequency range of our hearing (20hz-20khz). Consider that by time we hit our 20s our hearing is already damaged enough that we cannot hear up to 20khz anymore. But even more important is the way music is recorded.

You look at the way most music is EQ'd and you will see that most of the top end is actually chopped off on individual parts, a mixing engineer is trying to create space in a mix to allow each part to sit comfortably and breath so it is common for anything not deemed necessary to be chopped away. That means perhaps cutting from 16K upwards from the guitars aswell as anything below 300hz completely removed, simular cuts commonly present on the vocals, you'd probably leave the cymbals on a live drumkit but some people will cut from those too, any electronic drum sounds will generally sit in very tight EQ pockets . Generally speaking all these sounds sit well within the frequency range between 20hz and 20khz, so having the quality set so high is often overkill, since even taking away the fact that we can't physically hear them it is common for them to be physically removed from the audio mix.

Old music recorded analogue and cut to a Vinyl has a certain charm about it and you can really feel (rather than hear) the dynamics, because there are no set ammount of volume levels, it is infinite and it is organic but it is also imperfect. A 24bit recording is pretty damn close to providing that, probably close enough that we could not tell the difference, infact almost certaintly. The issue though lies with the nature of modern music and the way it is recorded, the nature of digital recording itself, and the hardware we use to listen to it. Ultimately the quality of the music is much more down to the individual recordings, the mixing and the mastering, rather than whether it is 16bit or 24bit.


It's hard to really put it into words, old analogue recordings on Vinyl have a certain charm about them, though they can be noisy they do give a listening experience that is hard to really understand without experiencing it, probably due to the way that the volume levels are so organic, the dynamics are so much more noticeable and there is no "hard" clipping going on, the clipping is more of a soft warmth rather than the harsh sound of clipping on a digital record. Most modern music (almost all of which is digital) is pushed so hard that the job of the mastering is often about how best to hide the clipping and produce the loudest sound that will sound good across many systems, at which point any noticeable differences you would hear in the recording that 16bit vs 24bit could highlight are essencially squeezed out.





Bit of a ramble, I just meant to say that any record that started life as a 16bit is going to forever be a 16bit regardless if you upscale it, it now has the 24bit available volume level differences only that it is still sticking to the exact 16bit template, the data to make use of 24bit is missing. For reference I have a song I recorded/mastered at 24/44 and it is 76mb for 5mins, vs around 50mb for the 16/44 downscaled master.
 
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Pretty sure I have an audio magazine from a few years back that explains it, I'll have to dig through them and find it. Can't remember much of it.

Sorry I missed your post Bigbazz, thanks for the explanation. A good friend had a nice turntable setup playing through a pair of Acoustat's. Awesome sound !
 
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Hello, do you think this is the way forward with hi-fi or would the average listener ( me for instance ) not tell the difference ?.What are your thoughts on this.Would it be worth the money or not do you think ?.

Nath.

What do you mean by 'hi-fi?'

I'm of the opinion that CD's are good enough sound quality. What makes the difference is good mastering. Most music today is victim of the loudness war. Check it out on YouTube for a better explanation.

There are a lot of high-fidelity mediums you can go with like SACD, high-resolution downloads or even vinyl. I'm of the opinion a CD sounds good enough and I do have ~300 vinyl records and about 50 SACD's.

With digital, what makes all the difference is a good source. Rip your CD's to FLAC with EAC. It can also rip to WAV, then you just have to drag/drop into something like iTunes and convert to other formats.

A better DAC will also give you better sound quality. I have a Sansa Clip Zip with Rockbox, which sounds great. But when I listened to a friend's FiiO X3 that has a Wolfson DAC that will play 24-bit, 192khz music, the sound quality was much better.

A lot of people like the sound of vinyl. I don't. It's cool until you hear all the surface noise. A good vinyl shouldn't have any, but there's a lot of quality control issues with new vinyl unless you spend good money on quality pressings like those 180g ones or MFSL stuff.
 
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WAV at 96/24 takes up the same size no matter what the source is. If you decode a 96kbps MP3 to 96/24 WAV it'll take up the same size as a genuine 96/24 file.

2 channels x 16-bit x 44.1khz = 1411.2kbps for red book which is approx 10Mb per minute, 600Mb per hour.
2 x 24 x 96 = 4608kbps for 96/24 which is approx 33Mb per minute, 2GB per hour.

So yeah, I'd be interested how that is working.

Well SACD and DVD-A are both dead formats, Blu-Ray audio is really the only physical high-res audio format now. Plus then you have things like hdtracks


DVD-A is a dead format. SACD is not dead, but it never really went anywhere, it's more of a niche market than anything. I have a Sony BDP that will play them. I own near 50. I would not say they all sound better than a good CD though. The point was more or less surround sound music. Never understood why iTunes didn't try to grab some of that market with AAC which can support 6 channels.

As for WAV, it's just straight, uncompressed PCM. I would highly recommend using FLAC instead because it will produce the same sound quality with significant space savings. Some people say WAV sounds better but I think it's mostly nonsense unless you have an old piece of hardware or your software is buggy.

Also, you're right. Upconverting a 16/44 recording will do nothing to improve the sound quality.
 
DVD-A is a dead format. SACD is not dead, but it never really went anywhere, it's more of a niche market than anything.

Are they still being produced and sold? Genuine question, I've not seen one for years.

As for WAV, it's just straight, uncompressed PCM. I would highly recommend using FLAC instead because it will produce the same sound quality with significant space savings. Some people say WAV sounds better but I think it's mostly nonsense unless you have an old piece of hardware or your software is buggy.

Those people are obviously uninformed how playback of compressed formats work. When you play a FLAC file it is decoded to PCM, meaning it's exactly the same as opening the original WAV. MP3 and any compression format is decoded to PCM by your software player as well. That's the whole point of FLAC, lossless compression that isn't lost on playback, MP3 and any other lossy format of course does lose quality.

If anyone that says FLAC sounds worse than WAV it's all and their head. They're hearing the exact same data, bit for bit, on playback of both.
 
Are they still being produced and sold? Genuine question, I've not seen one for years.



Those people are obviously uninformed how playback of compressed formats work. When you play a FLAC file it is decoded to PCM, meaning it's exactly the same as opening the original WAV. MP3 and any compression format is decoded to PCM by your software player as well. That's the whole point of FLAC, lossless compression that isn't lost on playback, MP3 and any other lossy format of course does lose quality.

If anyone that says FLAC sounds worse than WAV it's all and their head. They're hearing the exact same data, bit for bit, on playback of both.


Yep SACD is still being produced and sold. DVD-A really is not. But it's more an 'audiophile' product/niche market. You can still get them through places like MFSL or Audio Fidelity. Usually the stuff isn't hugely better than original releases, but you're buying peace of mind with these 'audiophile' discs knowing that it's as good as it can be.

FLAC is lossless. I have heard claims that the real-time decompression into PCM affects sound quality though. I think it's a load of pooey though. I've never been able to hear a difference between a CD I ripped to FLAC and the same CD to WAV, with Exact Audio Copy. Even iTunes will turn out decent rips if the CD is in good shape.
 
Yeah I only see Blu-Ray audio these days, I've got a grand total of one DVD-A disc and no SACD. Neither really took off.

Like I said I agree with you on FLAC quality, it's a load of horse doo doo. You can test anyone that claims otherwise with a blind test, you can guarantee they won't be able to ID the FLAC or the WAV. It's all in their head.
 
Yeah I only see Blu-Ray audio these days, I've got a grand total of one DVD-A disc and no SACD. Neither really took off.

Like I said I agree with you on FLAC quality, it's a load of horse doo doo. You can test anyone that claims otherwise with a blind test, you can guarantee they won't be able to ID the FLAC or the WAV. It's all in their head.

The point of SACD, DVD-A and now BD Audio is supposed to be surround sound. Personally I don't feel like these high-resolution 24-bit recordings are really a huge step above a good CD. If there is a noticeable difference, it's usually because the mastering is that much better.
 
Indeed, especially with the loudness war mastering on most big label CDs these days. Sometimes the high-res version escapes and sounds better just for that. Not always though, the Blu-Ray audio of Nirvana's Nevermind uses the same brickwall master that was added on the 20th anniversary release.

The one DVD-A I have is Foo Fighters One By One and that features both a 5.1 and 2.0 mix at 88.2khz/24-Bit. The 2.0 isn't much better than the CD, still muddy as 🤬, but the 5.1 mix and master is much, much nicer. Not much to do with the higher res/bit-depth though as you say.

Overall I really don't think anything above 44.1khz/24-Bit is particularly neccesary but I would like to see that, in lossless form, because the digital norm, not the backwards step the world is currently on with MP3 and AAC.
 
Indeed, especially with the loudness war mastering on most big label CDs these days. Sometimes the high-res version escapes and sounds better just for that. Not always though, the Blu-Ray audio of Nirvana's Nevermind uses the same brickwall master that was added on the 20th anniversary release.

The one DVD-A I have is Foo Fighters One By One and that features both a 5.1 and 2.0 mix at 88.2khz/24-Bit. The 2.0 isn't much better than the CD, still muddy as 🤬, but the 5.1 mix and master is much, much nicer. Not much to do with the higher res/bit-depth though as you say.

Overall I really don't think anything above 44.1khz/24-Bit is particularly neccesary but I would like to see that, in lossless form, because the digital norm, not the backwards step the world is currently on with MP3 and AAC.

I've got the 2011 Immersion Edition Dark Side Of the Moon Box Set. It came with a CD, DVD-A and BD. The DVD-A and BD have some live performances as well as the 2011 stereo remaster, the 2003 SACD 5.1 master and the 1973 Quad master. The DVD-A is in 24-bits 48khz, BD is in 24-bits 96khz.

It sounds nice and I got it more or less because it's a collector item. As far as the sound quality goes, I think I still prefer my MFSL CD.

Then I've got a whole bunch of SACDs. The Rolling Stones ones I have, have really gone up in value. Also have a few Pink Floyd ones, whole bunch of jazz ones. I have 50 total.

CD's I've got maybe 400 or so, many original releases that my dad gave me. They moved, he thought iTunes was a lot more convenient so I took them in rather than see them sold off cheap at a garage sale.
 
What do you mean by 'hi-fi?'

I'm of the opinion that CD's are good enough sound quality. What makes the difference is good mastering. Most music today is victim of the loudness war. Check it out on YouTube for a better explanation.

There are a lot of high-fidelity mediums you can go with like SACD, high-resolution downloads or even vinyl. I'm of the opinion a CD sounds good enough and I do have ~300 vinyl records and about 50 SACD's.

With digital, what makes all the difference is a good source. Rip your CD's to FLAC with EAC. It can also rip to WAV, then you just have to drag/drop into something like iTunes and convert to other formats.

A better DAC will also give you better sound quality. I have a Sansa Clip Zip with Rockbox, which sounds great. But when I listened to a friend's FiiO X3 that has a Wolfson DAC that will play 24-bit, 192khz music, the sound quality was much better.

A lot of people like the sound of vinyl. I don't. It's cool until you hear all the surface noise. A good vinyl shouldn't have any, but there's a lot of quality control issues with new vinyl unless you spend good money on quality pressings like those 180g ones or MFSL stuff.

Do you plan on getting the Fiio X5? I don't know if I should get the iBasso DX50 or the X5. :/
 
Do you plan on getting the Fiio X5? I don't know if I should get the iBasso DX50 or the X5. :/

I don't think I am going to. I already have my Sansa Clip Zip running Rockbox and the sound quality is good enough for me. Drives my Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones well enough. The X3 is really all you need. I believe it's got one of the better Wolfson DAC's that can play up to 24/192 and it's supposed to sound really good. I'd probably go for that if you're interested in a portable hi-fi player.

The iBasso is a rip off. The X3 is $200 new. Much more affordable.
 
Do you plan on getting the Fiio X5? I don't know if I should get the iBasso DX50 or the X5. :/
I wish you hadn't reminded me about the X5, now I feel like earning some money for one, and I'm already working towards buying a cMoy.
 
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